Post-Game Talk: World Junior Championships 2020 in the Czech Republic: Canada Wins 2020 Gold

Who are your three podium teams?


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newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
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That says above the ice surface.

And in my post it says "theres pictures of the camera actually hanging over the ice as well", you must've missed that part. And it included a head official former one of the top IIHF refs saying the rule was interpreted properly by how the IIHF calls that rule. Do you think he has a better handle on how the rule is supposed to be called than you do?

200105Finaali2127.jpg
 
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lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
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Russia lost in close game, just deal with it , get over. We should discuss more about prospects .
So , #2 position is wide open
 
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Shaman464

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May 1, 2009
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Veleno had like 5 pts in 7 games, while being snake bitten in several games. His offence was fine, but he shone defensively in this tournament, which was likely his role in the first place, seeing as Hunter played him a ton.

Can't believe blaming the refs for Russia's loss. They had 4 of the first 5 power-plays and 5 of the first 7, with two of them for sure absolutely weak calls. Also where was the ridiculous diving call on their goalie as he was getting scored on? He was definitely going for 5 or 6 Oscar's with his tumble after his own guy bumped into him. Also trying to draw a goalie interference for overturning a goal, when his own defenders skate slightly interfered with him. I also enjoyed how the captain who called out Hayton for the helmet just a week ago, takes an embarrassing penalty at the end of the game, because he came unglued.

If you want to watch some great flopping, go watch Canada vs Slovakia, as the Slovaks were soccer acting on a lot of plays in the quarters.

Veleno has been snake bitten most of his career. He's had one great offensive season as a D+1. Most of his track record to date has been as a great defensive center with decent, but not great, offense. My hope he is he anchors the third line, and top PK unit and is 20/20/40 while doing it. If they get that, and find someone to anchor the top 6 with Larkin, Detroit will have very good center depth, and will take a lot of pressure off of finding some amazing goalie.
 
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ArmChairGM89

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Dec 10, 2019
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I don't see Veleno being a 60 point guy. He seems more like a 30-45 point guy who plays stellar defense. Still a great end of first round pick, and a player Detroit needs badly.

he’s on pace for 33 points and it’s the first 30 games of his first pro season. I think 30-45 is low for his prime years. I could see him touching 60. Likely in the 50’s for his career avg imo.
 
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Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Wasn't disappointed with any Wings prospect. But definitely reinforces my belief that Veleno will be basically like peak Draper. Good for 0.3-0.5 ppg, Selke defense, and good on faceoffs.

Solid 2C or great 3C. Barring a continuation of him knocking his development out of the park, that's what I have always seen him as.
 

nhlisawesome

Registered User
Oct 26, 2019
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Veleno is going to play selke caliber defence at the NHL level? Here we go again with the hyperbole, you guys do know that he has one of the worst +/- in the AHL right?
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,271
14,770
Veleno is going to play selke caliber defence at the NHL level? Here we go again with the hyperbole, you guys do know that he has one of the worst +/- in the AHL right?

He's 19 and the Griffins have had arguably the worst goaltending in the entire AHL...
 
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Shaman464

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he’s on pace for 33 points and it’s the first 30 games of his first pro season. I think 30-45 is low for his prime years. I could see him touching 60. Likely in the 50’s for his career avg imo.

That's not the type of output you'd expect from a guy good for 0.75 ppg in the NHL. He's averaging 0.4 ppg now. Less than Seider. He's 60th in rookie ppg right now. That's not impressive scoring. Zadina's 0.60 ppg last season (with him being a year younger) caused people to hit the panic button.
 

Shaman464

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Solid 2C or great 3C. Barring a continuation of him knocking his development out of the park, that's what I have always seen him as.

I see him as a Draper style guy. He's going to be very good in his own zone, and not a slouch in the offensive zone, but so far I believe his offensive output will be what keeps him outside the top 6 if Detroit has a roster capable of contention.
 

ArmChairGM89

Registered User
Dec 10, 2019
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That's not the type of output you'd expect from a guy good for 0.75 ppg in the NHL. He's averaging 0.4 ppg now. Less than Seider. He's 60th in rookie ppg right now. That's not impressive scoring. Zadina's 0.60 ppg last season (with him being a year younger) caused people to hit the panic button.

that’s because people are stupid
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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I see him as a Draper style guy. He's going to be very good in his own zone, and not a slouch in the offensive zone, but so far I believe his offensive output will be what keeps him outside the top 6 if Detroit has a roster capable of contention.

That's misleading for a number of reasons. Draper was a 3C/4C that may have well slotted higher on other teams.

