Worst case scenario and Sens tank again- what's the next step?

[Cosmix]

The Sens would be a playoff team if Batherson and Norris could manage that!

I don't think so, as that would mean the one of the top 2 lines would not be doing very well. Both those young lads need to up their game.

 

[DueDiligence]

I don't think so, as that would mean the one of the top 2 lines would not be doing very well. Both those young lads need to up their game.

Right now Batherson and Norris are minus 6 and minus 5 respectively. That's probably worth 3-4 points right there. Make them even players over the course of the season and the team makes the playoffs.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I suspected that this would be the rebuttal. But, just to pick up on one of the examples, Boston currently has Pastrnak and I don't think we have a forward on that level yet. And that Chara guy was a stalwart, stud defensive defender for their earlier Cup team. Las Vegas have a stud in Eichel which I think some folks tend to underestimate. I'm not sure we have an equivalent of a Pastrnak, Chara or Eichel just yet. And I stayed away from mentioning Edmonton (McDavid) and Toronto (Matthews) because I knew what kind of rebuttal was coming. Edmonton and Toronto are easy rebuttals because they are weak on defense and in net. Hence, I deliberately avoided mentioning them because the deficiencies were too easy to identify.

I don't consider Pastrnak or Eichel significantly better than the path that Stutzle is on. Both exceptional players but I think it is fair to say that they occupy the tier Stutzle is expected to hit. I get that you said YET so yeah, I'm projecting but with a younger team further behind in their cycle I think projecting is kind of the point. Nobody is saying we are there now, definitely not me.

Chara yes but Sando is trending toward Norris nominations so other than not being the biggest freak of nature that ever played the game, Sando is still a number 1 dman. But as you point to Chara I point to Milan Lucic being the leading scorer of that BOS team. That team reinforces my argument to a tee.

I know you didnt bring up TO and EDM because it can be low hanging fruit from the side I'm arguing. But I'm not using it for the D and G reasons. I genuinely believe and have said for a long time that they aren't perfectly built up front. EDM especially. They will not win unless their third and fourth lines can carve out an identity. When your gameplay is so heavily focused on the talents of two players (or a PP unit etc...) others can get left behind. Your gameplan in practice caters so much to the style of play of those top lines the others can't even come close to replicating and they don't end up carving out an identity. You need to be playing a similar game top to bottom, coming in waves like LA is this year and not giving the opposition any breaks. That is hard to instill when you have superstars monopolizing the offensive coaching strategies.

TOR is different but they lack leadership and character and I see the same stuff where its Matthews and Marners way or the highway. Knies and Robertson could do wonders to change that and honestly, a guy like Noah Gregor is massive in creating an identity on the lower lines. But there is a reason why Bertuzzi and Domi havent really had the impact they had hoped and it's because it is hard to pay in the shadow of superstars. It can change the team dynamic and thats why I don't think it is the be all end all. I know you agree to a certain extent.

Having said that, you are right that there isn't one singular formula for winning a Cup.

I would argue however that you need superior depth throughout the lineup if you don't have the upper echelon players at key positions. Two of the examples demonstrate that principle well, namely St. Louis and Boston. I don't know we have that kind of quality depth yet, but that would be more difficult to figure out. But, if you use Boston as an example, Marchand, Bergeron and McAvoy may not be classic superstars, but they would be pretty close and they have a good number of players on their roster at that level.

Depth is 100% the answer an we are getting there. The new Joseph on the third line is exactly what you want and I think him and Pinto would be a Stanley Cup calibre 3rd. 4th line is a work in progress. I like Chartier but thats about it. But I will say this- depth is as much about coaching as anything. A good coach can get a ton out of a good mix on the bottom lines. This is happening in Vancouver this year where those bottom lines are playing near perfect hockey.

For those reason and others I just don't think we are that far off. We need a new coach to see but I bet you we will all be pleasantly surprised, especially next year.

 

[Cosmix]

I don't consider Pastrnak or Eichel significantly better than the path that Stutzle is on. Both exceptional players but I think it is fair to say that they occupy the tier Stutzle is expected to hit. I get that you said YET so yeah, I'm projecting but with a younger team further behind in their cycle I think projecting is kind of the point. Nobody is saying we are there now, definitely not me.

Chara yes but Sando is trending toward Norris nominations so other than not being the biggest freak of nature that ever played the game, Sando is still a number 1 dman. But as you point to Chara I point to Milan Lucic being the leading scorer of that BOS team. That team reinforces my argument to a tee.

I know you didnt bring up TO and EDM because it can be low hanging fruit from the side I'm arguing. But I'm not using it for the D and G reasons. I genuinely believe and have said for a long time that they aren't perfectly built up front. EDM especially. They will not win unless their third and fourth lines can carve out an identity. When your gameplay is so heavily focused on the talents of two players (or a PP unit etc...) others can get left behind. Your gameplan in practice caters so much to the style of play of those top lines the others can't even come close to replicating and they don't end up carving out an identity. You need to be playing a similar game top to bottom, coming in waves like LA is this year and not giving the opposition any breaks. That is hard to instill when you have superstars monopolizing the offensive coaching strategies.

TOR is different but they lack leadership and character and I see the same stuff where its Matthews and Marners way or the highway. Knies and Robertson could do wonders to change that and honestly, a guy like Noah Gregor is massive in creating an identity on the lower lines. But there is a reason why Bertuzzi and Domi havent really had the impact they had hoped and it's because it is hard to pay in the shadow of superstars. It can change the team dynamic and thats why I don't think it is the be all end all. I know you agree to a certain extent.


