With Crosby and Malkin’s success does Jagr deserve to have his number retired?

[Gurglesons]

Nobody is forcing it, but I'll bet it happens if Jagr is open to it and I'm in favor of it. Doesn't mean others don't have legitimate arguments against it.

The thing I've noticed with those that are against is that they are using Lemieux as the standard. That's an incredibly high standard and one Sid and Geno can't touch either. I also agree that both Sid and Geno had bigger Stanley Cup moments than Jagr overall, but it's hard to compare them to Jagr because when it was HIS team, he didn't have a Geno or Sid with him. His personal accomplishments with the team were historic and he's such a big part of the history of the franchise, IMO, that it warrants at least serious consideration of a jersey retirement.

There would have to be a "coming home" of sorts, like the Ducks had with Kariya. It took time for Paul to come back to hockey and be open to jersey retirement, but he got there. Jagr would have to come back, do some media stuff, say a speech in front of all the fans, etc. If he's willing to do all that, I bet it happens.

Sid and Geno most certainly touch Lemieux if they stay career Penguins. Three cups, three Smythe, Sid is arguably top five all time. Malkin floats in that 20-30 realm in terms of forwards.

Jagr has Francis and Lemieux for multiple years. He just never did anything with them. Then he had Straka, Lang and Kovalev two years later. Let’s not try to sell Jagr as being on an island.

All five of his Art Ross’s game with either of those combinations on the team.97-98 had no Lemieux but he still had Francis, Lang and Straka.

 

[ColePens]

How can you say "there is no reason for it"? Is there ever a reason for it then and who decides the reason?

This is going to go on and on forever if we want to venture down this road. My question is simply what is the reason for retiring his jersey in Pittsburgh? Like... why? He's an instant HOF player. He's my #5 right now for GOAT hockey players. He left and his career was shared with a bunch of teams. And I also do not care one bit that he left. Pittsburgh freaking sucked in the 90s. I was a kid so I got to grow up with a new southside and not a disgusting dump. The cultural district and so many other places have popped up. This place became incredible in 2000s, but well after Jagr left. I would hate it too if I was a millionaire looking to have some fun.

#21 and #66 make perfect sense. #87 and 71 will happen when they both retire a Penguin. I would say 68 is unofficially retired but it would just feel forced to have a "coming home" event for Jagr. Jagr doesn't give a shit about Pittsburgh and kudos to him. He owes us nothing. He played out his contract here and that's all he owed us. He deserves all the accolades he gets. But forcing a "JAGR IS COMING HOME!" event is f***ing stupid and forced. He doesn't care and honestly the fans really don't care if it happens or not.

 

[Shady Machine]

When did Jagr rival the best to ever play the game?

Francis, Yzerman, and Sakic are all top ten in points. Do you consider them top ten players all time? Jagr honestly isn’t even in my top twenty.

Maybe top ten in terms of forwards / skaters.

Jagr was arguably the best forward in the league for what.. a three year span? And even then if we take other players into account during that three year span I think you have to say Lidstrom and Hasek were better.

62 goal and 149 points in 95-96 is a historic season, only bested that season by arguably the best player to ever play the game in Lemieux. That season was the 17th highest point total in a season in the history of the game, only bested by Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and Esposito, and Nicholls.

These conversations are always difficult because it is era dependent and biased based on who you watched the most. I will just say that Jagr is one of the best players to ever play the game. Where does he belong on that list? I'd say for sure top 20, but I can understand others arguing differently.

 

[Shady Machine]

This is going to go on and on forever if we want to venture down this road. My question is simply what is the reason for retiring his jersey in Pittsburgh? Like... why? He's an instant HOF player. He's my #5 right now for GOAT hockey players. He left and his career was shared with a bunch of teams. And I also do not care one bit that he left. Pittsburgh freaking sucked in the 90s. I was a kid so I got to grow up with a new southside and not a disgusting dump. The cultural district and so many other places have popped up. This place became incredible in 2000s, but well after Jagr left. I would hate it too if I was a millionaire looking to have some fun.

