Confirmed with Link: Wings acquire Jeff Petry for Gustav Lindstrom and a 2025 4th round pick

[Go Wings]

Right because giveaways = ability to defend...

Ask a Montreal fan or look at his metrics and you will see he has never been bad defensively.

Also if you look at the giveaway leaders most years, 90% of them are people you would love to have on your team. Doesn't really mean much. I also have always questioned how accurate any of that is anyways.

Actually is you look at the leaders in giveaways for defense it is all the guys you expect to be there. For example last season Karlsson led defense in giveaways. While he had an amazing offensive season he was atrocious in his own zone.

I know a lot of Montreal fans they are happy to be rid of Petry again as our the Leaf fans I know of Holl.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Actually is you look at the leaders in giveaways for defense it is all the guys you expect to be there. For example last season Karlsson led defense in giveaways. While he had an amazing offensive season he was atrocious in his own zone.

I know a lot of Montreal fans they are happy to be rid of Petry again as our the Leaf fans I know of Holl.

Giveaways are not a defensive stat.

 

[DoMakc]

Actually is you look at the leaders in giveaways for defense it is all the guys you expect to be there. For example last season Karlsson led defense in giveaways. While he had an amazing offensive season he was atrocious in his own zone.

I know a lot of Montreal fans they are happy to be rid of Petry again as our the Leaf fans I know of Holl.

But since the majory of Leaf and Habs fans are clueless, isn't that a good sign?

 

[jaster]

Giveaways are not a defensive stat.

I agree, in the sense that if you have the puck on your stick you are, by definition, not defending. However, giveaways can be an indicator of play in the defensive zone. If a defender gains possession in his own end, gets forechecked, has a low panic threshold, and gives away the puck, that's generally a bad thing. And an argument can be made that that goes a long way in evaluating how good a defenseman is in the defensive zone.

That all said, it takes a lot of context and parsing out to gain any meaning from the stat, so it's probably not worth it. There are of course better metrics to measure defensive play in general.

 

[Oddbob]

Giveaways are not a defensive stat.

It definitely can be. If you are in your zone and have a giveaway that means chances against.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I agree, in the sense that if you have the puck on your stick you are, by definition, not defending. However, giveaways can be an indicator of play in the defensive zone. If a defender gains possession in his own end, gets forechecked, has a low panic threshold, and gives away the puck, that's generally a bad thing. And an argument can be made that that goes a long way in evaluating how good a defenseman is in the defensive zone.

That all said, it takes a lot of context and parsing out to gain any meaning from the stat, so it's probably not worth it. There are of course better metrics to measure defensive play in general.

What I mean is that there's nothing about the stat 'giveaways' that indicates which zone it happened in. A player could theoretically lead the league in giveaways and not have a single bad giveaway in the defensive zone.
I have a lot of issues with it as a stat and would strongly hesitate to draw any conclusions at all from it.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Now they can get rid of Holl. A return of 4 random 7-11 taquitos that have been on the rollers for 8 hours should do the trick.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Yeah, this has always been crap talk. Because of the salary cap, Red Wings will always be making more money than the costs are. Thanks to cap, it's a flawless money making Michigan machine.

Good years or bad years, always making more money than losing. It's not anyhow big money compared to other US Major sports, but always on the positive profit side.

If we were a basement team for 5 years and no one went to the games, we would still make money because the league shares all of their revenue between all of the clubs for the games.

So it isn't just michigan machine. It's just the nhl in general.

 

[jaster]

What I mean is that there's nothing about the stat 'giveaways' that indicates which zone it happened in. A player could theoretically lead the league in giveaways and not have a single bad giveaway in the defensive zone.
I have a lot of issues with it as a stat and would strongly hesitate to draw any conclusions at all from it.

Totally. That's what I meant by "a lot of context is needed to make the stat worth anything." I do agree with ya. There's also the problem of inconsistency in how it's recorded, lot of subjectivity there if the sample size isn't huge. The stat is fairly useless, but giveaways themselves can tell us a lot. One of my pet peeves is defensemen who have a low panic threshold, which turns into a lot of giveaways. But that's more eyeball-test for me than it is looking at stats.

 

[Gniwder]

Totally. That's what I meant by "a lot of context is needed to make the stat worth anything." I do agree with ya. There's also the problem of inconsistency in how it's recorded, lot of subjectivity there if the sample size isn't huge. The stat is fairly useless, but giveaways themselves can tell us a lot. One of my pet peeves is defensemen who have a low panic threshold, which turns into a lot of giveaways. But that's more eyeball-test for me than it is looking at stats.

Larkin and Seider had the most giveaways last season. In order for the stat to make sense, you need another stat that counts the number of times the player touches the puck, along with zone exits/attempts for D and zone entry/attempts for forwards.

Players that don't touch the puck have low giveaway numbers, I'm not gonna bother to look but I'll bet Givani and Svech had low giveaway numbers.

Also, low giveaway numbers don't necessarily reflect low panic threshold. Look at Elmer, that kid would hot potato the puck to the closest teammate whenever he got the puck in the D zone. When that teammate touches the puck while covered by the opponent and gets stripped, guess who gets the giveaway?

 

[DoMakc]

It is interesting, if you filter out any D who played less that 25 games, you get 6 Montreal D as leaders in GvA/60. It looks like St.Louis wants them to do something they not realy good at.

 

[jaster]

Larkin and Seider had the most giveaways last season. In order for the stat to make sense, you need another stat that counts the number of times the player touches the puck, along with zone exits/attempts for D and zone entry/attempts for forwards.