So I don't really know what you're going for there. I think Veleno will be a similar level player to guys like Derek Stepan, Antoine Vermette, etc. A guy you definitely don't want centering your 1st line, more than capable of centering your 2nd line, and would absolutely shine centering your 3rd line.

His puckhandling and playmaking abilities are good enough to slot him up or down your lineup.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
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That's not impressive scoring. Zadina's 0.60 ppg last season (with him being a year younger) caused people to hit the panic button.
Tends to happen when one is a 6OA and the other is like the last pick of the 1st round.

You panic if your 1OA has a .6PPG in the AHL but you are absolutely ecstatic if your 3rd rounder has .5PPG in the AHL.

It's a difference of expectations given context and it's both fair and warranted.
 

raymond23

Go Griffs Go
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Sep 28, 2017
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Veleno is going to be able to play defense and transport the puck. He’s already doing that at a good rate in GR.

What remains to be seen is his scoring prowess. Sometimes I have doubts at how consistently effective he’ll be in the offensive zone but there is definitely potential there to be a big time player.
 

Barry Amsterdam

Nättias Dänielstrom
Apr 2, 2013
5,474
4,841
Veleno is going to be able to play defense and transport the puck. He’s already doing that at a good rate in GR.

What remains to be seen is his scoring prowess. Sometimes I have doubts at how consistently effective he’ll be in the offensive zone but there is definitely potential there to be a big time player.

could have a similar career path as couturier in philly.
40 pts to start and gradually get offense
 
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Shaman464

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That's misleading for a number of reasons. Draper was a 3C/4C that may have well slotted higher on other teams.

So I don't really know what you're going for there. I think Veleno will be a similar level player to guys like Derek Stepan, Antoine Vermette, etc. A guy you definitely don't want centering your 1st line, more than capable of centering your 2nd line, and would absolutely shine centering your 3rd line.

His puckhandling and playmaking abilities are good enough to slot him up or down your lineup.
I just don't see him making the cut as a top 6 guy on a good team. I think his natural offensive ability is his weakest point, and with his ability to see the game well defensively it will make him a guy you see playing on a depth scoring line and killing penalties. I don't think this is a knock on him, I just don't see him being a 50-60 point guy.
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
Jun 23, 2018
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Top Secret Moon Base
I thought Veleno only played 6gp...

#WJC stats
Joe Veleno (CAN)
- 7 games, 1+5, +3, 21 SOG, 8 PIM, 19:13 TOI/game

Mortiz Seider (GER)
- 7 games, 0+6, +/- 0, 21 SOG, 6 PIM, 25:20 TOI/game

Jonatan Berggren (SWE)
- 7 games, 1+4, +1, 5 SOG, 2 PIM, 10:46 TOI/game​

Jared McIsaac (CAN)
- 7 games, 1+3, +4, 7 SOG, 8 PIM, 16:07 TOI/game

Jesper Eliasson (SWE)
- 1 game, 1 win, 89.47%, 2.00 GAA
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,503
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I just don't see him making the cut as a top 6 guy on a good team. I think his natural offensive ability is his weakest point, and with his ability to see the game well defensively it will make him a guy you see playing on a depth scoring line and killing penalties. I don't think this is a knock on him, I just don't see him being a 50-60 point guy.

This may get into a semantics based argument, but let's assume that Veleno's career falls routinely between 40-50 points. And in theory, there are 62 top 6 centers in the sport. Just exporting data from Hockey-Reference, sorting by point totals, and removing all players not listed as a center, I have the cut off being 47 points in 2018-19. Now this is not at all representative of reality because of the inaccuracy of players listed as center.

For example, this list considers: Huberdeau, Guentzel, Hoffman, Reinhart, Tatar, Dzingel, Oshie, Forsberg, Kreider, Konecny, Athanasiou as centers, which we know they realistically spend a majority of their time lined up on the wing. Regardless, let's add 10 names to the list to account for the "positional indifference" of the data set. That brings us down to...the Alex Kerfoot/Cody Eakin type which is the 41/42 point threshold.

Considering the projection of Veleno as a plus defensive center, who wins draws, skates well, and gains the offensive zone well, there is no reason to think he isn't in the discussion of a second line center. We also can consider how much deployment can influence production. An example being: Justin Abdelkader Circa 2014-2016. Put Abby near the top playing 18 minutes a night with Datsyuk consistently creating points for him, looks like a serviceable second line level player. Remove the straw that stirs the drink, you get a shell of a player. If you are electing to put Veleno down the lineup to play with someone like Adam Erne and Evgeny Svechnikov, you will create the 30 point defensive center you are suggesting him to be. Put him on the second line with Filip Zadina or Anthony Mantha or Alexis Lafreniere, you are likely creating the two way center who will be on the higher end of the point spectrum.

