GDT: Wings @ Leafs 7:30, 12/23

[RedWingsfan55]

Chicago won before Kane/Toews got massive contracts and before their D started going down the drain.

Toronto can certainly win with a top heavy forward group and Rielly+Scrubs on D, but I don't think they are heading for an optimal situation long term. They might need to get creative to go all the way, like Pittsburgh did by picking up guys like Daley, Schultz and Kessel.

Weird they got another contract after the one for 10.5m??? Lol

Chicago Blackhawks 2015 Salary Cap

Last time they wont the cup.

53.6% of their cap to their top 5 players.
Center, winger, goalie and 2 defenseman.

I could look up pittsburgh if ya like? The difference they have and the preferred method IMO is having your best two players as center.


I think it is safe to say that superstars win Stanley cups. NOT depth. You NEED 3-4 elite caliber players to win a cup(one should be a goalie). Which Toronto will have the skaters not sure on goalie. But you still have pittsburgh, tampa bay, Washington and others to compete with. It is no guarantee that they will win a cup, but they are far closer to it than us or a majority of rest of the NHL.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Weird they got another contract after the one for 10.5m??? Lol

Chicago Blackhawks 2015 Salary Cap

Last time they wont the cup.

53.6% of their cap to their top 5 players.
Center, winger, goalie and 2 defenseman.

I could look up pittsburgh if ya like? The difference they have and the preferred method IMO is having your best two players as center.


I think it is safe to say that superstars win Stanley cups. NOT depth. You NEED 3-4 elite caliber players to win a cup(one should be a goalie). Which Toronto will have the skaters not sure on goalie. But you still have pittsburgh, tampa bay, Washington and others to compete with. It is no guarantee that they will win a cup, but they are far closer to it than us or a majority of rest of the NHL.

They last won the cup in 14-15, you were looking at the 15-16 season after Kane and Toews got their new contracts.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Weird they got another contract after the one for 10.5m??? Lol

Chicago Blackhawks 2015 Salary Cap

Last time they wont the cup.

53.6% of their cap to their top 5 players.
Center, winger, goalie and 2 defenseman.

I could look up pittsburgh if ya like? The difference they have and the preferred method IMO is having your best two players as center.


I think it is safe to say that superstars win Stanley cups. NOT depth. You NEED 3-4 elite caliber players to win a cup(one should be a goalie). Which Toronto will have the skaters not sure on goalie. But you still have pittsburgh, tampa bay, Washington and others to compete with. It is no guarantee that they will win a cup, but they are far closer to it than us or a majority of rest of the NHL.

When you have the top 4 guys or top 3 or whatever making so much... you've gotta win in year one or year two of those deals. Having that backlog at top will choke out your roster.

I mean, stop trying to act like there is one way to win a Cup. More elite players > Less elite players, obviously. If all it tooks was more elite players than everyone else, Tampa would be running a multi-year Cup streak.

It's not safe to say anything. Edmonton has the best player in the league, another very viable #1C in Draisaitl, a workable #1D in Klefbom, a pretty good top 4D in Adam Larsson (who they stupidly traded a top line winger for) and so on... and they're tracking for back to back seasons of missing the playoffs.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

When you have the top 4 guys or top 3 or whatever making so much... you've gotta win in year one or year two of those deals. Having that backlog at top will choke out your roster.

I mean, stop trying to act like there is one way to win a Cup. More elite players > Less elite players, obviously. If all it tooks was more elite players than everyone else, Tampa would be running a multi-year Cup streak.

It's not safe to say anything. Edmonton has the best player in the league, another very viable #1C in Draisaitl, a workable #1D in Klefbom, a pretty good top 4D in Adam Larsson (who they stupidly traded a top line winger for) and so on... and they're tracking for back to back seasons of missing the playoffs.

And who is their goalie? Guess you missed that part. Reading comprehension...

 

[RedWingsfan55]

They last won the cup in 14-15, you were looking at the 15-16 season after Kane and Toews got their new contracts.

