Post-Game Talk: Wings 6, Pens 3 - Screw the Positive

[Penske]

Once again.. 2 separate arguments.

1) Do I want the 12 best forwards in the line up each night? Yes.

2) Do we need our defense to up their game? Yes.

Two separate arguments, UM. You keep harping on this and you are just wrong. But you keep connecting the two when they shouldn't be connected.

He's arguing the point in the wrong way but if we have our best 12 forwards it helps out the defence. We saw what they could do last year and the pressure that puts on the opposition.

How much it helps (if your very good at algorithms we might find out more precisely) who knows but it definitely does.

 

[ColePens]

He's arguing the point in the wrong way but if we have our best 12 forwards it helps out the defence. We saw what they could do last year and the pressure that puts on the opposition.

How much it helps (if your very good at algorithms we might find out) who knows but it definitely does.

I think it helps our defense, but does not solidify our defense. We need Dumo back to form, obviously. We need Daley to up his game. We need Letang to return to his Norris style defense and stop getting injured, too.

I would say we could use a little help on defense, but your point still stands. It would help our defense.

 

[Penske]

I think it helps our defense, but does not solidify our defense. We need Dumo back to form, obviously. We need Daley to up his game. We need Letang to return to his Norris style defense and stop getting injured, too.

I would say we could use a little help on defense, but your point still stands. It would help our defense.

Yeah I agree and we do need to make a move to have some good d depth. Maybe even replace Daley if a trade works out.

 

[Ugene Magic]

UM, can you show some sort of evidence that Guentzel is in any way a defensive liability?

And what is that about Murray? What mistake are you talking about with him?

Guentzel:

Is primarily used in an offensive position who drives the offense. No different up with the big club. While he isn't absolved of defensive play, that is not why he is out there. He doesn't have that makeup.

You are asking them to be consistent in a way they do not play the game. Speed doesn't fix everything.

Now I'll ask a question, is it your intent to have the smurfiest team in the league?

What did that ever get the Montreal Canadians?

Sometimes your best on paper (considering some of that paper is the AHL kind) isn't the best to put on the ice in the NHL.



Murray:

That you guys would think he would be this flawless savior and Fleury is a piece of trash to be thrown away as soon as possible.




I don't need to be right, but I sure as hell don't want be a negative nancy all the time driving home points that will not make a difference in this teams play for winning or losing.

It didn't last year.

I have no problem letting Guentzel get cups of coffee and be up full-time next season.

Again, the best roster on paper isn't necessarily the best to put on ice.


Basically, you'd remove Kunitz to add Guentzel. Against a team like the caps, fast and physical. I know who I'd want out there.

You'd remove Fleury to add who knows who. Fleury is better then the alternatives, and so far Murray has only been in the lineup part-time.

 

[MrBrightside]

You'd remove Fleury to add who knows who. Fleury is better then the alternatives, and so far Murray has only been in the lineup part-time.

There are 47 qualified goalies. Fluery is 46th in GAA and 35th in SV%. Do I think he's better than that? Yes. But to argue he's better than the alternatives doesn't take into account that he's clearly uncomfortable in the current situation, so I don't agree that he's necessarily "better than the alternatives" for THIS situation.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Didn't Kunitz just get his ass completely run over by the Capitals?

It boggles my mind that anyone still goes to bat for this guy.

 

[MrBrightside]

By the way, on this date last year, the Pens lost to Tampa Bay in OT, losing for the 4th time in 5 games and dropping to 20-16-7. Just sayin.'

 

[Penske]

Guentzel:

Is primarily used in an offensive position who drives the offense. No different up with the big club. While he isn't absolved of defensive play, that is not why he is out there. He doesn't have that makeup.

You are asking them to be consistent in a way they do not play the game. Speed doesn't fix everything.

Now I'll ask a question, is it your intent to have the smurfiest team in the league?

What did that ever get the Montreal Canadians?

Sometimes your best on paper (considering some of that paper is the AHL kind) isn't the best to put on the ice in the NHL.



Murray:

That you guys would think he would be this flawless savior and Fleury is a piece of trash to be thrown away as soon as possible.




