With Crosby and Malkin’s success does Jagr deserve to have his number retired?

[Andy99]

He's one of the four best players to have ever played for the Pens and is on their Mount Rushmore (Sid, Geno, Mario, Jagr)...of course he should...so he has a personality disorder and was traded...still doesn't change that fact

 

[Gurglesons]

He's one of the four best players to have ever played for the Pens and is on their Mount Rushmore (Sid, Geno, Mario, Jagr)...of course he should...so he has a personality disorder and was traded...still doesn't change that fact

Retired numbers shouldn’t be about being the best, they should be about what the player brought to the franchise.

What exactly did Jagr do aside from usher in the worst era in franchise history..

 

[Shady Machine]

I don’t see how Jagr is above Malkin tbh. What did Jagr really do in any of the cup runs / post season that is comparable to Malkin’s Conn Smythe + Conn Smythe worthy run in 2017?

That’s where the argument stems from, the Penguins don’t retire “elite” players numbers. They retire generational Penguins numbers. Jagr was a Penguin at some point. Sid and Geno regardless of where they go or what they do will be Penguins for the rest of their career and post career.

Fair or not, Malkin has never had his era to lead the team. It was the Lemiuex era, the Jagr era, the Dark years, and then the Sid era. I love Geno as much as anyone on this board and think he deserves to have his number retired, but I'm just trying to be objective. I'll call Geno/Jagr a tie for 3rd if you'd like.

Jagr, while not leading the team to a Cup, finished with a ton of personal accolades during that run and while his career has taken him all over the NHL and the world, when you think of Jagr's best, you always think of Pittsburgh.

As for the Pens don't retire elite player's numbers, can you think of another player that accomplished as much as Jagr did as a Penguin? Francis, Coffey, Trottier all had big roles here, but made their marks with other teams first. Jagr grew up as a Penguin and had his best years here. Just a different scenario.

 

[gopens66]

There isn't a Penguins fan who went through the 80's and 90's that doesn't have any slightly mixed feelings about how Jagr left. (And the 2012 Flyers thing, too.) I'm also sure, even though he'd never admit it, that Jags feels some regret about how things went down and ended up. That's life. People's perspectives change. He should absolutely have his number retired. As said above, just his 11 years as a Penguin gets him 1st ballot HOF. I wanted to see the Jagr-Pittsburgh reunification as a player. Well, that's not gonna happen. Give him this.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Fair or not, Malkin has never had his era to lead the team. It was the Lemiuex era, the Jagr era, the Dark years, and then the Sid era. I love Geno as much as anyone on this board and think he deserves to have his number retired, but I'm just trying to be objective. I'll call Geno/Jagr a tie for 3rd if you'd like.

Jagr, while not leading the team to a Cup, finished with a ton of personal accolades during that run and while his career has taken him all over the NHL and the world, when you think of Jagr's best, you always think of Pittsburgh.

As for the Pens don't retire elite player's numbers, can you think of another player that accomplished as much as Jagr did as a Penguin? Francis, Coffey, Trottier all had big roles here, but made their marks with other teams first. Jagr grew up as a Penguin and had his best years here. Just a different scenario.

Sid has been the poster boy, but I'd go as far to say that Geno has been more a 1b to him than a 2. Geno mustn't be the forgotten man. He is close to as important to the Pens as Sid is. Maybe not PR wise because of the language barrier, but to the team itself, no doubt in my mind. Geno is far above Jagr as far as "being a Penguin". Talent and accomplishments are a whole other discussion.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fair or not, Malkin has never had his era to lead the team. It was the Lemiuex era, the Jagr era, the Dark years, and then the Sid era. I love Geno as much as anyone on this board and think he deserves to have his number retired, but I'm just trying to be objective. I'll call Geno/Jagr a tie for 3rd if you'd like.

Jagr, while not leading the team to a Cup, finished with a ton of personal accolades during that run and while his career has taken him all over the NHL and the world, when you think of Jagr's best, you always think of Pittsburgh.

As for the Pens don't retire elite player's numbers, can you think of another player that accomplished as much as Jagr did as a Penguin? Francis, Coffey, Trottier all had big roles here, but made their marks with other teams first. Jagr grew up as a Penguin and had his best years here. Just a different scenario.

But, what Lemieux, Crosby and Malkin did in their era was put the team on their backs and did something.

Jagr in his era threw constant fits and got us to an ECF where we got crushed.