Chicago Blackhawks 2014 Salary Cap


Same players 42.36%. Difference is they did have Sharpe who added another 8.35% to their cap. The fact remains the same your star players 5 or 6 of them will take up roughly 50% of your cap.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

Pittsburgh for 2016: Crosby malkin kassel fluery: 40.13%

La kings 2013-2014, doughty Kopitar quick Richard's carter: 47.56%

Boston 2011(not sure if accurate based on the site). Chara rolston Thomas Bergeron lucic: 37.9% so this may be the most "cap friendly" but also in the old age of hockey before inflated contracts.


So again please quit the argument that has been clearly proven wrong that when you have 4, 5 or 6 star players that take up your cap that you cant win a cup. Cause the fact is it's the ONLY way to win a cup now.

 

[Ezekial]

The 2010 hawks had 31% of their cap tied up in Campbell, Kane, and Toews.

See? DEPTH DOES NOT MATTER.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And who is their goalie? Guess you missed that part. Reading comprehension...

Didn't miss that part. Just, as a Red Wings fan, I know who is in the net is one hell of a lot less important than the guys who skate in front of him.

And their goalie for the last couple of years has been Cam Talbot who until the latter part of last year was actually a pretty damn good goalie. Even with an incredibly weak year so far... he's averaging a .915 sv% since 13-14. Cam Talbot isn't Carey Price, but let's not act like he's Andrew Raycroft or Vesa Toskala either.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The 2010 hawks had 31% of their cap tied up in Campbell, Kane, and Toews.

See? DEPTH DOES NOT MATTER.

That isn't the message. Depth matters, but not enough to spend a ton of money on it. It just looks like Toronto may have messed up by giving Nylander the deal they gave him.

When you look at it, Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly are gonna be the big salary draws. Nylander is a good bit behind those guys in the pecking order and he's getting 6.9M.

Your stars have to be good enough that good depth players stick with you for pennies on the dollar. That you get a Brad Richards for a million and a half. Michael Handzus for the vet minimum. Artem Anisimov sticks around for not a ton.

 

[Henkka]

The 2010 hawks had 31% of their cap tied up in Campbell, Kane, and Toews.

See? DEPTH DOES NOT MATTER.

Every real contender has their Stars and then DEPTH is the deciding factor between these Star Teams.

 

[Ezekial]

That isn't the message. Depth matters, but not enough to spend a ton of money on it. It just looks like Toronto may have messed up by giving Nylander the deal they gave him.

When you look at it, Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly are gonna be the big salary draws. Nylander is a good bit behind those guys in the pecking order and he's getting 6.9M.

Your stars have to be good enough that good depth players stick with you for pennies on the dollar. That you get a Brad Richards for a million and a half. Michael Handzus for the vet minimum. Artem Anisimov sticks around for not a ton.

You need depth players to come up big in the playoffs or else you don't win cups.

The hawks don't win in 2010 without Bolland and big Buffs contribution.
They don't win in 2013 without Bickell.
Even last year with Lars Eller.

The hawks haven't had that luxury and that is why they are bad now. Anisimov got a raise, he's paced/hit over 45 points one time in his career (45 in 64, with Kane/Panarin) and has never been a 50% faceoff guy.
They decided to pay people for past accomplishments and now their depth is trash, and it shows.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

You need depth players to come up big in the playoffs or else you don't win cups.

The hawks don't win in 2010 without Bolland and big Buffs contribution.
They don't win in 2013 without Bickell.
Even last year with Lars Eller.

The hawks haven't had that luxury and that is why they are bad now. Anisimov got a raise, he's paced/hit over 45 points one time in his career (45 in 64, with Kane/Panarin) and has never been a 50% faceoff guy.
They decided to pay people for past accomplishments and now their depth is trash, and it shows.

Well that would us to the next discussion. In how in this new era in the NHL. The salary cap prevents a long term run of 20+ years with 2 different generations of talent. In my opinion that'll never happen again. Which is why I think the hawks and pens were smart with going all in while their stars were in their prime. Once they're done they'll tank and rebuild again(all though tanking to rebuild is much harder to do now, but still doable).



But anyways basically all I'm saying and I think it is proven by the Stanley cup winners these last 8 years. Is that it is factually false to make the statement "such and such amount of players taking up 50% of the cap hamstrings them". The reality is 4 5 6 star players(actual star players) taking up 50%is the norm of cup winning teams.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

That isn't the message. Depth matters, but not enough to spend a ton of money on it. It just looks like Toronto may have messed up by giving Nylander the deal they gave him.

