I think the trouble with that transaction would be that the value of the other item is easily determined to be less than $400. Youèd need something less easily defined, like something that could be described as art.
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
So if I complain about drug dealers in my neighbourhood (they're driving down my property value!), and the police do something about it, that's a problem?
Buck Aki Berg
Done with this place
Yes seriously. It's not every scalper that wants to make a mint selling tickets at 2-3x the value, AND go all the way downtown to stand outside in the cold waving their tickets around. It's also not every prospective buyer that wants to go all the way downtown and *hope* that someone has tickets up for grabs at a price they can afford.
This isn't unique to ticket scalping - here in Ottawa, a university student got tagged with a $600 fine for selling her university bus pass on craigslist.
Scalping and illegally selling things isn't "more illegal" based on the location.
hatterson
Registered User
Some things I'd like to note:
- Per Manitoba state law scalping (or more specifically selling a ticket above face value) is against the law. Regardless of how stupid the law may be, it's the law. It is a misdemeanor.
- The job of the police is to enforce the law. Not to decide which laws are stupid and which they'll ignore. If they are aware of someone committing a crime, it is their job to take action.
- One reason scalping laws exist is because scalpers *rarely* report scalping income on taxes. Having a ticket sell for $50 from TNSE and then $900 from a scalper, rather than just $900 from TNSE, represents a large potential loss of taxes from the government
- The proper resolution for a citizen unhappy about the law is not to simply break it and then complain about the consequences. It is to petition the government to repeal the law.
Complaining that the police are enforcing a law just strikes me as stupid.
- Per Manitoba state law scalping (or more specifically selling a ticket above face value) is against the law. Regardless of how stupid the law may be, it's the law. It is a misdemeanor.
- The job of the police is to enforce the law. Not to decide which laws are stupid and which they'll ignore. If they are aware of someone committing a crime, it is their job to take action.
- One reason scalping laws exist is because scalpers *rarely* report scalping income on taxes. Having a ticket sell for $50 from TNSE and then $900 from a scalper, rather than just $900 from TNSE, represents a large potential loss of taxes from the government
- The proper resolution for a citizen unhappy about the law is not to simply break it and then complain about the consequences. It is to petition the government to repeal the law.
Complaining that the police are enforcing a law just strikes me as stupid.
This is an interesting statement. If that ticket was not scalped it would have just been sold for $50 and the government would have got whatever their cut was from it. Yet you claim that the government is 'losing' money from scalped tickets. So if the government got it's cut from scalped tickets then scalping would be fine? So much for being all concerned about protecting the consumer and all that nonsense lol. You also seem to be indirectly claiming that scalpers are taking money from TNSE, which is not true.
One way of overturning laws is civil disobediance, whether it is practical here I do not know. That said, if TNSE wants one thing and average joe citizens want another, we would be pretty naive to think that average joe would stand too much of a chance no?
OthmarAmmann
Omnishambles
I don't think it's against state law in Manitoba and I don't think anything is a misdemeanor anywhere in Canada.
hatterson
Registered User
By eliminating scalping the government is preventing that flow of money that is functionally untaxable. If I can't spend $900 on a scalped ticket I'm likely to spend that $900 on other products which *are* taxable.
In general the government is also more willing to listen to a company that pays taxes rather than a scalper who doesn't (on his scalping income) in determining their policies. Secondary demand is also much harder for the originator to track which makes it harder for them to set a true market value which can lead to them underpricing tickets.
Scalping tickets for profit would not fall under the category of civil disobediance. Perhaps if they were scalping them for a charity then it would be a more valid argument. Either way, I can't find myself feeling too sorry for people being arrested after committing a crime.
hatterson
Registered User
Sorry, said state instead of province.
And I should have more technically said "misdemeanor type" offense. I guess the closest technical equivalent would be a summary offence.
Who is to say the scalper will not spend the profits on taxable items. What difference would it make to the government anyway? It is a zero sum game.
As far as true market value goes, teams should be able to observe what people are paying for scalped merchandise if they want to have an insight in to what people are willing to pay. If teams are not intelligent enough to figure out what the marketplace is for tickets then it is nobody's fault but theirs.
hatterson
Registered User
It's not a full zero sum game as the $900 I spent on a scalped ticket is blow money for me whereas it may be money that goes to your mortgage or similar. Either way, the government wants to tax money whenever it changes hands. If I sell something to you for $900 and then you sell something to me for $900 the government wants tax income on both of those sales.
So? The people that want to spend $900 bucks for a ticket should be able to. Who are they hurting? Nobody is being forced to here. It just shows the demand in the marketplace. If people were not willing to pay more than $20 bucks for a ticket then that is what tickets would be. I do give you credit for admitting what these laws are really all about though - governments getting their cut, as opposed to the whole protecting consumers from exploitation nonsense. It just shows how ridiculous these laws are.
hatterson
Registered User
That's the difference between the law that says "scalping is illegal" and the thought people have that "scalping is wrong".