#21 and #66 make perfect sense. #87 and 71 will happen when they both retire a Penguin. I would say 68 is unofficially retired but it would just feel forced to have a "coming home" event for Jagr. Jagr doesn't give a **** about Pittsburgh and kudos to him. He owes us nothing. He played out his contract here and that's all he owed us. He deserves all the accolades he gets. But forcing a "JAGR IS COMING HOME!" event is ****ing stupid and forced. He doesn't care and honestly the fans really don't care if it happens or not.

The reason for retiring any number is to honor the career and legacy of a player that made a big impact on an organization through their performance on the ice. Jagr did that. Every organization can make their own decisions on the specific criteria, but based on what many teams have done, Jagr meets that threshold. I honestly don't care all that much if it doesn't happen, but as a Pens fan, I'd like to see it.

I think the organization likely agrees although I can't prove it. Morehouse at least said they would reach out to Jagr after he retires based on his response to a Mackey question I posted earlier in the thread. Could have been a PR nothing response, but I think he could have dodged the question easier if the org wasn't all that interested in it.

 

[ColePens]

The reason for retiring any number is to honor the career and legacy of a player that made a big impact on an organization through their performance on the ice. Jagr did that. Every organization can make their own decisions on the specific criteria, but based on what many teams have done, Jagr meets that threshold. I honestly don't care all that much if it doesn't happen, but as a Pens fan, I'd like to see it.

So... Jagr doesn't care. The fans really don't care (except those stuck in the 90s). We all mutually agree he's one of the greatest players of all time. Once again - why are we forcing a homecoming moment again?

And don't get me wrong, if he called Mario and said "Hey man.. it would mean a lot to me if my number was attached to the Pens forever." Do it. Retire it. If they retired his number tomorrow, cool. Once again - I just don't care. I just don't think Jagr cares what team he is represented by. I celebrate his career but I do not say "Jagr... the Pittsburgh Penguin." I just say "Jagr - one of the best of all time." With Mario and soon to be Sid/Geno, when they call it quits, i'll say Mario/Sid/Geno - Pittsburgh Penguins and some of the GOAT hockey players."

When it comes to important Pittsburgh Penguins, it's 66, 87, 71, and then 68. He's officially behind those 3 in terms of just Pittsburgh Penguins. I honestly would retire MAFs jersey before Jagr. To have a team retire your jersey, I feel you should have impact on the city, the organization, and be tied to that organization for a lifetime. MAF meets that criteria more than Jagr does.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So... Jagr doesn't care. The fans really don't care (except those stuck in the 90s). We all mutually agree he's one of the greatest players of all time. Once again - why are we forcing a homecoming moment again?

And don't get me wrong, if he called Mario and said "Hey man.. it would mean a lot to me if my number was attached to the Pens forever." Do it. Retire it. If they retired his number tomorrow, cool. Once again - I just don't care. I just don't think Jagr cares what team he is represented by. I celebrate his career but I do not say "Jagr... the Pittsburgh Penguin." I just say "Jagr - one of the best of all time." With Mario and soon to be Sid/Geno, when they call it quits, i'll say Mario/Sid/Geno - Pittsburgh Penguins and some of the GOAT hockey players."

When it comes to important Pittsburgh Penguins, it's 66, 87, 71, and then 68. He's officially behind those 3 in terms of just Pittsburgh Penguins. I honestly would retire MAFs jersey before Jagr. To have a team retire your jersey, I feel you should have impact on the city, the organization, and be tied to that organization for a lifetime. MAF meets that criteria more than Jagr does.

20 years from now, everybody discussing Jagr's legacy will be thinking of him first and foremost in a Pens jersey. He will be remembered for what he did in Pittsburgh. That's the part of his career that gets him into the HOF. I don't care what he did after he left. I don't care that he was gone longer than he was here. What he did here was worth retiring his number in my mind.

That said, if he isn't interested in being a part of a ceremony then I agree don't retire his jersey. That's on him. But I say extend the offer.

