With Crosby and Malkin’s success does Jagr deserve to have his number retired?

[Jacob]

Malkin leaving as a FA when his contract is up is a lot different than Jagr demanding a trade while still under contract.

He’ll have also been here 16 seasons by that point I think.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah it really, really is weird to think about, sometimes. You watch Sid out there dominating in the corners making guys look like peewees and scoring goals like he did a few nights back and I reflexively think to myself "that looked like vintage Jagr, right there." You watch Geno dangle a whole team with his reach and soft hands then bull his way to the net with guys hanging off of him and you can't help but say "sure looked like Mario, to me." We are, in fact, ridiculously spoiled. I can't help but think that karma is gonna burn us for the next few decades as a result. Ha!

And you're right about how Jagr evolved his game and in this case in particular -- his shot. When he first came to Pittsburgh the one-timer/slapper more or less were not in his bag of tricks. At all. Weird to think of but he simply didn't use them. And I mean why would you I guess when you can simply skate through everyone and undress the goaltender or simply overpower him with that wrist shot. But by the time he left the Penguins he had picked that part of his arsenal up a lot more and like you said even became a powerplay triggerman later on in his career.

Malkin leaving as a FA when his contract is up is a lot different than Jagr demanding a trade while still under contract.

He’ll have also been here 16 seasons by that point I think.

I guess I'd be surprised if it happened. But you never know.

I feel like Malkin will want to play his NHL career exclusively in Pittsburgh and then head back home to play into his twilight years a la Datsyuk, etc.

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah Malkin leaving the Pens to play elsewhere in the NHL doesn't seem likely to me. He's won three Cups here, so there's no reason for him to go glory hunting elsewhere.

The only reason I could see that happening is if he wanted to be "the guy" on a team, but by the time his contract is up he'll be old enough that why would he want to do that anyways?

I think Sid/Geno/Letang are Pens-lifers are this point. Kessel I imagine will get moved eventually. Even him I could see finishing things out here just because he's been such a good fit.

 

[bathroomSTAAL]

The minute after this game ended he earned a jersey retirement imo.

 

[K Fleur]

The thought of MAF’s number in the rafters is giving me a headache.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah Malkin leaving the Pens to play elsewhere in the NHL doesn't seem likely to me. He's won three Cups here, so there's no reason for him to go glory hunting elsewhere.

The only reason I could see that happening is if he wanted to be "the guy" on a team, but by the time his contract is up he'll be old enough that why would he want to do that anyways?

I think Sid/Geno/Letang are Pens-lifers are this point. Kessel I imagine will get moved eventually. Even him I could see finishing things out here just because he's been such a good fit.

I think Malkin pulls a Datsyuk and maybe as soon as the next lockout.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well its weird to me that its weird to you

Why do we all care so much about this team if hockey isn't about more than hockey? Why not support whoever has the best players of the moment, or change teams whenever we change cities? Would it matter whether it was the Pittsburgh Penguins or the Kansas City Penguins?

There's a sense of loyalty and belonging needed for a franchise to be a team. That history and culture matters. Without it fandom is a hollow exercise.

I don't think its at all weird to state that being a team legend should rest on buying into that culture and loyalty as much as talent and achievements. I get why people might disagree, but to me its a very rational way of looking at it.

And that doesn't mean we should expect all players to do so. On the contrary - the fact that we know they have a different outlook and careers to look after is part of what makes that sort of buy-in so special and precious.

And tbh, I think its always been clear that this was about more than hockey. Ultimately, if the question was "Did you spend a lot of time as a Pen being incredibly good at hockey", there wouldn't be a thread here. Everyone would answer yes. The questions start when we start asking what he meant to Pittsburgh Penguins fans and what it meant to him to be a Pen.

edit: p.s. Just had a look at the poll. 4 out of 5 fans here reckon he should be in. There may be a loud debate here, but in terms of numbers that's pretty clear cut by most standards.

I’m honestly surprised by the votes, but I think they are swayed by casual fans / visiting fans. I feel like if you have this argument in Pittsburgh it is 50/50.