Scalping is illegal primarily because the government doesn't get their cut.
People don't like scalping because they want to pay less for a ticket. As much as "true Americans" say they love capitalism, very few of them actually like the workings of supply and demand, at least when supply is low in comparison to demand.
OthmarAmmann
Omnishambles
Hockey Team
Hunger Force
Actually it is. A lot of places have laws specifically against selling tickets within X distance of the location where the event is held.
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,215
Yepp. I saw what ya did there... The anti-scalping law in Manitoba falls under the "Amusements Act".
Wonderful nom de guerre & misnomer if ever there was one huh?.
Scalping = IIlegal (no taxes paid)
Ticket Broker = Legal (licensed, taxes paid)
Last September the Province of Quebec introduced legislation to prohibit legally licensed "ticket brokers" from selling ducats over the internet at usually highly inflated prices, again, in the name of the always politically correct consumer protection. Opponents argued that if you did that, the brokers could simply move their domains to Ontario, NB, NY or wherever, people still getting gouged and the double whammy in the loss of tens of millions in taxes the brokers based in Montreal, Laval etc now pay to the province.
How do you know the scalper didn't send the tax to rev. Canada,he may well have.
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,215
... and check the extra crispy bills he gave you in change for laser print signatures.
hatterson
Registered User
If you honestly believe that any significant portion of scalping income gets reported on taxes then there's really no reason for me to continue this conversation.
Cawz
Registered User
Yeah, I wonder if the people who got charged were just too lazy to make their money off a hockey card or puck or pen or something that had to be included with the face value tickets. It seems like a pretty simple way to get around the law.
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
Cawz
Registered User
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
I'm surprised you would miss two key but dissimilar issues.
The first is the question of scalping, which you assume is only for a value higher than the initial sale price. The second is the unilaterally produced contract between the ticket seller and any buyer.
Why should public laws be created that essentially help a corporation (for profit entity) enforce its policies and strategy on pricing?
None was created. The law has been in place for some time.
Every product has its own unique properties in ownership. The company can set what ever terms they see fit under jurisdictional law. If you buy a song from iTunes, or a CD from a store you have limited rights to that property. When you buy a car you have title to that vehicle, and the associated depreciation.
I don't have any issue with the art of scalping, on a personal level. TNSE had purchased a franchise from Atlanta, and could not consumate their deal among the BOG's unless they met a set expectation on season ticket sales. They had to balance a number of items in this action. They needed the customer base to sign on for multiple years. They also have a responsibility to the community that they reside in to ensure actual fans got access to these tickets. Ask the 11,000 people on the season ticket waiting list their opinion on ticket scalpers and their ability to corner them out of an opportunity to attend games. While the person who would possibly attend a game or two with the assistance of scalping is inconvenienced with these rules, long term fans who would attend every night for years to come are the ones provided the tickets. This is crucial for the long term position of TNSE.
It should be noted that TNSE has tempered the "actual value" for games, should they wish to sell, to the opposing team. Your face value for a game against Florida is much lower than a game against Washington.
TNSE is not "going after scalpers". They have placed contractual obligations to their season ticket holders to ensure long term customers have the opportunity to be part of the process, and not alienate the average fan. The WPS are the ones going after scalpers.
I am almost shocked, Killion. Are you suggesting that TNSE is pushing an agenda on the Winnipeg Police service to carry out their will? As much as I detest our near communist rule in Manitoba, the law of the land must be carried. If the people of Manitoba wish a law to be repealed, there are still avenues in which to express discontent. If enough folks push for the removal of the act, it can be removed from the books.
Lets all keep in mind that there are two quite seperate forces at work on this. Contract law for the season ticket holders. If you agreed to the terms you are obligated to follow them. No one was forced to purchase the season seats. The 2nd is the Amusement act in which you are not permitted to sell a ticket for more than face value. If you partake in this you are exposed on two seperate fronts.
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,215
Affirmative ABD. Im not "suggesting" it. Im saying it. Straight out. TNSE's Attorneys wouldve contacted the WPS & "reminded" them of the statutes in the Amusement Act & that they fully expected them to enforce strict adherence to the letter of the law. Will this involve "Sting" operations & the like?. I rather doubt it, but it wouldnt surprise me to see one or two STH's "made an example of" to try & ram the point home if it starts getting scary on the free & open black markets & or with the licensed brokers you'll see on-line with Kijiji & Craigslist.
Unfortunately, this sort of legislation turns everyday people into criminals and is as wrong headed as Prohibition & the Volstad Act. Alberta's rescinded it, BC & Ontario either dont have it or else dont bother with enforcement; Quebecs grappling with it. Manitoba, TNSE will learn the hard way I guess.
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