 

[Shady Machine]

So... Jagr doesn't care. The fans really don't care (except those stuck in the 90s). We all mutually agree he's one of the greatest players of all time. Once again - why are we forcing a homecoming moment again?

And don't get me wrong, if he called Mario and said "Hey man.. it would mean a lot to me if my number was attached to the Pens forever." Do it. Retire it. If they retired his number tomorrow, cool. Once again - I just don't care. I just don't think Jagr cares what team he is represented by. I celebrate his career but I do not say "Jagr... the Pittsburgh Penguin." I just say "Jagr - one of the best of all time." With Mario and soon to be Sid/Geno, when they call it quits, i'll say Mario/Sid/Geno - Pittsburgh Penguins and some of the GOAT hockey players."

When it comes to important Pittsburgh Penguins, it's 66, 87, 71, and then 68. He's officially behind those 3 in terms of just Pittsburgh Penguins. I honestly would retire MAFs jersey before Jagr. To have a team retire your jersey, I feel you should have impact on the city, the organization, and be tied to that organization for a lifetime. MAF meets that criteria more than Jagr does.

Anyone saying MAF's number should be retired before Jagr's is just so foreign to me. My brain can't comprehend such a statement.

Anyway, I get your perspective, but I think the team disagrees. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Anyone saying MAF's number should be retired before Jagr's is just so foreign to me. My brain can't comprehend such a statement.

yeah I was trying to type up a response to that part and honestly couldn't even figure out where to start

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby and Malkin won another cup while being the two best players in the league. Honestly, I could care less about Art Rosses when it comes to legacies.

So you'd sooner retire Kunitz's number than Jagrs? Kunitz won one more Cup with us, so I guess we should retire his number instead of Jagr's.

 

[Pancakes]

Anyone saying MAF's number should be retired before Jagr's is just so foreign to me. My brain can't comprehend such a statement.

Anyway, I get your perspective, but I think the team disagrees. Time will tell I suppose.

I could see retiring Maf's number simply because he did have some success here and like him or not he's one of the most beloved faces in franchise history.

I don't get the cult following he has, but I can't ignore it either. If you're talking about athletes that meant a lot to the fans of this city, Maf is right up there.

 

[ColePens]

Anyone saying MAF's number should be retired before Jagr's is just so foreign to me. My brain can't comprehend such a statement.

Anyway, I get your perspective, but I think the team disagrees. Time will tell I suppose.

What's your criteria for having a jersey retired? Because he was a good player? That's it? To me, someone who meant something to the organization, HOF career, did work outside of hockey in the community while represented by the Pens, left a mark on the organization, won championships, and someone who means something to the community of the city they are being retired in. Y'all can put on your blinders, but MAF fits more of the bill than Jagr. And that guy will end up in the HOF.

Let's say 60% of Jagr's career was not in Pittsburgh.
Did he want to be in Pittsburgh? No.
Did he want to come back? No.
Did he ever come back in any way? No. The guy doesn't come back in any single way.
Did he leave a mark in the city outside of hockey? Sure.. if dying alive is your thing.

I find it so weird when people in Pittsburgh have this crazy nostalgia fest over 68. I would literally retire 58 or 29 before 68. And if they did welcome Jagr back and retire his number, I wouldn't oppose it in any way. But Jagr would come back for that night and never come back again. We all know it.

 

[ColePens]

20 years from now, everybody discussing Jagr's legacy will be thinking of him first and foremost in a Pens jersey. He will be remembered for what he did in Pittsburgh. That's the part of his career that gets him into the HOF. I don't care what he did after he left. I don't care that he was gone longer than he was here. What he did here was worth retiring his number in my mind.

That said, if he isn't interested in being a part of a ceremony then I agree don't retire his jersey. That's on him. But I say extend the offer.

