Post-Game Talk: Wings 6, Pens 3 - Screw the Positive

[JTG]

Our problems appear to be on the back end to me. Daley and Maatta lack speed.

 

[Gurglesons]

Saying that the entire month of December is a small sample size but using a three game span as the basis of an argument against Schultz is mind blowingly stupid in my opinion.

Except it isn't a three game span. It's a 4 year span vs a 1 month span. He's a good depth d-man, but when you tend to play him top two minutes he tends to be a defensive liability that gets walked and bleeds goals that isn't worth a long term high money contract?

 

[ColePens]

Our problems appear to be on the back end to me. Daley and Maatta lack speed.

Daley does not lack speed. I think his skating this season has been really solid. He's motoring out there. His decision making is **** poor.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Hags and Horny certainly haven't struggled to the degree of Bonino this year. But both can be better than we've seen this year.

Yep. But I'm very confident that it's never going to happen with Hornqvist beside Malkin, or Hagelin working opposite another talent-challenged grunt.

These are the constants that Sullivan should be recognizing and avoiding. Instead, he's forcing things instead of taking what's there, which is a cardinal sin whether you're on the ice or behind the bench.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well yeah, but that's not really something the coach can snap his fingers and make happen. I agree that Schultz should have more minutes than Daley, but I think that would have a relatively minor impact relative to the line situation.

Schultz HAS had more minutes than Daley the last three games and they are mainly offensive ones as Daley is taking PK time. I do think he is playing better than Daley right now, but at the same time this is the issue with Schultz, he can't handle 21 - 25 minutes a night. He's not that option, that's why we need to make a move for a top 4 defenseman if we have any hopes to compete for a cup.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I was never saying it was something the coach could fix. I was saying what I thought the problem was. Our d-men are simply not playing as well as we will need them to if we want to win another Cup.

Right. But I'm trying to isolate what Sullivan is capable of changing but choosing not to.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yep. But I'm very confident that it's never going to happen with Hornqvist beside Malkin, or Hagelin working opposite another talent-challenged grunt.

These are the constants that Sullivan should be recognizing and avoiding. Instead, he's forcing things instead of taking what's there, which is a cardinal sin whether you're on the ice or behind the bench.

But they have been where they should be this year, too. And I think they can be better than they looked in those spots. I guess I'm partly projecting what is likely a Bonino issue on to Hags, because I would consider HBK a "good" spot for him.

Horny can definitely be better than he has been with Sid this year though.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Schultz HAS had more minutes than Daley the last three games and they are mainly offensive ones as Daley is taking PK time. I do think he is playing better than Daley right now, but at the same time this is the issue with Schultz, he can't handle 21 - 25 minutes a night. He's not that option, that's why we need to make a move for a top 4 defenseman if we have any hopes to compete for a cup.

Do you think a team should address everything it can in-house before spending assets on acquisitions?

Because we haven't done that.

If we fix the lines and the defense is still an issue, absolutely, let's look for help on the trade market. But not before, because that problem is glaring and unaddressed.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Right. But I'm trying to isolate what Sullivan is capable of changing but choosing not to.

okay. I wasn't doing that. I was responding to the idea that the problem with our team defense is the forward lines. I think that's only part of the problem. I have no idea how to fix the other part.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

okay. I wasn't doing that. I was responding to the idea that the problem with our team defense is the forward lines. I think that's only part of the problem. I have no idea how to fix the other part.

Me either. What I want to get across though is that we should fix the things we can now, then address the rest later if need be.

We haven't been running close to ideal lines. Lines 1-3 are a mess. So let's fix that and then see if the defense is still as big a problem.

 

[Gurglesons]

Do you think a team should address everything it can in-house before spending assets on acquisitions?

Because we haven't done that.

If we fix the lines and the defense is still an issue, absolutely, let's look for help on the trade market. But not before, because that problem is glaring and unaddressed.

I don't know. I think it's the same thing as hoping for the forwards the past few years to pan out when Malkin or Crosby go on a hot streak. Schultz put up a ridiculous amount of points in December and it isn't going to happen. That helped mask our D issues.

Once again, Lovejoy played a bigger part in our defense last year than we all want to admit. We are really lacking a solid defensive defenseman back there. Literally all of our defensive stats have gone in the toilet and I'm not saying that is solely on Lovejoy, but his departure is definitely an issue.

I think we can fix the forwards through just getting Kunitz out of there. I don't know how we do that with the defense?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Schultz HAS had more minutes than Daley the last three games and they are mainly offensive ones as Daley is taking PK time. I do think he is playing better than Daley right now, but at the same time this is the issue with Schultz, he can't handle 21 - 25 minutes a night. He's not that option, that's why we need to make a move for a top 4 defenseman if we have any hopes to compete for a cup.

Letang needs to be healthy for the playoffs if we want to have a chance to win. And if he is, neither of Daley or Schultz will need to play more than 20 minutes a night. If we can't get what we need from Daley and Schultz when they're behind Letang, I expect we are in trouble.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Me either. What I want to get across though is that we should fix the things we can now, then address the rest later if need be.

We haven't been running close to ideal lines. Lines 1-3 are a mess. So let's fix that and then see if the defense is still as big a problem.

I completely agree.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Horny can definitely be better than he has been with Sid this year though.

I added this in an edit, but I think Horny played a big part in Sid's goal scoring this year. I think the switch with Rust is a big part of Sid's drop-off there. He doesn't work the boards as well, he doesn't create the same chaos around the net demanding attention from the opposition, and he has a habit of skating himself into corners.