The state of the team is going to go a long way in determining what Veleno is going to be; if the Wings come out of the draft with QB, you have to believe that Veleno is positioned to be among the best 3rd line centers at his peak, and if Veleno is worked into the lineup next year early and plays 2nd line center out of necessity, he may show enough that the team is comfortable building with him in mind.

For reference, here's an old article from 2011 discussing production by position and line.

Common Misconceptions: How Much Should That Forward Score?
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,271
4,466
Boston, MA
This may get into a semantics based argument, but let's assume that Veleno's career falls routinely between 40-50 points. And in theory, there are 62 top 6 centers in the sport. Just exporting data from Hockey-Reference, sorting by point totals, and removing all players not listed as a center, I have the cut off being 47 points in 2018-19. Now this is not at all representative of reality because of the inaccuracy of players listed as center.

For example, this list considers: Huberdeau, Guentzel, Hoffman, Reinhart, Tatar, Dzingel, Oshie, Forsberg, Kreider, Konecny, Athanasiou as centers, which we know they realistically spend a majority of their time lined up on the wing. Regardless, let's add 10 names to the list to account for the "positional indifference" of the data set. That brings us down to...the Alex Kerfoot/Cody Eakin type which is the 41/42 point threshold.

Considering the projection of Veleno as a plus defensive center, who wins draws, skates well, and gains the offensive zone well, there is no reason to think he isn't in the discussion of a second line center. We also can consider how much deployment can influence production. An example being: Justin Abdelkader Circa 2014-2016. Put Abby near the top playing 18 minutes a night with Datsyuk consistently creating points for him, looks like a serviceable second line level player. Remove the straw that stirs the drink, you get a shell of a player. If you are electing to put Veleno down the lineup to play with someone like Adam Erne and Evgeny Svechnikov, you will create the 30 point defensive center you are suggesting him to be. Put him on the second line with Filip Zadina or Anthony Mantha or Alexis Lafreniere, you are likely creating the two way center who will be on the higher end of the point spectrum.

The state of the team is going to go a long way in determining what Veleno is going to be; if the Wings come out of the draft with QB, you have to believe that Veleno is positioned to be among the best 3rd line centers at his peak, and if Veleno is worked into the lineup next year early and plays 2nd line center out of necessity, he may show enough that the team is comfortable building with him in mind.

For reference, here's an old article from 2011 discussing production by position and line.

Common Misconceptions: How Much Should That Forward Score?

2011 was a very long time ago. Last year 51 centers scored more than 50 points. 60 scored more than 45 points. But, that's not the whole story. Good teams don't just put the #60 center on their 2nd line and call it good. If Veleno does peak where I think he will and is the 2nd line center in Detroit that would signal a severe lack of center depth on the team. And would likely mean they aren't contending. Sure they could put him above his ability and buoy his stats that way, but, other than one good season in the CHL, there has been very little evidence that Veleno has the ability to center a top 6 line.
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,503
8,419
2011 was a very long time ago. Last year 51 centers scored more than 50 points. 60 scored more than 45 points. But, that's not the whole story. Good teams don't just put the #60 center on their 2nd line and call it good. If Veleno does peak where I think he will and is the 2nd line center in Detroit that would signal a severe lack of center depth on the team. And would likely mean they aren't contending. Sure they could put him above his ability and buoy his stats that way, but, other than one good season in the CHL, there has been very little evidence that Veleno has the ability to center a top 6 line.

Couple of things, I understand and provided all the stats from last year, with context. Projecting a player like Veleno to be between 40-50 points isn’t outrageous. Based on the minimum requirements, he can easily achieve 2nd line center status.

Smaller point, Veleno has played about 30 games of professional hockey, if you’re going to make your assessment based on juniors hockey (where he was among the best players in the league in his final year) and 30 AHL games, I’m just going to drop this conversation here. I know you are very confident in your opinions, and considering we seem to view things on opposite sides here, we won’t really meet anywhere in the middle.
 

ArmChairGM89

Registered User
Dec 10, 2019
1,552
1,034
2011 was a very long time ago. Last year 51 centers scored more than 50 points. 60 scored more than 45 points. But, that's not the whole story. Good teams don't just put the #60 center on their 2nd line and call it good. If Veleno does peak where I think he will and is the 2nd line center in Detroit that would signal a severe lack of center depth on the team. And would likely mean they aren't contending. Sure they could put him above his ability and buoy his stats that way, but, other than one good season in the CHL, there has been very little evidence that Veleno has the ability to center a top 6 line.

I think it’s fair to point out that that “one good season” I believe he lead the entire league in scoring.

edit: he was 2nd.
 
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