I mean Jags still got booed up until the Calgary year when you kind of knew it was the end.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think your description of how he played is accurate. He and Crosby actually share a good bit in common as far as style of play is concerned. Like you said... Jagr was more or less impossible to knock off the puck. And when he came out of the corner with it... look out. I always found it interesting how little he used a slapshot/snapshot. He was almost all wristers and dangles back then.

The thing about Jagr/Crosby/Malkin is that honestly... I don't even really LIKE Jagr that much. He wasn't a terrific leader, he was bizarre and often hard to take. The very definition of mercurial. He just wasn't an easy player to love. But damnit he was an absolute force every night in a Penguins uniform and you had to respect that and/or just kind of watch in awe. On the other hand, as you point out in your last sentence, Crosby and Geno are consummate professionals and teammates. It's part of what has made this era so enjoyable... both guys are generational talents AND standup, drama-free human beings and team leaders.

So I get where people are coming from on Jagr but I think they are letting their heart get in the way of their brain. Or we all just have different standards over how jerseys should be retired. And that's fine, too.

Don’t know if I agree with every night.

He was a dominant force for around 5-6 years. Then his off ice comments / mindset started effecting his play.

 

[Pancakes]

I think Malkin pulls a Datsyuk and maybe as soon as the next lockout.

Right I could see him going to Russia. I just don't see him going to another NHL team.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The thought of MAF’s number in the rafters is giving me a headache.

I've long said that one of this club's greatest traditions is not retiring a lot of numbers, just one tragic case and one insanely legendary one, both of whom spent their entire tenure with the club. But some people want to be just like every other Velveeta lame-ass hocket club.

Keep the retired number club exclusive.

 

[ColePens]

I think the debate is down to two simple things and we all agree on a lot more than we show.

1) The criteria for jersey retirement is the mega debate here. To some of us, being an elite all time great puts you in the ring of honor, HOF, etc. but jersey retirement for a specific team should include outside of hockey stuff. That criteria, IMO, was set by the two numbers we have retired. I 100000% believe the inclusion of what you do off the ice should determine if you get the ultimate accolade of having a jersey retired for a specific organization. Hell I would actually say Jagr's number being retired NHL-wide makes more sense than just on the Pens.

2) The other debate is just simply why? The idea of outreaching to a guy who seriously cares so little about being honored, just to honor him, is so weird to me. That would be like honoring Steve Jobs if he never went back to Apple and said he was dying alive there. Although he was a pioneer in that company and changed the game forever, why the hell would they do that? At least he went back.

But I do feel these 2 pieces are very small and the poll reflects the actual opinion of the majority of us. We all know he's one of the greatest of all time. We all know Pittsburgh is where he made his mark. We all know that mullet will be tied to the Pens organization. The 2 pieces in question should be split the way it is. The criteria is not defined and people should have differing criteria.

 

[HandshakeLine]

To add on to Cole's point, I think it's also not mutually exclusive to think Jagr was an elite, top 10 all-time NHL player (or even top 5) and not want to retire his number.

I think Jagr should be honored for his time with the Pens. I don't think anyone that hasn't played their entire career here should have their number retired though, no matter how good they are.

 

[Shady Machine]

I've long said that one of this club's greatest traditions is not retiring a lot of numbers, just one tragic case and one insanely legendary one, both of whom spent their entire tenure with the club. But some people want to be just like every other Velveeta lame-ass hocket club.

Keep the retired number club exclusive.

The club didn't have anyone other than Lemieux worth retiring until Sid, Geno, and Jags but point taken.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The club didn't have anyone other than Lemieux worth retiring until Sid, Geno, and Jags but point taken.

That is a fair point, but I still like the fact that the numbers thing is so exclusive for us. I mean, look at the Caps. They retired Yvon Labre.

 

[Shady Machine]

To add on to Cole's point, I think it's also not mutually exclusive to think Jagr was an elite, top 10 all-time NHL player (or even top 5) and not want to retire his number.

I think Jagr should be honored for his time with the Pens. I don't think anyone that hasn't played their entire career here should have their number retired though, no matter how good they are.

That's a tough standard if every team in the league adopted it. That means no retirements for Alfy, Selanne, Brodeur, Hasek, Messier, Roy, Robitaille, Bourque as just a few examples.