I love Rust, but he's not the RW for Sid. It sucks, because he's a huge net positive on literally any other line.

 

[Penske]

okay. I wasn't doing that. I was responding to the idea that the problem with our team defense is the forward lines. I think that's only part of the problem. I have no idea how to fix the other part.

If our forward group we're playing with the flow like last season it puts a lot of pressure on the opposition making defending a bit easier.

It's all connected. Sully needs to put the right combos in place then things will start to fall in line. JR will probably need to make a couple of moves too.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't know. I think it's the same thing as hoping for the forwards the past few years to pan out when Malkin or Crosby go on a hot streak. Schultz put up a ridiculous amount of points in December and it isn't going to happen. That helped mask our D issues.

Once again, Lovejoy played a bigger part in our defense last year than we all want to admit. We are really lacking a solid defensive defenseman back there. Literally all of our defensive stats have gone in the toilet and I'm not saying that is solely on Lovejoy, but his departure is definitely an issue.

I think we can fix the forwards through just getting Kunitz out of there. I don't know how we do that with the defense?

I think a lot of defense issues will be minimized considerably once we get the forwards in order. And I believe that at the very least, we need to try that before trading for a defenseman, because we could move Kunitz for Shea Weber and it wouldn't solve our issues if the lines stay like this.

 

[WayneSid9987]

^Very true WC. Re: Rust and Horny with Sid.
And the thing is Sid may have wanted the break from Horny.
He needs to take the right medicine to remedy his line and Horny is the medication.
Or you can try Phil, of course, if Sid isn't ready for his medicine yet.

 

[Penske]

I added this in an edit, but I think Horny played a big part in Sid's goal scoring this year. I think the switch with Rust is a big part of Sid's drop-off there. He doesn't work the boards as well, he doesn't create the same chaos around the net demanding attention from the opposition, and he has a habit of skating himself into corners.

I love Rust, but he's not the RW for Sid. It sucks, because he's a huge net positive on literally any other line.

Yeah I don't know why Hornqvist was moved from Sid. That line has never been bad. Maybe an odd game here and there but over the bigger picture Hornqvist and Sid have worked.

It's frustrating for us because it makes too much sense. Sully and JR might have a bigger picture plan but it gets harder and harder to believe that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Letang needs to be healthy for the playoffs if we want to have a chance to win. And if he is, neither of Daley or Schultz will need to play more than 20 minutes a night. If we can't get what we need from Daley and Schultz when they're behind Letang, I expect we are in trouble.

Uh. Someone will? Daley averaged 20+ in the Rags and Caps series. Lovejoy averaged 20+ in the Sharks series. They basically averaged 20+ in the Lightning series, but it was split up because of Daley's injury. Letang can be healthy, but he still has a tendency to start being not as effective when we play him over 27 minutes. If Daley, Maatta or Schultz can't step up into a # 3 position we need to acquire a defenseman that can, and honestly making a move for a long term # 3 is what this franchise should do and let Daley walk and tender Schultz another one or two year contract. Even if it is just an arbitration deal.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I added this in an edit, but I think Horny played a big part in Sid's goal scoring this year. I think the switch with Rust is a big part of Sid's drop-off there. He doesn't work the boards as well, he doesn't create the same chaos around the net demanding attention from the opposition, and he has a habit of skating himself into corners.

I love Rust, but he's not the RW for Sid. It sucks, because he's a huge net positive on literally any other line.

for sure. Horny was better than his point totals indicated. But I still think he can be better.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

^Very true WC. Re: Rust and Horny with Sid.
And the thing is Sid may have wanted the break from Horny.
He needs to take the right medicine to remedy his line and Horny is the medication.
Or you can try Phil, of course, if Sid isn't ready for his medicine yet.

Sid's constant arguments with Horny seem to give credence to the idea that he's not his favourite linemate, but you're right, Sully needs to do what's best for the team, no matter what that situation is.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think a lot of defense issues will be minimized considerably once we get the forwards in order. And I believe that at the very least, we need to try that before trading for a defenseman, because we could move Kunitz for Shea Weber and it wouldn't solve our issues if the lines stay like this.

Absolutely agree with the bold. I also think we should try Guentzel before making a big forward trade.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

for sure. Horny was better than his point totals indicated. But I still think he can be better.

I guess I'm not sure why Sully moved him from Sid's line in the first place. Was it because he thought Horny could do better too?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Uh. Someone will? Daley averaged 20+ in the Rags and Caps series. Lovejoy averaged 20+ in the Sharks series. They basically averaged 20+ in the Lightning series, but it was split up because of Daley's injury. Letang can be healthy, but he still has a tendency to start being not as effective when we play him over 27 minutes. If Daley, Maatta or Schultz can't step up into a # 3 position we need to acquire a defenseman that can, and honestly making a move for a long term # 3 is what this franchise should do and let Daley walk and tender Schultz another one or two year contract. Even if it is just an arbitration deal.

They will play right around 20 minutes, which is a number I think they can both do just fine if we get the rest of the team playing well. Schultz has done it this year, and Daley did it last year.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I guess I'm not sure why Sully moved him from Sid's line in the first place. Was it because he thought Horny could do better too?

He REALLY seems to want to make Horny work with Geno. I don't know if its because he doesn't like him with Sid, or just because he wants to create another option going forward. Its weird at this point.