GWT: World Cup - Group E (Spain and Japan Advance)

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

True. But the same would've been true of our wastefulness even if we had held on against japan.

We failed because we conceded too much and because we didn't score enough, so we need to fix both

Thats fine but your argument about the attack sucks when I said the keeper wasn't good, doesn't hold water.

 

[cgf]

Thats fine but your argument about the attack sucks when I said the keeper wasn't good, doesn't hold water.

If that's all you meant then fair enough. I assumed you were agreeing with LITN who said that we only lost because our keeper was washed. My counterpoint to him was that either our keeper or our strikers could've saved us.

EDIT:
Given that our xG of 10 was further from the 6 goals we did score than our xGA of 3 was from the 5 goals we conceded, I would point more to starting Müller over Moukoko than to starting Neuer over ter Stegen.

EDIT2:
Still bummed we have yet to see:

Moukoko
Sane - Musiala - Wirtz - Havertz
Kimmich
Raum/Netz - Schlotterbeck - Süle/Rüdi - Klostermann
ter Stegen
​

...if only Müller & Neuer had retired after the Euros, and Wirtz had recovered quicker *sigh*

 

[les Habs]

Have to say that Japan is a really well managed side and good luck to whoever gets them going forward.

 

[cgf]

Have to say that Japan is a really well managed side and good luck to whoever gets them going forward.

I told people before the tourney that they'd be tricky. A very good midfield and they play together very well; without a top-tier striker they can bank on, but with many dangerous creatives...they actually have a lot in common with Spain.

Ko Itakura's a very good CB for them as well. Strong defender and very sovereign on the ball.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

A bad call didn't kick Germany out. (Bad calls and injuries are part of sports. That's why instant replay is dumb). Germany's mediocre play put themselves in that position.

 

[Albatros]

It seems Germany has lost it's footballing identity. For most of my life, they were a gritty, resilient bunch with crazy killer instinct.

Now they play "sexy" football but they're soft and too easy to play against.

I'm dreaming of a team of Rüdigers. Either way Flick may not be the problem but he's clearly also not the answer, the available players are still easily good enough to do better without fail.

 

[cgf]

A bad call didn't kick Germany out. (Bad calls and injuries are part of sports. That's why instant replay is dumb). Germany's mediocre play put themselves in that position.

Who's blaming a bad call? We're out because we didn't capitalize against Japan and Spain as much as we should've and conceded more than we should've...real GD of +1 vs xGD of +6.8

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's if's and but's either way. You're saying if Neuer hadn't conceded two goals against Japan we'd be through. I'm saying that if we scored two more goals against Japan we'd be through.

Both comments are true and both should've happened; Neuer should've saved Japan's 1st goal and we should've scored on Gnabry & Gundogan's first-half chances, but we failed to achieve either.

Luckily both should be addressed moving forward...at least until MAtS slows down too, if you lot haven't ruined him

Neuer looked bad on both goals today as well. First one, really juicy rebound after a header aimed right at him. Second one, indecivise on a ball in the 5 yard area. Disregarded classic rule of goalkeeping - you either stay on the line or get the ball.

 

[S E P H]

Germany like Spain just doesn't have their gold generation anymore and you can't blame them for that. Those squads were legendary and replacing legends is crazy hard to do so, just like at how much Spain has struggled since David Villa aged. I like Spain for the next World Cup with the likes of Gavi, Fasi, and Pedri so they should be okay, but Germany is a bit more clouded considering they only have one or two at maximum of getting to the world-class status.

 

[cgf]

Neuer looked bad on both goals today as well. First one, really juicy rebound after a header aimed right at him. Second one, indecivise on a ball in the 5 yard area. Disregarded classic rule of goalkeeping - you either stay on the line or get the ball.

Not arguing that Neuer was good, but if our GF (6) matched our xG (10.1) we'd have had better chances of going through than if our GA (5) matched our xGA (3.2).

All I was trying to say is that we were let down both in goal and in front of goal, and not just by a washed up keeper.

 

[cgf]

Germany like Spain just doesn't have their gold generation anymore and you can't blame them for that. Those squads were legendary and replacing legends is crazy hard to do so, just like at how much Spain has struggled since David Villa aged. I like Spain for the next World Cup with the likes of Gavi, Fasi, and Pedri so they should be okay, but Germany is a bit more clouded considering they only have one or two at maximum of getting to the world-class status.

You mean the likes of Musiala, Wirtz, Moukoko, Schlotterbeck, & Bella Kotchap?

We may not have a bDo winner given how insane Mbappe & Haaland are, but these comments held a lot more weight when it was the 97ers-00ers coming through...back then Kai really was the lone bright spot for us; before he went to f***in Chelsea.