I don't need to be right, but I sure as hell don't want be a negative nancy all the time driving home points that will not make a difference in this teams play for winning or losing.

It didn't last year.

I have no problem letting Guentzel get cups of coffee and be up full-time next season.

Again, the best roster on paper isn't necessarily the best to put on ice.


Basically, you'd remove Kunitz to add Guentzel. Against a team like the caps, fast and physical. I know who I'd want out there.

You'd remove Fleury to add who knows who. Fleury is better then the alternatives, and so far Murray has only been in the lineup part-time.

Is Fleury better than the alternatives?

In goalies that have played at least 12 games he is 38th in SV% and 3rd worst in GAA in the league.

I'd be more confident with most other goalies in the league (and probably some in the AHL too)

 

[ColePens]

Didn't Kunitz just get his ass completely run over by the Capitals?

It boggles my mind that anyone still goes to bat for this guy.

Especially because we beat the Caps in 6 games last year without using "physicality" AT ALL. We didn't get involved in any of the **** they do. We just skated faster and out-played them.

Blows my mind, too.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, wanting Kunitz against the Caps is ridiculous to me.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Especially because we beat the Caps in 6 games last year without using "physicality" AT ALL. We didn't get involved in any of the **** they do. We just skated faster and out-played them.

Blows my mind, too.

Honestly I think sometimes that there are fans that simply don't like the idea of a team that relies on skill, speed and constant offensive pressure. This team hasn't won anything of significance by being an intimidating physical presence. Pretty much ever. Or having an old school "shutdown" defense. Or even a particularly great defense, in general.

Pittsburghers are a big fan of their hard-nosed, lunch pail, blue collar, bruising DEFENSE. I think it seeps into how they think teams must be put together. I'm not putting that on everyone who runs contrary to what we are talking about. But I can't help but think it's often the case.

I mean... I'm guilty of it when it comes to skill. I love the speed and skill element more than anything in the game. It's a big reason I'm a Penguins fan going way back. Not just because I'm from the tri-state... but because the team has long catered to what I like to watch. I mean... with stretches of the team itself forgetting that that's what makes them great. But generally over the years... that's been their MO.

 

[Ugene Magic]

There are 47 qualified goalies. Fluery is 46th in GAA and 35th in SV%. Do I think he's better than that? Yes. But to argue he's better than the alternatives doesn't take into account that he's clearly uncomfortable in the current situation, so I don't agree that he's necessarily "better than the alternatives" for THIS situation.

Yes, because this team has been playing quality hockey all season.

Didn't Kunitz just get his ass completely run over by the Capitals?

It boggles my mind that anyone still goes to bat for this guy.

Who has to bat for him, he's still in the lineup because other people who know more then we, leave him there.

Is Fleury better than the alternatives?

In goalies that have played at least 12 games he is 38th in SV% and 3rd worst in GAA in the league.

I'd be more confident with most other goalies in the league (and probably some in the AHL too)

Again, this takes a blind eye to how the team has played. Considering Murray gets lit up as well.

Especially because we beat the Caps in 6 games last year without using "physicality" AT ALL. We didn't get involved in any of the **** they do. We just skated faster and out-played them.

Blows my mind, too.

Letang got suspended for trying. and the Pens were still physical against them.

The Pens beat the Capitals because they had an insane 3rd line.

Take that away and they will have lost.

HBK. Murray still gave up goals, a lot of goals, and they didn't have Guentzel in the lineup.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Ah... the old "the coaches know better than you!" argument.

Aaaaaaaand I'm done, here.

 

[MrBrightside]

Yes, because this team has been playing quality hockey all season.

No, but somehow Murray is 10th in GAA while Fleury is 46th. Murray is 5th in SV% while Fleury is 35th. So yeah, that's the same.

 

[ColePens]

Letang got suspended for trying. and the Pens were still physical against them.

The Pens beat the Capitals because they had an insane 3rd line.

Take that away and they will have lost.

HBK. Murray still gave up goals, a lot of goals, and they didn't have Guentzel in the lineup.

1) Murray played really well. He outplayed Holtby and was tremendous. He won us that series. HBK was great, but Murray was just as great.

