Worst case scenario and Sens tank again- what's the next step?

[Beech]

I’m definitely not the one to ask about Mews, haven’t seen him play outside of a game or two on TV over the past 2 years.

Lots of people here would have seen a lot of him with him playing in Ottawa, should be a be a large number of posters who’d have a much better idea than I would.

Kenny Walls must have seen this post.

At game's end. he spoke about Meows. And about his draft status.

I guess he has been downgraded on some evaluation sites to a second rounder.. If so, that is a fantastic drop and would not justify a move into the middle of the first to get him.

He may be available at the top of the second round. In which case, it will be tricky for teh Sens to move up.

17 years old, quarterbacked the powerplay against Kingston and was the first star!

 

[Ouroboros]

New GM at some point in the next 6-8 months
New coaching staff
Overhauled scouting staff
Overhauled AHL affiliate
Fill out the analytics staff

Get what you can for Tarasenko, Kubalik, Brannstrom
Make some changes to the core [Batherson, Chabot/Chychrun, maybe ask Giroux where he'd like to go]
Need more size and nastiness on defense
Need bigger, faster, more skilled role players in the bottom-six. No more Chartier, Highmore, Kelly types.

 

[Ice-Tray]

What's next? Sell your remaining tickets to the biggest sucker that you can find.

I wish I could go to games, even the ones where they suck.

New GM at some point in the next 6-8 months
New coaching staff
Overhauled scouting staff
Overhauled AHL affiliate
Fill out the analytics staff

Get what you can for Tarasenko, Kubalik, Brannstrom
Make some changes to the core [Batherson, Chabot/Chychrun, maybe ask Giroux where he'd like to go]
Need more size and nastiness on defense
Need bigger, faster, more skilled role players in the bottom-six. No more Chartier, Highmore, Kelly types.

We don’t need an analytics staff. We have the quality hire in place, and we have a sports logiq subscription.

You don’t need a staff to interpret data, you need one good person to do it so that coaches can see and understand what they need.

 

[SensHulk]

If we’re in a tanking situation again, I question if this core is actually the correct one. Need a shakeup to the roster (and of course cleaning house on coaching staff)

 

[Sun God Nika]

I would be fine trading a top 10 pick if it lands us a youngish ppg winger with term.(4+yrs under contract) a player like Keller

 

[Big Muddy]

I would be fine trading a top 10 pick if it lands us a youngish ppg winger with term.(4+yrs under contract) a player like Keller

I suppose moving a pick is an option. I'd prefer getting a winger via free agency if possible. We've been moving our 1st rounders (+) for several years now. It would be nice to have some quality prospects in the system and good ELCs to fill holes in the future.

 

[OccidentalSoothsayer]

If they tank or rollover this season the next step is the new GM makes MAJOR roster changes. These guys need to show some pushback the rest of the year or I won't be sad to see any of the shipped out.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Best thing to do now is wait until Pierre comes back and fixes this with another owner group.

...or develop some sort of lower expectations for the organization as a whole

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

I dono, remember what “we want playoffs” did to this group? They imploded

“we don’t want playoffs” doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue.

 

[bert]

Mentally preparing for the worst case scenario- say the team doesn't get out of its inconsistency issues, what happens? Does Staios start trading our top players for draft picks and we start another rebuild? Or is the general consensus that a few changes here and there (i.e. new coach, or whatever) and we'll be back in business next season?

Is this the worst case scenario? Its better to finish bottom 5 then 12th last.

What's next? Sell your remaining tickets to the biggest sucker that you can find.

Ughhhh Gonna take a massive loss. My tickets re sell about 66% of what I pay for them already unless its the leafs or habs for the most part.

 

[bert]

New GM at some point in the next 6-8 months
New coaching staff
Overhauled scouting staff
Overhauled AHL affiliate
Fill out the analytics staff

Get what you can for Tarasenko, Kubalik, Brannstrom
Make some changes to the core [Batherson, Chabot/Chychrun, maybe ask Giroux where he'd like to go]
Need more size and nastiness on defense
Need bigger, faster, more skilled role players in the bottom-six. No more Chartier, Highmore, Kelly types.

The 4th line has been fine its been the most consistent one. Nothing wrong with those players in a 4th line role.

This type of tear down is not necessary at all. Like Bondra said you trade the expiring deals if they are out of it come trade deadline.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I would be fine trading a top 10 pick if it lands us a youngish ppg winger with term.(4+yrs under contract) a player like Keller

Looks like we may be picking higher

 

[Cosmix]

Mentally preparing for the worst case scenario- say the team doesn't get out of its inconsistency issues, what happens? Does Staios start trading our top players for draft picks and we start another rebuild? Or is the general consensus that a few changes here and there (i.e. new coach, or whatever) and we'll be back in business next season?

I think a few changes, not a complete rebuild.

Hells no.

We trade expiring contracts like Tank and Kubalik to contenders, and maybe see if any peripheral guys generate interest.

The core stays, we draft high, get new staff from top to bottom, and then win the cup.