When you look at it, Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly are gonna be the big salary draws. Nylander is a good bit behind those guys in the pecking order and he's getting 6.9M.

Your stars have to be good enough that good depth players stick with you for pennies on the dollar. That you get a Brad Richards for a million and a half. Michael Handzus for the vet minimum. Artem Anisimov sticks around for not a ton.

Completely agree.

Also if I was a Toronto fan I wouldve wanted nylander traded for the best defenseman possible.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Pittsburgh for 2016: Crosby malkin kassel fluery: 40.13%

La kings 2013-2014, doughty Kopitar quick Richard's carter: 47.56%

Boston 2011(not sure if accurate based on the site). Chara rolston Thomas Bergeron lucic: 37.9% so this may be the most "cap friendly" but also in the old age of hockey before inflated contracts.


So again please quit the argument that has been clearly proven wrong that when you have 4, 5 or 6 star players that take up your cap that you cant win a cup. Cause the fact is it's the ONLY way to win a cup now.

boston was at 44% for their top 5 cap hits. same as '12 LA kings. they are tied for lowest with '15 hawks in the past decade. we were at 55%.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well that would us to the next discussion. In how in this new era in the NHL. The salary cap prevents a long term run of 20+ years with 2 different generations of talent. In my opinion that'll never happen again. Which is why I think the hawks and pens were smart with going all in while their stars were in their prime. Once they're done they'll tank and rebuild again(all though tanking to rebuild is much harder to do now, but still doable).



But anyways basically all I'm saying and I think it is proven by the Stanley cup winners these last 8 years. Is that it is factually false to make the statement "such and such amount of players taking up 50% of the cap hamstrings them". The reality is 4 5 6 star players(actual star players) taking up 50%is the norm of cup winning teams.

Hmmm.. I don't think it is factually false though. With the base of talent that Chicago has had, it is almost a disappointment that they only have 3 Cups. And really, they have had to deal away so many good players for so little return because of it.

They dealt a #1D for pennies on the dollar (Buff), a top 10 W in the league for a huge downgrade, a still top 6 winger AND a top prospect for, by TDL time, literally nothing.

Chicago was burning through talent at a rapid rate. There is no reason that they should be sputtering to the finish line right now outside of having a top heavy salary boat.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Pittsburgh for 2016: Crosby malkin kassel fluery: 40.13%

La kings 2013-2014, doughty Kopitar quick Richard's carter: 47.56%

Boston 2011(not sure if accurate based on the site). Chara rolston Thomas Bergeron lucic: 37.9% so this may be the most "cap friendly" but also in the old age of hockey before inflated contracts.


So again please quit the argument that has been clearly proven wrong that when you have 4, 5 or 6 star players that take up your cap that you cant win a cup. Cause the fact is it's the ONLY way to win a cup now.

I feel like this is missing the forest for the trees. Of course star players will take up a big chunk of the cap. Fact remains that the difference between being able to add one extra piece to the roster or not can make all the difference. 4, 5 or 6 players taking up 50% is a meaningful difference.
4 forwards taking up 50% is also probably not ideal if you want to ice a decent D and goaltending.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

You think 3 cups is a disappointment? I consider that success. By your measure it's a disappointment the wings only got 3 during 97, 98 and 02 they shouldve won each year.

It's not just Chicago or Pittsburgh that has/had this talent either. But going into each season there is about 6 teams that you can bet will win the cup. And these are the teams with the most top end talent. Obviously the same team wont win every single year.

But they have been the best and most consistant for a long period. As well has had multiple cups in that time period.

Theres only 1 team who should be disappointed because they havent won with their stars and that is tampa bay. They also arguably have the most and best depth. But when you run into teams like Washington, Pittsburgh and Chicago it can be difficult.

 

[Heaton]

I actually consider the Wings time with Datsyuk/Z/Lidstrom a bit of a disappointment with only 1 cup and 2 finals appearances.

 

[Frk It]

I actually consider the Wings time with Datsyuk/Z/Lidstrom a bit of a disappointment with only 1 cup and 2 finals appearances.

For sure. Some bad luck with injuries, though. Also our guys hit their prime really late, which was pretty unique compared to most other teams.