2) Game 1 - Caps outhit Pens 43 to 29. Game 2 - Caps 31 to 21. Game 3 58 to 25. So on and so forth. Stop it.

Take the Pens third line/depth away and they would have lost? Say that about any team. Take Kane away from Chicago. Take Sid away from the Pens. Take Geno away from the Pens. Take Keith away from Chicago. Take Doughty away from Kings. Take Kopitar away from LA.

Come on..that argument is pathetic. We had a great 3rd line because we had a great 1st and 2nd line that cancelled one another out. You just keep reaching and we keep proving it wrong.

 

[Icarium]

Basically, you'd remove Kunitz to add Guentzel. Against a team like the caps, fast and physical. I know who I'd want out there.

Yes, remember how Kunitz killed the Caps in the playoffs last year. Oh, wait...

You guys made this very same mistake with, Murray.

You guys think these guys are some real life superhero's.

Murray and Guentzel don't need to be "superheroes" to be a substantial improvement on Fleury and Kunitz simply because the latter are playing nowhere near average NHL-ers in their positions right now, let alone stars. Would this solve all our problems? Of course not, many problems are structural (like the appalling PK) but it would be a good start.

Who has to bat for him, he's still in the lineup because other people who know more then we, leave him there.

So let's close the forum then since none of us makes any decisions for the Pens - the people who decide know better by default, right? Like keeping Scuderi and Adams around, we should have praised that instead of complaining?

The Pens beat the Capitals because they had an insane 3rd line.

Take that away and they will have lost.

That's relevant to the necessity of having Kunitz in the line-up to beat the Caps because? Take away Ovechkin and Holtby and we would most likely have won our last game against the Caps, what does this prove exactly?

 

[66-30-33]

Still can't believe Caps lost that game we had Letang suspended...

 

[ColePens]

Still can't believe Caps lost that game we had Letang suspended...

Agreed. I was in Vegas and lost my mind when Horny scored that OT winner. I knew right there we won the series, but I also thought we should have won Game 1. We outplayed them.

 

[HandshakeLine]

On a related note, Butthole Panic is a great band name, my gift to you all.

 

[66-30-33]

Agreed. I was in Vegas and lost my mind when Horny scored that OT winner. I knew right there we won the series, but I also thought we should have won Game 1. We outplayed them.

It's the Caps though, they never win when it counts. They can have the regular season wins, we take the playoff wins. Pens I am guessing play either Rangers or Jackets in R1, Caps will likely win the division again.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Once again.. 2 separate arguments.

1) Do I want the 12 best forwards in the line up each night? Yes.

2) Do we need our defense to up their game? Yes.

Two separate arguments, UM. You keep harping on this and you are just wrong. But you keep connecting the two when they shouldn't be connected.

On a somewhat similar note, I've noticed that some folks have a problem understanding that there can be multiple issues that are resulting in poor performance, so they insist that addressing (what they believe) the most glaring issue will also fix everything else.

"Why are people complaining about goaltending? It's defense that cost us that game!"

Sure, the defense was poor. But so was the goaltending. Improving one might not completely eliminate the effects of the poor play of the other, but it will certainly help improve the team's chances overall.

"Why are people concerned with Kunitz and complaining about adding more offense? We score enough goals!"

Sure, but playing the best 12 forwards you can means you're playing to your potential. If the team's potential is being able to score 4 goals per game with the ideal lineup, why should we be happy with 3 goals per game with useless players in the lineup keeping them from their best?

"Why are people even talking about the line combinations or goaltending? Our defense was horrible!"

Again, why are they mutually exclusive? If all three, in some way contributed to the loss, why can't we discuss things that may result in all three areas improving?

