Post-Game Talk: Wings 6, Pens 3 - Screw the Positive

[Dipsy Doodle]

Absolutely agree with the bold. I also think we should try Guentzel before making a big forward trade.

It's kind of nauseating to have to keep coming back to that, but it's undeniable, and it's stupid that the farce has gone on for this long.

Guentzel's the sort of wing prospect we've been hoping for basically since Sid came into the league, yet he's still in the minors despite tearing it up everywhere and his big league competition being impotent.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It's kind of nauseating to have to keep coming back to that, but it's undeniable, and it's stupid that the farce has gone on for this long.

Guentzel's the sort of wing prospect we've been hoping for basically since Sid came into the league, yet he's still in the minors despite tearing it up everywhere and his big league competition being impotent.

It should obviously be Kunitz who sits for him, but I would even be happy with Wilson or Kuhn sitting to get him some time. With the talk of trading for Lando, I'm nervous that we might trade Guentzel in the deal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He REALLY seems to want to make Horny work with Geno. I don't know if its because he doesn't like him with Sid, or just because he wants to create another option going forward. Its weird at this point.

Definitely. Sully's just pissing in the wind at this point.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Definitely. Sully's just pissing in the wind at this point.

and until we were losing, I was actually OK with it. The lines weren't really working, but I get the desire to have some more flexibility with Horny. But man its just not working. Again. And again. Honestly, the best chance I can think to make it work is Sheary or Guentzel on the other side. Both Horny and Hags need some skill on the other wing.

 

[Gurglesons]

They will play right around 20 minutes, which is a number I think they can both do just fine if we get the rest of the team playing well. Schultz has done it this year, and Daley did it last year.

So you're going to play Schultz on the # 1 PK, because that was what Daley was doing before he went down in our cup run?

Our PK has been atrocious this year and Daley is one of the main reasons. So you have to replace him with someone or you just do the thing we've done the last seven years and hope it is an apparition and that when we hit the playoffs we will miraculously become hot.

The real move is bringing in a solid # 3 that is cost controlled and in the age group of our core, giving up picks and assets, but also extending our cup chances.

Next year if we roll a top four of Letang - Dumo - Maatta - Schultz, we are not a real contender.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It should obviously be Kunitz who sits for him, but I would even be happy with Wilson or Kuhn sitting to get him some time.

We both know that's what it will be, if it does happen.

What are you gonna do? You gotta have a guy with no special teams skill who's on pace for 8 goals despite regularly playing with superstars in the line-up.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So you're going to play Schultz on the # 1 PK, because that was what Daley was doing before he went down?

Our PK has been atrocious this year and Daley is one of the main reasons. So you have to replace him with someone or you just do the thing we've done the last seven years and hope it is an apparition and that when we hit the playoffs we will miraculously become hot.

The real move is bringing in a solid # 3 that is cost controlled and in the age group of our core, giving up picks and assets, but also extending our cup chances.

Next year if we roll a top four of Letang - Dumo - Maatta - Schultz, we are not a real contender.

If we can replace Daley with a solid # 3 that is cost controlled and in the age group of the core, great. But go around the league and that's damn near the top of pretty much every GM's to-do list. Its just not something that we can just do because we want to. Those guys need to be available, and they rarely are. And then we will be competing with half the league to acquire them.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

and until we were losing, I was actually OK with it. The lines weren't really working, but I get the desire to have some more flexibility with Horny. But man its just not working. Again. And again. Honestly, the best chance I can think to make it work is Sheary or Guentzel on the other side. Both Horny and Hags need some skill on the other wing.

I suppose. But the 1st line was really rolling, and Sid was playing his best hockey...maybe ever.

Whatever the case, he needs to stop trying to fix what wasn't broke.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The Defense isn't fine. They don't have 7 NHL defenders let alone the 8 you want to get into the playoffs with.

They are having trouble because they are always short, and running their top 6 D-men into the ground.

MS said he didn't like the way they played away from the puck.

1st: The Pens are not having trouble scoring goals, but they are scoring goals and not keeping them out of their own net.

Bringing up Guentzel doesn't fix this, and neither is blaming Kunitz who still didn't have horrible numbers, he was a wash, he didn't have none scored while on the ice and scored none. That there should tell you a lot considering 6 were scored against them.

2nd. The lines with HBK, while even if they don't produce, over the long haul creates the mismatches. I agree the lines should be changed. You just can't expect them all to going at once.

3rd. The forwards need to be in position to succeed, this is not about lineup positions, this is more of being where they need to be so they don't have those odd man rushes going against.

Last: OMG.....! Can these guys get the darn puck on net. If you are that close in there is no need for slapshots that never touch it and shoot there way to corners out of the zone for loss of offensive zone possession. Half Slappers and hard wrist shots are all that you really need. Can't count how many last night lost them offensive zone possession. You'll never be able to get into position if it leaves the zone that fast.

All in all, this says they need to get the defense figured out first.