It's about to be 20 years since he's been in Pittsburgh so in 20 more years it will be 40 years. And it won't be any different than now. I've always felt there was a mutual understanding and agreement between Pittsburghers and Jagr. We accepted our city did suck ass and he was right to move on. We also accepted that life goes on and he's one of the GOAT who made his start here in the Burgh. That's it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It's about to be 20 years since he's been in Pittsburgh so in 20 more years it will be 40 years. And it won't be any different than now. I've always felt there was a mutual understanding and agreement between Pittsburghers and Jagr. We accepted our city did suck ass and he was right to move on. We also accepted that life goes on and he's one of the GOAT who made his start here in the Burgh. That's it.

Go discuss where Jagr belongs in the all-time lists. What accomplishments are being discussed? Where did he play when he achieved them? Pittsburgh.

And he didn't just make his start in the burgh. He had a hall of fame career in the burgh. He was the face of the team. I don't think anything he did after he left detracts from what he did while he was here. And while he was here, he was a guy worthy of having his jersey retired.

 

[Shady Machine]

What's your criteria for having a jersey retired? Because he was a good player? That's it? To me, someone who meant something to the organization, HOF career, did work outside of hockey in the community while represented by the Pens, left a mark on the organization, won championships, and someone who means something to the community of the city they are being retired in. Y'all can put on your blinders, but MAF fits more of the bill than Jagr. And that guy will end up in the HOF.

Let's say 60% of Jagr's career was not in Pittsburgh.
Did he want to be in Pittsburgh? No.
Did he want to come back? No.
Did he ever come back in any way? No. The guy doesn't come back in any single way.
Did he leave a mark in the city outside of hockey? Sure.. if dying alive is your thing.

I find it so weird when people in Pittsburgh have this crazy nostalgia fest over 68. I would literally retire 58 or 29 before 68. And if they did welcome Jagr back and retire his number, I wouldn't oppose it in any way. But Jagr would come back for that night and never come back again. We all know it.

Personal greatness on the ice is my number 1 criteria. Jagr meant a lot to this city because of his greatness in the sport of hockey. The off ice stuff is important, but secondary to me.

On your list:
Meant something to the organization and HOF career: Check
Did work outside of hockey in community: No idea and you don't know either. Those things are publicized a lot more these days.
Left a mark on the organization: Yes by being a really good hockey player on the team for a long time
Won Championships: Check
Someone who means something to the community of the city: Yes by being really, really good at hockey during his time here and a whole generation of fans growing up with 68 as their favorite player

I obviously put a stronger emphasis on legacy in the sport through performance on that team as a reason to retire a number than you do.

 

[Shady Machine]

It's about to be 20 years since he's been in Pittsburgh so in 20 more years it will be 40 years. And it won't be any different than now. I've always felt there was a mutual understanding and agreement between Pittsburghers and Jagr. We accepted our city did suck ass and he was right to move on. We also accepted that life goes on and he's one of the GOAT who made his start here in the Burgh. That's it.

Nah dude had a Hall of Fame career JUST by his time here and made a huge impact on continuing the legacy of youth hockey by being so good.

It sounds like the argument against retiring his number isn't really hockey related and that's sort of weird to me.

 

[Pancakes]

What's your criteria for having a jersey retired? Because he was a good player? That's it? To me, someone who meant something to the organization, HOF career, did work outside of hockey in the community while represented by the Pens, left a mark on the organization, won championships, and someone who means something to the community of the city they are being retired in. Y'all can put on your blinders, but MAF fits more of the bill than Jagr. And that guy will end up in the HOF.

Let's say 60% of Jagr's career was not in Pittsburgh.
Did he want to be in Pittsburgh? No.
Did he want to come back? No.
Did he ever come back in any way? No. The guy doesn't come back in any single way.
Did he leave a mark in the city outside of hockey? Sure.. if dying alive is your thing.

I find it so weird when people in Pittsburgh have this crazy nostalgia fest over 68. I would literally retire 58 or 29 before 68. And if they did welcome Jagr back and retire his number, I wouldn't oppose it in any way. But Jagr would come back for that night and never come back again. We all know it.