 

[Pancakes]

He won all 5 of his Art Ross trophies here, and won two Cups as well. Yes his number should be retired 100%. It shouldn't even be a question or something anyone involved thinks twice about.

 

[Shady Machine]

But, what Lemieux, Crosby and Malkin did in their era was put the team on their backs and did something.

Jagr in his era threw constant fits and got us to an ECF where we got crushed.

Sid had Geno and Geno had Sid. Who did Jagr have?

 

[Gurglesons]

Sid had Geno and Geno had Sid. Who did Jagr have?

That’s fine. But, when Jagr did have Lemieux he took a serious back seat when it came to playoffs or he threw a fit like when Lemieux unretired.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

11 seasons, 2 cups, a hart, and 5 scoring championships. When Mario was out of commission, Jags was the main reason the Pens were still able to remain competitive. Say what you want about his personality, but no one can dispute how monumental his on ice contributions were to this club for over a decade.

 

[gopens66]

1998 Pittsburgh Penguins Centers:

Stu Barnes
Brian Bonin
Jan Hrdina
Robert Lang
Kip Miller
Sean Pronger
Ryan Savoia
German Titov
Tyler Wright
Harry York

I'm not listing Straka because he mostly played wing.

 

[Turin]

I’m torn. It’s kind of a badass organizational move to deny retiring a guy’s number who won 5 scoring titles and multiple championships, simply because you can. Like, they’re the only franchise who can say they had better player(s) than Jagr and that 68 made his bed.

On the other hand, winning heals all wounds and Jagr is a legendary player who accomplished everything legendary in Pittsburgh.

 

[Shady Machine]

He won all 5 of his Art Ross trophies here, and won two Cups as well. Yes his number should be retired 100%. It shouldn't even be a question or something anyone involved thinks twice about.

Yup and it's pretty clear Morehouse agrees based on Mackey's 20 thoughts piece last week:

7. While we’re getting all nostalgic, I can’t wait to see what the Penguins do about a player who wore that sweater, Jaromir Jagr.

Then again, the way Morehouse made it sound when I asked about any sort of jersey retirement ceremony for Jagr, we may be waiting a while for that special day.

“As soon as he stops playing,” Morehouse said with a laugh. “You don’t talk about hanging someone’s jersey up until they’re done playing. As soon as he’s done playing, we’ll have that conversation with him.”

Morehouse wasn’t with the Penguins when Jagr was here, but he did grow up in Beechview. Like anybody who’s from here, he grasps the importance Jagr has played in the franchise’s history.

Morehouse knows the significance of the time Jagr does come back — when Jagr’s there with Mario Lemieux, and they’re watching No. 68 being raised to the rafters.

“[Jagr] talks about how much of a mentor Mario was to him and how much he appreciated what Pittsburgh did for him in his career,” Morehouse said. “His best years were here. I think for fans, a lot of us had hurt feelings. We didn’t want to see him go. The team had to do what the team had to do, and he had to do what he had to do. I think that’s when business kind of gets in the way of team dynamics.

“I wasn’t here when it happened. I don’t know all the background behind it. What I do know is he’s one of the best players to have ever played the game. He wore a Penguins jersey. We’re proud to have had him as a player. When he’s done playing, we’ll have a discussion with him.”

20 Penguins Thoughts: ‘He’s Kris Letang. He’s very, very good.’

 

[Shady Machine]

That’s fine. But, when Jagr did have Lemieux he took a serious back seat when it came to playoffs or he threw a fit like when Lemieux unretired.

He was 20 years old when they won the Cups.

He has a career 201 points in 208 playoff games (5th all time in total playoff points). That's pretty impressive and includes stats from his later years when he was less effective.

 

[Gurglesons]

He was 20 years old when they won the Cups.

I was talking more 93 and 96 and 01.

 

[Peat]

Fair or not, Malkin has never had his era to lead the team. It was the Lemiuex era, the Jagr era, the Dark years, and then the Sid era. I love Geno as much as anyone on this board and think he deserves to have his number retired, but I'm just trying to be objective. I'll call Geno/Jagr a tie for 3rd if you'd like.

This has always been the era of the Two Headed Monster to me (albeit as a latecomer).

But I know not everyone sees it that way and to me, that's why Geno is so special to the Pens. How many guys of his talent have there been in the NHL who've been willing to forego having their time as The Guy in order to do right by their current org? His loyalty is incredible and should be valued higher than Jagr's luck in having the timing right to have an era of his own. Give me the better servant, not the more prominent one.

 

[EightyOne]

Nope. HOF yes yes yes.