What they are doing away from the puck can be fixed, as is the forward lineup.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I do agree we need a depth D-man.

 

[ColePens]

UM.. you keep saying bringing up Guentzel doesn't fix the defense, but nobody is saying that. Bringing up Jake DOES help put the best 12 forwards on the ice. They are 2 separate arguments and you keep combining them.

 

[Gurglesons]

If we can replace Daley with a solid # 3 that is cost controlled and in the age group of the core, great. But go around the league and that's damn near the top of pretty much every GM's to-do list. Its just not something that we can just do because we want to. Those guys need to be available, and they rarely are. And then we will be competing with half the league to acquire them.

Kulikov, Edler, Stone, and Enstrom are all players I would take a risk on. When you trade for them you just don't honor their NMC or NTC so that if they don't pan out you can expose them in the expansion.

 

[Ugene Magic]

UM.. you keep saying bringing up Guentzel doesn't fix the defense, but nobody is saying that. Bringing up Jake DOES help put the best 12 forwards on the ice. They are 2 separate arguments and you keep combining them.

Now I guess this where you are going to say Guentzel is some kinda defensive stalwart.

I don't think he has the size and weight to be that. It'll be just like Sheary, getting knocked down, falling down, getting caught back behind the play. You are adding a liability at the cost for more goals they don't need.

But hey, 3 goals in 5 games, right....

I'd much rather add someone who can prevent then add. Not that I'm saying I don't want them to add.

So, when you say the best 12, you only mean scoring goals. Guentzel at this stage is going to be a mixed bag then being what happen in his first 2 games.

You guys made this very same mistake with, Murray.

You guys think these guys are some real life superhero's.

They come with caution. They'll make mistakes, and they need time.

You guys are in such a hurry.

 

[ColePens]

Once again.. 2 separate arguments.

1) Do I want the 12 best forwards in the line up each night? Yes.

2) Do we need our defense to up their game? Yes.

Two separate arguments, UM. You keep harping on this and you are just wrong. But you keep connecting the two when they shouldn't be connected.

 

[Ogrezilla]

UM, can you show some sort of evidence that Guentzel is in any way a defensive liability?

And what is that about Murray? What mistake are you talking about with him?

 

[WayneSid9987]

Yea, what you have to remember is the identity they established last year.
This teams best defense is 4 lines deep/with pace coming at you with a ton of offensive zone time + chances + dangerous scoring chances that wears out opponents.

They most certainly will not contend having to all of a sudden be stalwart defenders/a trapping hockey team.

 

[JTG]

UM, can you show some sort of evidence that Guentzel is in any way a defensive liability?

And what is that about Murray? What mistake are you talking about with him?

He's brought that up before, and the only argument is when Guentzel played his 5 games he was on the ice for 4 goals or something. It's irrelevant.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He's brought that up before, and the only argument is when Guentzel played his 5 games he was on the ice for 4 goals or something. It's irrelevant.

And I watched those goals, and only one could maybe be considered his fault in my eyes. And it would be a stretch to blame him for it. It was a faceoff loss leading to a shot on the other side of the ice. The shot got saved, and the rebound popped all the way to the point, where Guentzel's man shot it 3 feet wide and it got deflected into the paint and kicked in by Murray. If its a shot on net, he probably blocks it.

 

[ColePens]

He's brought that up before, and the only argument is when Guentzel played his 5 games he was on the ice for 4 goals or something. It's irrelevant.

And it was you, Ogre, or WC.. or maybe someone else who broke all 4 goals down and they weren't directly his fault at all.

 

[Gurglesons]

And it was you, Ogre, or WC.. or maybe someone else who broke all 4 goals down and they weren't directly his fault at all.

Also, we didn't win the Cup by playing defensively. We won the cup because we were constantly pushing the pace offensively. Guentzel helps us do that over every single LW outside of Sheary maybe.

 

[Pancakes]

Guentzel was getting heavily sheltered with his deployments. He got a whopping 45% offensive zone starts when he was up. For whatever reason Sully et al did not trust him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The respective breakdowns of Guentzel and Kunitz's play only confirm what anybody who understands hockey and watched each of them play already knew.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Guentzel was getting heavily sheltered with his deployments. He got a whopping 45% offensive zone starts when he was up. For whatever reason Sully et al did not trust him.

He was with Geno, so that makes sense.

 

[Pancakes]

He was with Geno, so that makes sense.

I don't think it's a bad thing to deploy a kid like that that way FWIW. If Guentzel can come up and be sheltered but produce offense that's still valuable. Columbus heavily shelters Sam Gagner but he scores a lot for them.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't think it's a bad thing to deploy a kid like that that way FWIW. If Guentzel can come up and be sheltered but produce offense that's still valuable. Columbus heavily shelters Sam Gagner but he scores a lot for them.

Exactly. Just because he isn't a great 2 way forward yet doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the NHL playing in a scoring role.