However, things started to turn around for us with the 2001ers and the ascent still hasn't stopped...with the 2005ers being the most impressive group at the academy level yet...and those kids have started breaking in at the senior level.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Not arguing that Neuer was good, but if our GF (6) matched our xG (10.1) we'd have had better chances of going through than if our GA (5) matched our xGA (3.2).

All I was trying to say is that we were let down both in goal and in front of goal, and not just by a washed up keeper.

Well obviously trying to reduce it to just Neuer is silly. Really there was underachievement in most areas. We all talk about the defense and the lack of finishing, but for a team that's built around a passing philosophy, there's a surprisingly big number of poor passes in build-up which disrupt the flow. Not even difficult passes, just like a little 7-8 meter pass to a guy who isn't expecting it, or the pass is 1m ahead of or behind the natural receiving position. Stuff that shows that the players aren't 100% focused or coordinated. I remember in 2018 I blamed Kroos for a lot of that kind of stuff, and he was a big culprit of it, yet 4 years later he still plays a significant role at Real Madrid. Meanwhile those who replaced him on the national team pull the same shit, except unlike Kroos they can't hit a 45 yard perfect pass across the pitch if they are focused.

Another thing is the lack of width. If you look at the average position of Germany's attacking players in this match, you'll note that Muller, Sane, Gnabry and Musiala all essentially played in the same central area. It's an interesting constrast to say how Saka played for England vs Iran who stayed consciously wide right, and interestingly when he got subbed, so did his replacement Rashford, which shows that it was part of the game plan. Or Mbappe for France who played to the Left with Dembele/Coman on the Right. Player spacing. Basketball talks a ton about this, but it used to be considered way more important in football actually.

Unsurprisingly, a map of touches shows that Germany's entire game essentially takes place in a zone between the halfway line and the opposing box demarcated to the sides by the outside lines of the box. 38% of German attacks went through the middle, contrast that with 26% for France vs Denmark or 23% for England vs Iran. The problem is that this zone where German play is based most of the time is also the easiest to defend for an opponent because the space is small and easily clogged and because the play is taking place directly in front of the back line they can very easily shift toward the ball.

This has continued for years and years. Clearly this isn't down to individual players but must be expected and practiced behavior.

 

[cgf]

Well obviously trying to reduce it to just Neuer is silly. Really there was underachievement in most areas. We all talk about the defense and the lack of finishing, but for a team that's built around a passing philosophy, there's a surprisingly big number of poor passes in build-up which disrupt the flow. Not even difficult passes, just like a little 7-8 meter pass to a guy who isn't expecting it, or the pass is 1m ahead of or behind the natural receiving position. Stuff that shows that the players aren't 100% focused or coordinated. I remember in 2018 I blamed Kroos for a lot of that kind of stuff, and he was a big culprit of it, yet 4 years later he still plays a significant role at Real Madrid. Meanwhile those who replaced him on the national team pull the same shit, except unlike Kroos they can't hit a 45 yard perfect pass across the pitch if they are focused.

Another thing is the lack of width. If you look at the average position of Germany's attacking players in this match, you'll note that Muller, Sane, Gnabry and Musiala all essentially played in the same central area. It's an interesting constrast to say how Saka played for England vs Iran who stayed consciously wide right, and interestingly when he got subbed, so did his replacement Rashford, which shows that it was part of the game plan. Or Mbappe for France who played to the Left with Dembele/Coman on the Right. Player spacing. Basketball talks a ton about this, but it used to be considered way more important in football actually.

Unsurprisingly, a map of touches shows that Germany's entire game essentially takes place in a zone between the halfway line and the opposing box demarcated to the sides by the outside lines of the box. 38% of German attacks went through the middle, contrast that with 26% for France vs Denmark or 23% for England vs Iran. The problem is that this zone where German play is based most of the time is also the easiest to defend for an opponent because the space is small and easily clogged and because the play is taking place directly in front of the back line they can very easily shift toward the ball.

This has continued for years and years. Clearly this isn't down to individual players but must be expected and practiced behavior.

I guess I'm just not that disappointed by our play at this tourney so much as I am disappointed in our final balls/finishing. I don't disagree that our play can get very narrow & sloppy, but it also would've worked for us perfectly fine if only Gnabry or Gundogan had played the ball across goal instead of shooting against Japan.

...despite having to force Müller & Neuer into the lineup; while Wirtz missed the tourney and the likes of Moukoko, Adeyemi, and Bella Kotchap didn't play prominent roles as we're still in this transitional phase.

We had a clear down period in our youth development after the 96ers, and that, more than our style of play has been the issue for us since 2016, we just haven't had as much talent as we did...plus the oldies clinging on instead of passing the reins when their time had come.

I'm still very excited for the euros, despite this tourney not going as well as I would've liked it to have. I picture a roster like this with another 18-42 months of development, playing the exact same style we did at this tourney, and can't imagine how any team would've held us to just 1 goal.