That’s how I see things play out if we flop.

The only thing that is unlikely is "win the cup". The rest seems sensible to me.

 

[swiftwin]

The 4th line has been fine its been the most consistent one. Nothing wrong with those players in a 4th line role.

This type of tear down is not necessary at all. Like Bondra said you trade the expiring deals if they are out of it come trade deadline.

Completely agree.

I really don't understand the Chartier hate. He's been very very good in his role on the 4th line. Before we had him on the 4th line, we'd often see at least one shift per game where 4th line was getting caved in, stuck on the ice for 1:30-2 minutes. I honestly can't remember a time this has happened with Chartier on the 4th line. He has stabilized that line so much. Those are the types of players you need on your 4th line to win games.

 

[Cosmix]

The 4th line has been fine its been the most consistent one. Nothing wrong with those players in a 4th line role.

This type of tear down is not necessary at all. Like Bondra said you trade the expiring deals if they are out of it come trade deadline.

I agree. It is easy to say you want better players on the 4th line since those players are likely just above AHL level due to the salary dollars available. Everyone wants better players there. I just want the GF-GA at ES to be 0 or above.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Completely agree.

I really don't understand the Chartier hate. He's been very very good in his role on the 4th line. Before we had him on the 4th line, we'd often see at least one shift per game where 4th line was getting caved in, stuck on the ice for 1:30-2 minutes. I honestly can't remember a time this has happened with Chartier on the 4th line. He has stabilized that line so much. Those are the types of players you need on your 4th line to win games.

He's sure as shit looked a hell of a lot better than Kastelic did before he got hurt. Chartier holds his own, but probably more suited for 4th C than 3 C with 2 snipers.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Is there actually a trade Norris crowd emerging?

14 games removed from a nearly year long recovery and on pace for 59 points while still trying to find chemistry with his line mates...

Yeah, let's give up on that and magically replace his two way top line goal scoring presence in a 'hockey trade.'

 

[Loach]

Is there actually a trade Norris crowd emerging?

14 games removed from a nearly year long recovery and on pace for 59 points while still trying to find chemistry with his line mates...

Yeah, let's give up on that and magically replace his two way top line goal scoring presence in a 'hockey trade.'

Bobby Ryan said the team needs a shake up, can't have 6 guys making 8m and be at the bottom. I'm guessing he included Sanderson, when his new deal starts, and Chychrun on a new deal. Brady, Timmy, Chabby, Joshy, Sandy, Chychy. See what I did there? See it? Lol. I'm not saying it's Norris. Like you said, let's give the guy a chance to play some games. It is an interesting discussion about changing the core though.

 

[Big Muddy]

I'd wonder if one of Norris/Pinto/Grieg could switch to wing and play on the 2nd line? If/when Tarasenko leaves you have $5 m to work with to fill that 2nd line winger slot and that even covers a good chunk of Norris cap hit (plus a rising cap ceiling to help cover the rest).

 

[DueDiligence]

I agree. It is easy to say you want better players on the 4th line since those players are likely just above AHL level due to the salary dollars available. Everyone wants better players there. I just want the GF-GA at ES to be 0 or above.

The Sens would be a playoff team if Batherson and Norris could manage that!

 

[PlayersLtd]

Bobby Ryan said the team needs a shake up, can't have 6 guys making 8m and be at the bottom. I'm guessing he included Sanderson, when his new deal starts, and Chychrun on a new deal. Brady, Timmy, Chabby, Joshy, Sandy, Chychy. See what I did there? See it? Lol. I'm not saying it's Norris. Like you said, let's give the guy a chance to play some games. It is an interesting discussion about changing the core though.

It would be an interesting discussion if we weren't discussing a coaching change at the same time I suppose. With both happening simultaneously and guys like Norris and Giroux being treated as dispensable it definitely sounds like people have gone off the deep end with how they would manage this team.

Batherson I understand although I don't support because his contract is good. Chabot I understand although I don't support because the pros outweigh the cons. Norris though?

Under new coaching it is very likely that this team begins playing to it's potential. The individual talents by and large are not the problem and at this point you can't bite off your nose to spite your face. We have a long list of untouchables and Norris is on it imo because you just KNOW he is exactly the type of player contending teams need.

 

[Big Muddy]

It would be an interesting discussion if we weren't discussing a coaching change at the same time I suppose. With both happening simultaneously and guys like Norris and Giroux being treated as dispensable it definitely sounds like people have gone off the deep end with how they would manage this team.

Batherson I understand although I don't support because his contract is good. Chabot I understand although I don't support because the pros outweigh the cons. Norris though?

Under new coaching it is very likely that this team begins playing to it's potential. The individual talents by and large are not the problem and at this point you can't bite off your nose to spite your face. We have a long list of untouchables and Norris is on it imo because you just KNOW he is exactly the type of player contending teams need.

I'm not disagreeing with the points you are making.

I am however asking a question. How good is this core really?