Did he win 5 scoring titles here, the most of any player not named Lemieux? Yes

Did he win 2 cups here? Yes

I don't care about the other stuff. So he whined and left the team. So what? It's not like he killed dogs or assaulted a woman or anything like that. To me the legacy of on ice play he had here trumps the other stuff. I'd rather celebrate one of the best players who ever put on the Penguins uniform.

I can respect if people don't want to forgive the other stuff and I'm not saying my opinion trumps yours or anyone elses. But that's how I feel about it.

 

[ColePens]

Nah dude had a Hall of Fame career JUST by his time here and made a huge impact on continuing the legacy of youth hockey by being so good.

It sounds like the argument against retiring his number isn't really hockey related and that's sort of weird to me.

I think our differences stem from 2 things: 1) My weight of how important the player was to the organization from an off-the-ice point of view. 2) I'm taking this thread as if I was on a board that met with Mario and voted yes or no. Because I seriously don't care if they ever have the big ole homecoming or not. And my reasoning is simply because I know for a fact Jagr doesn't care.

There is no set criteria to retire numbers for any organization. They can do it or they don't have to do it. Like i've said from the beginning - if it happened tomorrow, i'd wouldn't care at all. I'd literally just be like "Oh cool. Yeah he was definitely one of the best." And that's it. If they didn't raise Sid or Geno's jersey, I'd actually be a little pissed.

I seriously feel if you had a candid conversation with Jagr and asked him if he cared if he had his number retired in Pittsburgh, he'd tell you no. He doesn't care. If you asked Geno or Sid, I feel like there would be legit honor to be a part of that group. So if he doesn't care, and I think every point he makes is valid, then why am I awkwardly reaching out to have this big ceremony? He has shown time and time again that hockey is his love and he lived up to every contract he agreed to. So he comes into Pittsburgh, some 90s yinzers get to show off their mullets, and then he never comes back ever again. I'm not understanding what the point is. He's in our "Ring of Honor" and he will forever be a part of our history. Going above and beyond for a guy who doesn't care if you do it is just so weird to me. It's forced.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It isn't a "mulleted 90s yinzer" thing. Come on. The guy was by every measurable standard one of the greatest players to ever lace up for this team.

To me, at least, all the other stuff is irrelevant. So he doesn't talk pretty about the team in scripted interviews. That's just another part of what made Jagr Jagr.

But again, it's whatever. Crosby and Malkin are a shoo-in. As they should be. That's good enough for me. I just think it's a shame that there seem to be so many who don't seem to grasp the caliber of player Jagr was in Pittsburgh. Legendary. I'm as huge a Crosby/Malkin guy as you'll find. They are not only immensely talented but carry themselves with grace and class and are always repping the organization in a positive light. But they just WEREN'T quite in the same echelon as Jagr. I'm sorry... I know it's difficult to compare across eras but both come up just a tad short, so far as sheer ability is concerned. If that sounds ridiculous to you -- Jagr was just that good.

And as far as "heart" or whatever... didn't Jagr literally wear like a jury-rigged tire tube around his waist to hold his torn groin together to play in a series against Jersey? Like I keep saying... Jagr was (and is) very strange. I totally understand how some think he couldn't give a shit but I still believe that in his own bizarre way he did and probably still does.

 

[Peat]

Nah dude had a Hall of Fame career JUST by his time here and made a huge impact on continuing the legacy of youth hockey by being so good.

It sounds like the argument against retiring his number isn't really hockey related and that's sort of weird to me.

Well its weird to me that its weird to you

Why do we all care so much about this team if hockey isn't about more than hockey? Why not support whoever has the best players of the moment, or change teams whenever we change cities? Would it matter whether it was the Pittsburgh Penguins or the Kansas City Penguins?

There's a sense of loyalty and belonging needed for a franchise to be a team. That history and culture matters. Without it fandom is a hollow exercise.

I don't think its at all weird to state that being a team legend should rest on buying into that culture and loyalty as much as talent and achievements. I get why people might disagree, but to me its a very rational way of looking at it.