 

[TheMule93]

I actually consider the Wings time with Datsyuk/Z/Lidstrom a bit of a disappointment with only 1 cup and 2 finals appearances.

06 was a huge disappointment, 07 was acceptable Anaheim was amazing and so were we. 08 was great, 09 was derailed by injuries, 2010 and onward Holland seemed to give up. Should/could have been better in 10, 11, and 12

Lidstrom and Rafalski retiring hurt but what hurt more was Holland not really doing anything to get another great dman here. He put all his eggs in the suter basket and failed.

Lack of fee agency success, poor drafting, and an aging defense caught up with us and we wasted 5 years of prime Datsyuk and Zetterberg making the playoffs after which "anything can happen" (lol) which is a shame but at least they got their cups and had some other deep playoff runs, which is more than many players can say.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

06 was a huge disappointment, 07 was acceptable Anaheim was amazing and so were we. 08 was great, 09 was derailed by injuries, 2010 and onward Holland seemed to give up. Should/could have been better in 10, 11, and 12

Lidstrom and Rafalski retiring hurt but what hurt more was Holland not really doing anything to get another great dman here. He put all his eggs in the suter basket and failed.

Lack of fee agency success, poor drafting, and an aging defense caught up with us and we wasted 5 years of prime Datsyuk and Zetterberg making the playoffs after which "anything can happen" (lol) which is a shame but at least they got their cups and had some other deep playoff runs, which is more than many players can say.

I mean, anything can happen. The issue was that the Wings were playing too much into the Franzen, Filppula then Weiss, Smith, Kindl, Nyquist, and Tatar baskets and those guys never took that step forward and/or had catastrophic injuries happen. And then DDK stopped advancing, Suter skipped right on by and the entire free world of defense said "thanks, but no thanks" in 2014. Quincey was GONE. He was out the door don't let it hit ya ass on the way out gone. And then we had to give him a raise after a couple uninspiring years because Boyle, Niskanen, Robidas, Stralman, etc. all said no and Calgary wanted the sun and stars for Bouwmeester (sun and stars at that time, because we didn't know that Tatar and Nyquist would stall out). Then we tried for Homophobic Sluroof, but couldn't make the money work with Toronto.

Basically, all of the individual instances that Holland failed to land a D, I was okay with. It was the totality that was bothersome. Like I can understand the reasoning for not making any of the individual moves, but failing to do anything was equally bad or worse.

 

[Spitfire11]

I actually consider the Wings time with Datsyuk/Z/Lidstrom a bit of a disappointment with only 1 cup and 2 finals appearances.

Absolutely, injuries played a big part but that was such a gift to have those 2 develop into the players they did along with Lidstrom's extended level of elite play. That's what pissed me off the most about Holland, just letting the window with that core seemingly wither away. Always talking about needing that "top6 PF, the top4 RHD, getting bigger and tougher to play against" but just re-signing the same aging complementary players every year.

Also wonder how things turn out differently if the Rafalski/Drake signings were made 2 seasons earlier in 2005 instead.

 

[Knies iT]

You need depth players to come up big in the playoffs or else you don't win cups.

The hawks don't win in 2010 without Bolland and big Buffs contribution.
They don't win in 2013 without Bickell.
Even last year with Lars Eller.

The hawks haven't had that luxury and that is why they are bad now. Anisimov got a raise, he's paced/hit over 45 points one time in his career (45 in 64, with Kane/Panarin) and has never been a 50% faceoff guy.
They decided to pay people for past accomplishments and now their depth is trash, and it shows.

And what did they do with that depth? They traded Bolland to Toronto who overpaid for him and became handcuffed. Bickell became a cap anchor that cost them assets.

Good teams find elite, top end talent, and supplant that with cheap ELC depth (e.g. drafting Bolland, Buff, etc.); they do not pay top dollar for those complementary, fringe players like some are suggesting. Considering Toronto already has the elite talent part covered, and they have become adept at hitting on players late in the draft with their new scouting staff (e.g. Brown, Johnsson, Sparks, Dermott, Hyman, Leivo, Grundstrom, Bracco, Scott, etc.), they should be fine.

There is no reason why they can't continue to have terrific depth - they just can't retain those players on long-term deals, which has proven to be a bad approach anyway. Drafting and developing are everything.