But no 68 in these rafters. Sorry.

 

[Shady Machine]

I was talking more 93 and 96 and 01.

I can't recall in too much detail as I was only 10 years old in '96, but just based on stats, Jagr did pretty well:

'93: 9 points in 12 games vs Lemieux at 18 points in 11 games
'96: 23 points in 18 games vs Lemieux at 27 points in 18 games
'01: 12 points in 16 games vs Lemieux at 17 points in 18 games

If your argument is that Lemieux was better than Jagr, I agree! But I don't see what that has to do with whether Jagr is deserving of having his number retired. That's still good playoff production overall and very good in '96.

 

[Gurglesons]

I can't recall in too much detail as I was only 10 years old in '96, but just based on stats, Jagr did pretty well:

'93: 9 points in 12 games vs Lemieux at 18 points in 11 games
'96: 23 points in 18 games vs Lemieux at 27 points in 18 games
'01: 12 points in 16 games vs Lemieux at 17 points in 18 games

If your argument is that Lemieux was better than Jagr, I agree! But I don't see what that has to do with whether Jagr is deserving of having his number retired. That's still good playoff production overall and very good in '96.

I think my point is that we’ve seen what exemplary is both on and off the ice in Lemieux and especially Sid and Geno.

Why should we reward someone who while generational on the ice was a total prick and f’d over our franchise multiple times?

Especially since Lemieux and Sid are clearly better players career wise and Geno was arguably the primary reason in 09 we won a cup.

Like, doesn’t it cheapen it if you put Jagr in the same category as Crosby, Malkin and Lemieux? Regardless of his stretch of play from 93 onwards.

 

[DegenX]

Yup and it's pretty clear Morehouse agrees based on Mackey's 20 thoughts piece last week:



20 Penguins Thoughts: ‘He’s Kris Letang. He’s very, very good.’

I wouldn't say it's pretty clear he agrees. 'He's still playing, when he's done playing we'll talk about it' is total double speak that is intended to be taken as being in favor of whichever side of the topic you support.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I love that the Penguins have a very high standard for jersey retirement and I am not someone who ever got around to forgiving Jagr...but not retiring #68 at least eventually would be a farce.

Maybe you could make an argument if he wore a common number, but 68 is synonymous with him and we all damn well know nobody is ever going to wear that jersey with this team again. He may be a petty jackass, but that doesn't mean the franchise should be in return. He's an all-time great and spent far more time with the Penguins than with anyone else, this is a slam dunk case. The only question is when...and in that case I'm perfectly fine with waiting a while.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think my point is that we’ve seen what exemplary is both on and off the ice in Lemieux and especially Sid and Geno.

Why should we reward someone who while generational on the ice was a total prick and f’d over our franchise multiple times?

Especially since Lemieux and Sid are clearly better players career wise and Geno was arguably the primary reason in 09 we won a cup.

Like, doesn’t it cheapen it if you put Jagr in the same category as Crosby, Malkin and Lemieux? Regardless of his stretch of play from 93 onwards.

Yeah that's fair. I can understand that and each team can set their own standards. If the Penguins org wants to only have number retirements for those that have played their entire career in Pittsburgh and built an all positive legacy, I respect that.

I just think the organization believes that a home coming for Jagr is in the best interest of everyone. Time will tell if Jagr will play ball and come to the table with whatever they ask in order to make it happen.

 

[Shady Machine]

I wouldn't say it's pretty clear he agrees. 'He's still playing, when he's done playing we'll talk about it' is total double speak that is intended to be taken as being in favor of whichever side of the topic you support.

I don't think you even answer the question the way Morehouse did if you weren't seriously considering it. He left it too open for me to think they won't do it.

 

[DegenX]

I don't think you even answer the question the way Morehouse did if you weren't seriously considering it. He left it too open for me to think they won't do it.

He didn't just volunteer the information. He was asked about it directly. And he gave a totally PR answer. You can choose to interpret it however you want, as is generally the intention with comments like that. With Morehouse, the bottom line is always going to be about image and money. If it doesn't hurt the Pens and it makes them money, he'll do it. Currently, he would alienate a large enough portion of the folks who buy tickets that it's probably not going to happen any time soon.

 

[EightyOne]

. And I don't blame him for feeling like he's "dying alive" on a crappy Pens team during the lean years.

Let's address this. It was in late 2000.

The team was still making playoffs.

Here's who he had to play with. Limited depth sure. Be he still got to play.

The lean years were when he left.