And that doesn't mean we should expect all players to do so. On the contrary - the fact that we know they have a different outlook and careers to look after is part of what makes that sort of buy-in so special and precious.

And tbh, I think its always been clear that this was about more than hockey. Ultimately, if the question was "Did you spend a lot of time as a Pen being incredibly good at hockey", there wouldn't be a thread here. Everyone would answer yes. The questions start when we start asking what he meant to Pittsburgh Penguins fans and what it meant to him to be a Pen.

edit: p.s. Just had a look at the poll. 4 out of 5 fans here reckon he should be in. There may be a loud debate here, but in terms of numbers that's pretty clear cut by most standards.

 

[Human]

oh wow, MAF's number being retired before Jagr's? I don't even know where to start... why not Letang's? imo, he was more/equally important/instrumental than/as MAF, on the ice, for these modern era Cups.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well its weird to me that its weird to you

Why do we all care so much about this team if hockey isn't about more than hockey? Why not support whoever has the best players of the moment, or change teams whenever we change cities? Would it matter whether it was the Pittsburgh Penguins or the Kansas City Penguins?

There's a sense of loyalty and belonging needed for a franchise to be a team. That history and culture matters. Without it fandom is a hollow exercise.

I don't think its at all weird to state that being a team legend should rest on buying into that culture and loyalty as much as talent and achievements. I get why people might disagree, but to me its a very rational way of looking at it.

And that doesn't mean we should expect all players to do so. On the contrary - the fact that we know they have a different outlook and careers to look after is part of what makes that sort of buy-in so special and precious.

And tbh, I think its always been clear that this was about more than hockey. Ultimately, if the question was "Did you spend a lot of time as a Pen being incredibly good at hockey", there wouldn't be a thread here. Everyone would answer yes. The questions start when we start asking what he meant to Pittsburgh Penguins fans and what it meant to him to be a Pen.

edit: p.s. Just had a look at the poll. 4 out of 5 fans here reckon he should be in. There may be a loud debate here, but in terms of numbers that's pretty clear cut by most standards.

I buy some of this if Jagr played a few really good seasons here and then moved on, but he had a HOF career just in Pittsburgh, won 2 cups, and served as captain. In the history of the organization, he will be the 4th most important Penguin of all time and one of the greatest overall players of all time. That to me is worthy of jersey retirement.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm sorry... I know it's difficult to compare across eras but both come up just a tad short, so far as sheer ability is concerned. If that sounds ridiculous to you -- Jagr was just that good.

I think Sid was close...but yeah. Jagr in his prime was absolutely ridiculous. It's hard to describe if you didn't see him play then. But imagine Crosby except 6 foot 3 and with better dangles. Jagr was absolutely impossible to knock off the puck, and this was at the head of the deadpuck era where people could hook and hold as they pleased.

I shudder to think what prime Jagr would do to the league now where you can't hook him. I have the same fantasies about prime Mario in today's NHL though .

Jagr would just individually take over games to the point where his linemates almost didn't matter.

That said Sid/Geno are ten times the leaders/team players Jags ever was. It's too bad Mario had the injury problems because he could keep Jagr in check. I'm certain that core would have won another Cup had Mario not had all the issues.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I would be perfectly fine with having only 66 and 21 in the rafters for the entirety of the franchise's existence. Mario's shadow is long and wide and when you stack it up to anyone, you can't come within a mile of it. On the ice he was a machine and a holy terror you could only hope to minimize the damage when he just finished cancer treatment. Off the ice he saved the team, deferred money owed to him so he could buy the franchise (partly self serving, but still risked not seeing that money come back had things not gone well), started a foundation that has raised something like $25m for cancer research, started Austin's Playroom (which I have 1st hand experience on how valuable they are), and has been an ever present icon in the community. Ball that together and I'm surprised the roof of PPG hasn't caved in holding that number aloft. Sid and Geno (who most everyone already has their numbers hanging in the rafters) have most of the on-ice stuff kind of close, but that off-ice resume pales in comparison.