Moukoko
Sane - Musiala - Wirtz - Havertz
Kimmich
Raum - Süle - Rüdiger - Klostermann
ter Stegen

Werner/Nmecha
Adeyemi/Schade - Burkardt/Wanner - Gnabry/Ibrahimovic
Goretzka - Stach/Janelt
Netz - Schlotterbeck - Bella Kotchap - Baku/Knauff
Ortega
​

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Can someone explain to me why Neuer and Müller were required to play? Seems to me like Germany advances with ter-Stegen and Moukoko in their spots instead.

I guess I'm just not that disappointed by our play at this tourney so much as I am disappointed in our final balls/finishing. I don't disagree that our play can get very narrow & sloppy, but it also would've worked for us perfectly fine if only Gnabry or Gundogan had played the ball across goal instead of shooting against Japan.

...despite having to force Müller & Neuer into the lineup; while Wirtz missed the tourney and the likes of Moukoko, Adeyemi, and Bella Kotchap didn't play prominent roles as we're still in this transitional phase.

We had a clear down period in our youth development after the 96ers, and that, more than our style of play has been the issue for us since 2016, we just haven't had as much talent as we did...plus the oldies clinging on instead of passing the reins when their time had come.

I'm still very excited for the euros, despite this tourney not going as well as I would've liked it to have. I picture a roster like this with another 18-42 months of development, playing the exact same style we did at this tourney, and can't imagine how any team would've held us to just 1 goal.

Moukoko
Sane - Musiala - Wirtz - Havertz
Kimmich
Raum - Süle - Rüdiger - Klostermann
ter Stegen

Werner/Nmecha
Adeyemi/Schade - Burkardt/Wanner - Gnabry/Ibrahimovic
Goretzka - Stach/Janelt
Netz - Schlotterbeck - Bella Kotchap - Baku/Knauff
Ortega
​

Nübel over Ortega.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Germany like Spain just doesn't have their gold generation anymore and you can't blame them for that. Those squads were legendary and replacing legends is crazy hard to do so, just like at how much Spain has struggled since David Villa aged. I like Spain for the next World Cup with the likes of Gavi, Fasi, and Pedri so they should be okay, but Germany is a bit more clouded considering they only have one or two at maximum of getting to the world-class status.

Musiala, Moukoko, Wirtz is a better 3 than the Spain trio or any 20 and under trio in the world.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Team Germany for Next Euros

Goalies: ter-Stegen, Nübel, Ortega
Defenders: Klostermann, Baku, Kehrer, Sule, Schlotterbeck, Bella-Kotchap, Rudiger, Raum, Netz
Midfielders: Kimmich, Stach, Goretzka, Dahoud, Musiala, Wirtz, Havertz, Gnabry, Sane, Schade, Felix Nmecha
Forwards: Moukoko, Adeyemi, Werner

I might watch too much Bundesliga, but I think this team is good.

 

[member 305909]

German coaches just seem to be like German Chancellors; they are on the job for years.

However, is Flick's job safe following this disappointment? Hardly anybody expected them to win but not getting out of the group must be just unacceptable.

 

[Bon Esprit]

I'm dreaming of a team of Rüdigers. Either way Flick may not be the problem but he's clearly also not the answer, the available players are still easily good enough to do better without fail.

Don't forget Gündogan. IMO he and Rüdiger were our best players. Musiala still has a lot to learn, but if things go well he will be a star one day (developped in England btw.).

 

[cgf]

Can someone explain to me why Neuer and Müller were required to play? Seems to me like Germany advances with ter-Stegen and Moukoko in their spots instead.



Nübel over Ortega.

I haven't watched Monaco and suck at assessing Goalies, but I'd feel comfortable with Ortega as our #2.


Locker-room stuff and the press. If you bring Neuer and don't start him then any goal that gets scored on ter Stegen would result in thousands of articles and postmatch questions. And if you don't play Müller he would start to b**** and grumble.

 

[NyQuil]

Even I think this is funny.

 

[samabam]

Team Germany for Next Euros

Goalies:
Defenders:
Midfielders: Schade
Forwards:

I might watch too much Bundesliga, but I think this team is good.

Schade? No....just no

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Schade? No....just no

Overrated or not ready?

 

[samabam]

Overrated or not ready?

He has looked tactically inept this season and gave off a sense of feeling entitlted to a position on the roster...both things that do not bode well for a Streich-coached talent

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Even I think this is funny.

Rüdiger is a joker. Always good for a crucial error. Didn't he claim in an interview before the World Cup that he sometimes intentionally makes a mistake to wake up the fans?

 

[Evilo]

I haven't watched Monaco and suck at assessing Goalies, but I'd feel comfortable with Ortega as our #2.


Locker-room stuff and the press. If you bring Neuer and don't start him then any goal that gets scored on ter Stegen would result in thousands of articles and postmatch questions. And if you don't play Müller he would start to b**** and grumble.

Nubel is horrible.