I'm not doubting there's talent there as there definitely is. But, how does that talent level compare with the best teams i.e., let's say the top 30 percentile? Or, to go up a notch to the top of the mountain, is it Cup contender or Cup championship level?

Is our best forward (Stutzle presumably) at the same level as a McKinnon or a Crosby? I could have mentioned McDavid or even Matthews but it would be prone to the lazy rebuttal that those 2 players haven't won anything. Is our best defenseman (Sanderson presumably) at the same level as a Makar or Hedman if we were to look at it from this perspective?

The reason I ask is because this has never been tested and we just don't know the answer to this question. We've been rebuilding or there's been something that clouds this issue. So, it seems like we just don't know.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Worst case scenario is always going to be players like Stutzle, Sanderson and Tkachuk giving up and asking out.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I'm not disagreeing with the points you are making.

I am however asking a question. How good is this core really?

I'm not doubting there's talent there as there definitely is. But, how does that talent level compare with the best teams i.e., let's say the top 30 percentile? Or, to go up a notch to the top of the mountain, is it Cup contender or Cup championship level?

Is our best forward (Stutzle presumably) at the same level as a McKinnon or a Crosby? I could have mentioned McDavid or even Matthews but it would be prone to the lazy rebuttal that those 2 players haven't won anything. Is our best defenseman (Sanderson presumably) at the same level as a Makar or Hedman if we were to look at it from this perspective?

The reason I ask is because this has never been tested and we just don't know the answer to this question. We've been rebuilding or there's been something that clouds this issue. So, it seems like we just don't know.

Fair. But I'm a firm believer that Stanley Cups are not won on paper. This team has the talent to match a lot of cup winners of recent past such as BOS, STL and LV.

Superstars are not a prerequisite to a cup. In fact, going one step further I've argued before that in some cases they can be detrimental to a cup. Building a game plan around 1 or 2 players like EDM does can alienate the rest of the team in terms of execution, particularly the bottom 6. I think TOR is victim to this too. You end up with a system that is less adaptable in my opinion and doesn't have an identity. Of course superstars aren't to be overlooked but winning by committee is an equal formula at the very least, maybe even better.

Is that easy to do? Definitely not. You need a really good blend of players who may not be top 5 league wide but have nonetheless a lot of high end talent, you need an excellent coach, you need buy in, you need an excellent culture and you need luck.

From day 1 we have all watched what Dorion was building and I think those who have defended him have done so because they think this is the type of formula that is being built. I did and still do. I think this team is really well built and the hard work is more or less done with the exception of coaching, a solid 4th line and the right usage on D.

We're in a rut right now but I don't think it is indicative of the team overall. We have seen exceptionally high morale and chemistry at times, we saw a top 3 power play last year, we have seen the makings of a really strong third line and we see all the time that the guys want to play for each other and I'm confident we have the individual talents.

I don't think we are that far off and I definitely don't think that we need a shake up beyond coaching and some off season tweaking. Teams built like this can win the cup and that isn't based on delusion or bias, we have seen it and we see a bunch of good teams league wide going after the same thing- CAR for one, DAL, VAN etc...

It's coaching. It's all coaching and DJ isn't getting hit done. Add a new coach and watch this team spark and go on a streak. Add the perfect coach (by chance) and I guarantee this team is only a few tweaks and some player development away from contending.

 

[Big Muddy]

Fair. But I'm a firm believer that Stanley Cups are not won on paper. This team has the talent to match a lot of cup winners of recent past such as BOS, STL and LV.

Superstars are not a prerequisite to a cup. In fact, going one step further I've argued before that in some cases they can be detrimental to a cup. Building a game plan around 1 or 2 players like EDM does can alienate the rest of the team in terms of execution, particularly the bottom 6. I think TOR is victim to this too. You end up with a system that is less adaptable in my opinion and doesn't have an identity. Of course superstars aren't to be overlooked but winning by committee is an equal formula at the very least, maybe even better.

I suspected that this would be the rebuttal. But, just to pick up on one of the examples, Boston currently has Pastrnak and I don't think we have a forward on that level yet. And that Chara guy was a stalwart, stud defensive defender for their earlier Cup team. Las Vegas have a stud in Eichel which I think some folks tend to underestimate. I'm not sure we have an equivalent of a Pastrnak, Chara or Eichel just yet. And I stayed away from mentioning Edmonton (McDavid) and Toronto (Matthews) because I knew what kind of rebuttal was coming. Edmonton and Toronto are easy rebuttals because they are weak on defense and in net. Hence, I deliberately avoided mentioning them because the deficiencies were too easy to identify.

Having said that, you are right that there isn't one singular formula for winning a Cup.

I would argue however that you need superior depth throughout the lineup if you don't have the upper echelon players at key positions. Two of the examples demonstrate that principle well, namely St. Louis and Boston. I don't know we have that kind of quality depth yet, but that would be more difficult to figure out. But, if you use Boston as an example, Marchand, Bergeron and McAvoy may not be classic superstars, but they would be pretty close and they have a good number of players on their roster at that level.