So what I'm kind of trying to get at is Mario's number set an insanely high bar to match and I would be fine letting it stay there alone (I know Brière is there as well, but special circumstances) since everyone wants to use his as the measuring stick. No one can come close to Mario's importance and legacy. Let Sid, Geno, Jagr have their numbers be unofficially retired because it would take some kid to have the biggest set of stones to ask to wear any of those numbers.

No knock on Sid, Geno, Jagr. They are amazing players and people (to varying degrees), but, to me, either they all hang or none of them do.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think Sid was close...but yeah. Jagr in his prime was absolutely ridiculous. It's hard to describe if you didn't see him play then. But imagine Crosby except 6 foot 3 and with better dangles. Jagr was absolutely impossible to knock off the puck, and this was at the head of the deadpuck era where people could hook and hold as they pleased.

I shudder to think what prime Jagr would do to the league now where you can't hook him. I have the same fantasies about prime Mario in today's NHL though .

Jagr would just individually take over games to the point where his linemates almost didn't matter.

That said Sid/Geno are ten times the leaders/team players Jags ever was. It's too bad Mario had the injury problems because he could keep Jagr in check. I'm certain that core would have won another Cup had Mario not had all the issues.

I think your description of how he played is accurate. He and Crosby actually share a good bit in common as far as style of play is concerned. Like you said... Jagr was more or less impossible to knock off the puck. And when he came out of the corner with it... look out. I always found it interesting how little he used a slapshot/snapshot. He was almost all wristers and dangles back then.

The thing about Jagr/Crosby/Malkin is that honestly... I don't even really LIKE Jagr that much. He wasn't a terrific leader, he was bizarre and often hard to take. The very definition of mercurial. He just wasn't an easy player to love. But damnit he was an absolute force every night in a Penguins uniform and you had to respect that and/or just kind of watch in awe. On the other hand, as you point out in your last sentence, Crosby and Geno are consummate professionals and teammates. It's part of what has made this era so enjoyable... both guys are generational talents AND standup, drama-free human beings and team leaders.

So I get where people are coming from on Jagr but I think they are letting their heart get in the way of their brain. Or we all just have different standards over how jerseys should be retired. And that's fine, too.

 

[Pancakes]

I think your description of how he played is accurate. He and Crosby actually share a good bit in common as far as style of play is concerned. Like you said... Jagr was more or less impossible to knock off the puck. And when he came out of the corner with it... look out. I always found it interesting how little he used a slapshot/snapshot. He was almost all wristers and dangles back then.

The thing about Jagr/Crosby/Malkin is that honestly... I don't even really LIKE Jagr that much. He wasn't a terrific leader, he was bizarre and often hard to take. The very definition of mercurial. He just wasn't an easy player to love. But damnit he was an absolute force every night in a Penguins uniform and you had to respect that and/or just kind of watch in awe. On the other hand, as you point out in your last sentence, Crosby and Geno are consummate professionals and teammates. It's part of what has made this era so enjoyable... both guys are generational talents AND standup, drama-free human beings and team leaders.

So I get where people are coming from on Jagr but I think they are letting their heart get in the way of their brain. Or we all just have different standards over how jerseys should be retired. And that's fine, too.

I always loved watching Jagr play. I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff back then but I'm only 31 so watching him growing up I wouldn't have cared as much about the drama and stuff like that back then. It was more about the player on the ice.

I agree that Sid/Jagr share a lot of playstyle similarities. Jagr's wrister/snapper were crazy good. So powerful. He rarely cared to blast slappers or one timers. Which is interesting because if you go back and watch Jagr in 05-6 where he had that awesome season for the Rangers he scored a ton of one-timers there. Just goes to show how great players continually evolve and adapt I guess.

How bizarre that we get to watch another Jagr-like with Sid and another Mario-like with Geno. The stylistic similarities in both are kinda eerie sometimes.