Depth is 100% the answer an we are getting there. The new Joseph on the third line is exactly what you want and I think him and Pinto would be a Stanley Cup calibre 3rd. 4th line is a work in progress. I like Chartier but thats about it. But I will say this- depth is as much about coaching as anything. A good coach can get a ton out of a good mix on the bottom lines. This is happening in Vancouver this year where those bottom lines are playing near perfect hockey.

For those reason and others I just don't think we are that far off. We need a new coach to see but I bet you we will all be pleasantly surprised, especially next year.

I don't think that a team needs to play a "similar game top to bottom" to be successful. The skill sets of 4th liners versus 1st liners is so different that playing the same way will likely not work.

Right now Batherson and Norris are minus 6 and minus 5 respectively. That's probably worth 3-4 points right there. Make them even players over the course of the season and the team makes the playoffs.

How do you calculate that?

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Whatever the worst case scenario is, I think we're in it.

 

[Karl Prime]

The NHL has seen too many new coaches turn around struggling teams that on paper should be doing better that I wouldn't touch the core until we see a good experienced coach come in and instill some discipline.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

 

[Snuggs]

You hate to see at as a Red Wings fan...

ALL seriousness... while it's off the tracks this year, next offseason/year looks like a bounce back year. Lots of talent on the team, and idk, new GM can always go and sign a Nylander in UFA making this team ridiculous with some top picks in the pipeline. (Exaggeration with Nylander but you catch the drift)

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Whatever the worst case scenario is, I think we're in it.

 

[Big Muddy]

I don't consider Pastrnak or Eichel significantly better than the path that Stutzle is on. Both exceptional players but I think it is fair to say that they occupy the tier Stutzle is expected to hit. I get that you said YET so yeah, I'm projecting but with a younger team further behind in their cycle I think projecting is kind of the point. Nobody is saying we are there now, definitely not me.

Yes, I suppose your emphasis was on "projections" whereas mine was based on historical data with regards to what these players have produced.

I hope you are right.

Stutzle looks off this year and I've been wondering if he has an injury that is nagging him.

As for the near term, we need to win these games at-hand at a high rate. Last night was the latest disappointment and another lost opportunity to creep up in the standings.

 

[jhutter]

Worst case? It's almost a certainty at this point.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

We had a GM that traded us out of high 1st round picks 2 years in a row and the year before that reached for a player who hasn't shown much with a top 10 pick. The rebuild was not over. It's still not over. It's messed up.

 

[dumbdick]

I honestly think we just need a new coach and that's it. The on-ice personnel is fine.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes, I suppose your emphasis was on "projections" whereas mine was based on historical data with regards to what these players have produced.

I hope you are right.

Stutzle looks off this year and I've been wondering if he has an injury that is nagging him.

As for the near term, we need to win these games at-hand at a high rate. Last night was the latest disappointment and another lost opportunity to creep up in the standings.

Yes he must have an injury, that’s why he missed a lot of practices recently.
And not taking as many many face offs recently.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

The next logical move is a new coach.

I like the idea of bringing in somebody for the rest of the season, trying something new. If the struggle continues into next season, then you have to look at making a substantial trade.

Moving out a top 6 guy, or a top 4 defenseman. Need to send a message to the team.

 

[bicboi64]

Get as much value as you can for Kubalik, Tarasenko (unless they both want to stay at a fair price), and try running it back with a health roster and new coach.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't think tanking will be an option here. We should look to pick mid first with our pick and late first with the Boston pick.

 

[dumbdick]

Worst case scenario and Sens tank again- what's the next step?​

Are you familiar with Jonestown?

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

I honestly think we just need a new coach and that's it. The on-ice personnel is fine.

I would at least try a new coach first before just lighting the whole team on fire. It's the one thing that hasn't been changed that I think has potential to make a difference. So change it, see, and if nothing changes --- then look at the personnel.

I would hope that the team gets a new coach by the new year (or latest mid Jan) and then sees how the rest of the year plays out. If still sub-par, then you make a change. But if not, you test out the new coach for a bit longer.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I would at least try a new coach first before just lighting the whole team on fire. It's the one thing that hasn't been changed that I think has potential to make a difference. So change it, see, and if nothing changes --- then look at the personnel.

I would hope that the team gets a new coach by the new year (or latest mid Jan) and then sees how the rest of the year plays out. If still sub-par, then you make a change. But if not, you test out the new coach for a bit longer.

Well, Staios just brought JM back into the organization…. I think it’s only logical to let him analyse the team, and the coaching staff, for at least 7 or 8 games and try to help the coaching staff, and players as much as he can within a reasonable time frame.

And if there are no tangible improvements or his advise is falling on deaf ears (of the coaching staff) then a coaching change could come into play…. But let’s give it some time, they’d not even assigned JM a parking spot yet.

 

[Bileur]

Get as much value as you can for Kubalik, Tarasenko (unless they both want to stay at a fair price), and try running it back with a health roster and new coach.

Tarasenko sure, Kubalik isn’t a needed piece.

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

Well, Staios just brought JM back into the organization…. I think it’s only logical to let him analyse the team, and the coaching staff, for at least 7 or 8 games and try to help the coaching staff, and players as much as he can within a reasonable time frame.

And if there are no tangible improvements or his advise is falling on deaf ears (of the coaching staff) then a coaching change could come into play…. But let’s give it some time, they’d not even assigned JM a parking spot yet.

I said until mid Jan. If we aren't going on a win streak with what we have in place, I wouldn't let it go now than 5-6 weeks.