Players that don't touch the puck have low giveaway numbers, I'm not gonna bother to look but I'll bet Givani and Svech had low giveaway numbers.

Also, low giveaway numbers don't necessarily reflect low panic threshold. Look at Elmer, that kid would hot potato the puck to the closest teammate whenever he got the puck in the D zone. When that teammate touches the puck while covered by the opponent and gets stripped, guess who gets the giveaway?

Right, that's what I meant by THE STAT REQUIRES CONTEXT

In reality though, when a defenseman has a low panic threshold, he'll have more giveaways in his own zone 'per touch,' or 'per # of seconds of possession,' or whatever quantifier you want to use. But that's not how the stat is tracked, so it's largely useless.

 

[Gniwder]

Right, that's what I meant by THE STAT REQUIRES CONTEXT

In reality though, when a defenseman has a low panic threshold, he'll have more giveaways in his own zone 'per touch,' or 'per # of seconds of possession,' or whatever quantifier you want to use. But that's not how the stat is tracked, so it's largely useless.

Why do you always sound like you're arguing with me even when I'm agreeing with you?!?! LOL.

 

[Retire91]

So theoretically if a player shoots the puck and misses the net and the opposing team collects the rebound is that a giveaway? Or a pass in the offensive zone that is intercepted or deflected. Yeah would seem silly to rate anyone on that stat unless its specifically defensive zone giveaways or something.

 

[norrisnick]

So theoretically if a player shoots the puck and misses the net and the opposing team collects the rebound is that a giveaway? Or a pass in the offensive zone that is intercepted or deflected. Yeah would seem silly to rate anyone on that stat unless its specifically defensive zone giveaways or something.

Depends entirely on what arena you're playing in. Many barns are notorious for cooking the numbers of the miscellaneous stats.

 

[ricky0034]

giveaways are inherently kind of a silly stat to use as a negative because you need to have the puck a lot to give it away a lot by definition

especially with forwards a list of most giveaways is often just flat-out a who's who of the best players

 

[jaster]

Why do you always sound like you're arguing with me even when I'm agreeing with you?!?! LOL.

SHUT UP YOU'RE WRONG

Man, been a long week, and it's not even Friday. I need a drink or 5 tonight.

 

[Gniwder]

SHUT UP YOU'RE WRONG

Man, been a long week, and it's not even Friday. I need a drink or 5 tonight.

I'm taking a vacation day tomorrow, so I'm drinking tonight. Suck it bitch.

 

[jaster]

So theoretically if a player shoots the puck and misses the net and the opposing team collects the rebound is that a giveaway? Or a pass in the offensive zone that is intercepted or deflected. Yeah would seem silly to rate anyone on that stat unless its specifically defensive zone giveaways or something.

To my knowledge, those kind of miscellaneous stats are not supposed to be double-counted, so in your first example it should be a "missed shot" and that's it. The second one would probably be a giveaway or takeaway if the other team collects the puck.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Depends entirely on what arena you're playing in. Many barns are notorious for cooking the numbers of the miscellaneous stats.

Yup.

Some years ago now someone put together an analysis of takeaway and giveaway stats which are recorded by in house guys. They varied widely from arena to arena. As in, every players giveaway stat would be higher in a certain barn, etc.

Even though it get reduced to a number so it looks discrete, there's still a judgment call on what constitutes a takeaway or giveaway.

 

[jaster]

I'm taking a vacation day tomorrow, so I'm drinking tonight. Suck it bitch.

In my current state of affairs I do feel like I am, in fact, sucking it

 

[Gniwder]

In my current state of affairs I do feel like I am, in fact, sucking it

I gotta admit, I'm in a similar situation. Leaning heavily towards applying for a transfer to Farmington Hills. I said Novi in the OT thread, but it's located east of Haggerty so Farmington Hills. I should know better since my parents lived in the city.

Anyways, have a good weekend. I'm about to start mine soon.

 

[Frk It]

SHUT UP YOU'RE WRONG

Man, been a long week, and it's not even Friday. I need a drink or 5 tonight.

Yes, same

 

[Bench]

giveaways are inherently kind of a silly stat to use as a negative because you need to have the puck a lot to give it away a lot by definition

especially with forwards a list of most giveaways is often just flat-out a who's who of the best players

Exactly. It's a stat that shows how much someone is involved in the play.

It's a bit like when people try to extrapolate shooting percentages.

Ovechkin scored on 14.3% of his shots last year. Tatar scored on 13.1%.
Over 300 shots, that's only a difference of 3 to 4 goals. So Tatar is basically almost Ovechkin if he was given more opportunity, right? In fact, both Ovechkin and Tatar have identical career shooting percentages at 12.9%. What a coincidence.

But Tatar can't get to 300 shots that have a 13% chance of scoring. He can only hit 150 of those in a season. So when you see someone being critical of a player because "Oh they just shoot so much so of course they score more. If so and so had that many..."

And that's when I want to launch them into the sun via the jaster express.

 

[jaster]

I gotta admit, I'm in a similar situation. Leaning heavily towards applying for a transfer to Farmington Hills. I said Novi in the OT thread, but it's located east of Haggerty so Farmington Hills. I should know better since my parents lived in the city.

Anyways, have a good weekend. I'm about to start mine soon.

Luckily I’m happy with my job overall, just a busy time right now and tackling a project I don’t have much background in, so a little daunting. Got a beer in hand now though so can’t complain. Enjoy that weekend!

Ovechkin scored on 14.3% of his shots last year. Tatar scored on 13.1%.
Over 300 shots, that's only a difference of 3 to 4 goals. So Tatar is basically almost Ovechkin if he was given more opportunity

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