 

[Fordy]

i guess you can look at the scores and say the pens have no problem scoring goals. but they do. pucks are going in but they are not going in the right way, as a result of extended pressure and possession that wears down the other team. they scored 3 or 4 goals last night. and no point were they the right type of goals to or a result of the right kind of play. the right kind of play is where the other team can barely get a hold of the puck, and when they do, they're already tired. they fight to get up ice on one play to every five of ours, and then the exact players we have on D right now can be confident and make the simple play, and either take it away, block the shot, or give up one that ends up in murray's chest and get a faceoff. win it and start again

kunitz prevents this from happening. fleury prevents this from happening. these lines prevent this from happening. the current D personnel would look like geniuses if this is the situation they were in. the complaints would vanish. i know this because this is what happened in the playoffs. it's really that simple. getting back to this requires guentzel coming up and a forward trade. D is a bonus at that point. i have faith in the players on D they have now, once healthy and in the right situation. offense is more important. sorry to say it, it is pure short sightedness or black and white thinking to say the pens gave up too many goals therefore plug in a better dman. there's no nuance to that and i don't believe you understand the team and obviously missed out on the cup run. "we score enough goals we need better D", i have no respect for that opinion and it's the kind of nonsense people said when sid and geno carried bylsma's teams around. it's dumb. the problems are up front

and i mean be real if you're in here defending kunitz in the middle of all this something is wrong with you

 

[MrBrightside]

i guess you can look at the scores and say the pens have no problem scoring goals. but they do. pucks are going in but they are not going in the right way, as a result of extended pressure and possession that wears down the other team. they scored 3 or 4 goals last night. and no point were they the right type of goals to or a result of the right kind of play. the right kind of play is where the other team can barely get a hold of the puck, and when they do, they're already tired. they fight to get up ice on one play to every five of ours, and then the exact players we have on D right now can be confident and make the simple play, and either take it away, block the shot, or give up one that ends up in murray's chest and get a faceoff. win it and start again

kunitz prevents this from happening. fleury prevents this from happening. these lines prevent this from happening. the current D personnel would look like geniuses if this is the situation they were in. the complaints would vanish. i know this because this is what happened in the playoffs. it's really that simple. getting back to this requires guentzel coming up and a forward trade. D is a bonus at that point. i have faith in the players on D they have now, once healthy and in the right situation. offense is more important. sorry to say it, it is pure short sightedness or black and white thinking to say the pens gave up too many goals therefore plug in a better dman. there's no nuance to that and i don't believe you understand the team and obviously missed out on the cup run

and i mean be real if you're in here defending kunitz in the middle of all this something is wrong with you

I think the idea that they can play 82 games at the same tempo with the same urgency and same effectiveness as they played in the playoffs last year is leading to unrealistic expectations. You just can't play a high pressure forechecking 200-foot game every night at a high level for an entire season. I also think if they were getting reasonable goaltending from Fleury (or if they'd just play Murray when he's healthy), many of these "problems" wouldn't be noticed.

As for the defensive personnel, I think you're contradicting yourself. Yes, I guess if the forwards are dominating possession at an elite level every night and you're getting .930 SV% goaltending every night, the personnel is adequate. But if the forward and goaltending aren't elite every night, the defense gets exposed. I truly don't get how anyone watches Daley and Maatta play every night and says "yep, we're good here."

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The blind spinning cross-ice backhand pass into traffic from Kunitz in the NZ last night is exactly the sort of veteran play Guentzel needs to be watching and emulating.

I haven't seen him attempt that once, let alone consistently.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think the idea that they can play 82 games at the same tempo with the same urgency and same effectiveness as they played in the playoffs last year is leading to unrealistic expectations. You just can't play a high pressure forechecking 200-foot game every night at a high level for an entire season. I also think if they were getting reasonable goaltending from Fleury (or if they'd just play Murray when he's healthy), many of these "problems" wouldn't be noticed.

As for the defensive personnel, I think you're contradicting yourself. Yes, I guess if the forwards are dominating possession at an elite level every night and you're getting .930 SV% goaltending every night, the personnel is adequate. But if the forward and goaltending aren't elite every night, the defense gets exposed. I truly don't get how anyone watches Daley and Maatta play every night and says "yep, we're good here."

We don't need them to be elite every night. But they have to and can be much, much better than they've been lately, and they're mostly struggling now because of ****-poor roster and line decisions.

Go with this roster last night:

Sheary - Crosby - Horny
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Guentzel - Bonino - Rust
Wilson - Cullen - Kuhn

Maatta - Letang
Cole - Schultz
Ruhwedel -Daley

Murray

...and I'm convinced we win.

Sullivan can't control who we trade for to improve the roster. He can control who he plays and where they play. He's failing on that front.