If the argument is Jagr is a jackass and the way he left and subsequent snub means he isn't worthy, I can understand that. I don't agree, but I get it. But if the idea is he didn't do enough in Pittsburgh to earn it based on his on ice accomplishments, I 100% disagree. This is a more general point and not directed at you.

 

[HandshakeLine]

That's a tough standard if every team in the league adopted it. That means no retirements for Alfy, Selanne, Brodeur, Hasek, Messier, Roy, Robitaille, Bourque as just a few examples.

Yeah, but I don't care about the rest of the league. That's my whole point. Other clubs can do whatever they want. I like that we're different and that we're not just retiring numbers to put them in the rafters because it's been a slow decade or 4.

That's really what the crux of my argument is-- I don't think we should model ourselves on what other clubs do because we're not other clubs, we have our own unique history and we should be proud of our embarrassment of riches. And nothing says stylish like being minimal.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah, but I don't care about the rest of the league. That's my whole point. Other clubs can do whatever they want. I like that we're different and that we're not just retiring numbers to put them in the rafters because it's been a slow decade or 4.

That's really what the crux of my argument is-- I don't think we should model ourselves on what other clubs do because we're not other clubs, we have our own unique history and we should be proud of our embarrassment of riches. And nothing says stylish like being minimal.

Gotcha. I generally agree although I make an exception for Jagr because I want jersey retirement to celebrate long term greatness on a team and in the sport. Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Malkin did that. That's the list and it should stay there until someone else comes along of that magnitude, which may not happen again in our lifetime.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I feel ya, Shady. I really get your argument and I'm sympathetic to it, to a degree. But I think, honestly, that's part of the price worth paying if the Pens keep high standards regarding numbers. I like us being the hated elitist snobs of the NHL because, well, let's face it-- we're spoiled and rightly so. Most other clubs (especially non-Original 6s) would have retired several dozen of our alumni already.

Jagr is going to be controversial no matter whether or not you retire him. And similarly, I really don't think anyone is going to wear 68 in this club ever again, at least not in my lifetime.

 

[ColePens]

Now I think all of us are on the same page... and it was HandshakeLin to explain it?!?!? I think it's time to retire from HF.

 

[Shady Machine]

I feel ya, Shady. I really get your argument and I'm sympathetic to it, to a degree. But I think, honestly, that's part of the price worth paying if the Pens keep high standards regarding numbers. I like us being the hated elitist snobs of the NHL because, well, let's face it-- we're spoiled and rightly so. Most other clubs (especially non-Original 6s) would have retired several dozen of our alumni already.

Jagr is going to be controversial no matter whether or not you retire him. And similarly, I really don't think anyone is going to wear 68 in this club ever again, at least not in my lifetime.

I totally get your view as well and am fine with it if that's what the org decides. I want to take my boys to a game in 10 years and see 66, 68, 87, and 71 in the rafters and talk to them about my time growing up as a fan watching those 4 play. On merit, I think Jags belongs there, and then as a fan, I like the idea personally. I get those others don't and that's okay.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I won't rest until I'm enshrined in the rafters here at HF.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I totally get your view as well and am fine with it if that's what the org decides. I want to take my boys to a game in 10 years and see 66, 68, 87, and 71 in the rafters and talk to them about my time growing up as a fan watching those 4 play. On merit, I think Jags belongs there, and then as a fan, I like the idea personally. I get those others don't and that's okay.

That's why I think there should be SOME kind of recognition, (hell, put up a statue!) but I just balk at retiring his number.

 

[Shady Machine]

That's why I think there should be SOME kind of recognition, (hell, put up a statue!) but I just balk at retiring his number.

Ha I see a statue as a bigger thing than jersey retirement and should only be for Lemieux.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

That is a fair point, but I still like the fact that the numbers thing is so exclusive for us. I mean, look at the Caps. They retired Yvon Labre.

Or the Avs retiring Bourque, that was ridiculous.

 

[Gurglesons]

The club didn't have anyone other than Lemieux worth retiring until Sid, Geno, and Jags but point taken.

Rob Francis?