Windsor Spitfires 2020 Offseason Thread (Part 3)

[OHLTG]

Not to side-track too much, but congrats to Egor Afanasyev (Russia), Kari Piiroinen (Finland), and Ruben Rafkin (Finland) for making their WJC teams.

 

[windsor7]

Not to side-track too much, but congrats to Egor Afanasyev (Russia), Kari Piiroinen (Finland), and Ruben Rafkin (Finland) for making their WJC teams.

Could be all former Windsor players......

 

[tomschman]

Could be all former Windsor players......

That is correct. In my mind the only question mark is Rafkin. He wants to play in NA, since he was here prior to joining the Spits. Piiroinen was already gone and Afanasyev will be in the AHL.

 

[Generalsupdates]

That is correct. In my mind the only question mark is Rafkin. He wants to play in NA, since he was here prior to joining the Spits. Piiroinen was already gone and Afanasyev will be in the AHL.

Afanasyev was drafted out of North America (USHL at the time) so does that not have the same rule as the CHL where you can't play AHL until you're 20?

 

[Buttsy]

Afanasyev was drafted out of North America (USHL at the time) so does that not have the same rule as the CHL where you can't play AHL until you're 20?

If a player is drafted by an NHL Team and is not a part of the CHL at the time they are drafted the rule does not apply. Part of the reason US born players lately are waiting to get drafted while a part of a USHL or NCAA team and then coming to the OHL for a single season or maybe two? In my understanding anyway....

 

[OHLTG]

I haven't found anything USHL-specific, just CHL/NCAA. It's strange that it's either that tough to find or not public at all.

 

[Generalsupdates]

If a player is drafted by an NHL Team and is not a part of the CHL at the time they are drafted the rule does not apply. Part of the reason US born players lately are waiting to get drafted while a part of a USHL or NCAA team and then coming to the OHL for a single season or maybe two? In my understanding anyway....

Oh okay. I thought it was a North American vs European thing so USHL was treated the same as CHL, but I very well could be wrong on that

 

[member 71782]

Afanasyev was drafted out of North America (USHL at the time) so does that not have the same rule as the CHL where you can't play AHL until you're 20?

I haven't found anything USHL-specific, just CHL/NCAA. It's strange that it's either that tough to find or not public at all.

It has to be looked at as CHL and everybody else. Only the CHL has the agreement to send the kids back until they've played their 19 year old season (D+2) or 4 seasons in the CHL, whichever comes first or 4 seasons applying to exceptional status players if they don't make their pro team out of camp they can be assigned to an AHL/ECHL team after their 18 year old (D+1) season.

CHL players only have 2 years to sign a pro contract after being drafted, they can play university hockey after their OA year which means signing a pro contract won't interfere with their education if they sign but don't make their NHL team while all NCAA path drafted players have 4 years to be signed so as not to interfere with their education package, usually 4 years if they don't make their NHL team.

Once the NHL/CHL/NCAA agreement is renegotiated I would imagine there will be major changes. Will the CHL be ready to adapt? Will the NHL work with all parties to ensure any negative effects are offset with some benefits? How will the fans respond to any changes that could affect the talent level across the CHL? There's lots of questions and this year has exposed a lot more problems that need to be addressed. I can see the league and how kids pass through it changing significantly in the next few years.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

I haven't found anything USHL-specific, just CHL/NCAA. It's strange that it's either that tough to find or not public at all.

NHL re-upped their deal with the USHL/Hockey USA back in 2017. It boils down to that the USHL is the only tier 1 development league in the USA and just like CHL teams getting development money for draft picks Hockey USA and the USHL is entitled to their piece of the pie. The USHL will get their development money from having Egor drafted and signed. CHL teams can't get their cake and eat it to from recruiting guys to come here after being drafted.

 

[Teflon]

Slippery slope, some kids are ready for the show at 19. Others not so much, be it talent wise or mentally. The nhl should have an age policy in place with a firm age. It would be better for the kids and the feeder leagues. But once again money trumps all. Modified rules could protect the players, the minor teams, and the teams drafting. The story is goalies aren’t ready til their older, it shouldn’t be any different for skaters.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Slippery slope, some kids are ready for the show at 19. Others not so much, be it talent wise or mentally. The nhl should have an age policy in place with a firm age. It would be better for the kids and the feeder leagues. But once again money trumps all. Modified rules could protect the players, the minor teams, and the teams drafting. The story is goalies aren’t ready til their older, it shouldn’t be any different for skaters.

Disagree completely that they should all be equal. In regards to goalies there are only 62 jobs available in the NHL and another 62 in the for a total of 124 goaltenders. If you're a defenseman there are 186+16 or so in the NHL and another 186+16 or so in the AHL which would be around 404 total jobs as a D in the NHL/AHL. Even if we are just to say 200 D jobs available in the AHL for a 19 year old and 390 jobs as a forward in the AHL.

We are also talking about the top tier type guys 1st/2nd round picks that would most likely benefit from playing in the AHL at the age of 19. You can't tell me guys like Robertson/Harley/McMichael/Tomasino/Kaliev/Perfetti(when he's 19) etc.. wouldn't benefit more from playing against men as opposed to playing against younger guys in the OHL. They would learn how to train at a pro level, how to take care of their bodies at a pro level. You can't tell me a guy like Ryan Ellis couldn't have done well in the AHL when he was 19 years old, the same goes for a guy like Nick Suzuki. We have to remember it's such a small portion that would be able to play in the AHL at 19 that there is very little harm in letting them actually start earning a living.

 

[member 71782]

Slippery slope, some kids are ready for the show at 19. Others not so much, be it talent wise or mentally. The nhl should have an age policy in place with a firm age. It would be better for the kids and the feeder leagues. But once again money trumps all. Modified rules could protect the players, the minor teams, and the teams drafting. The story is goalies aren’t ready til their older, it shouldn’t be any different for skaters.

While it's not likely there's a high number of kids that would be ready for the pros, at least at the NHL level all it takes is four or five 18 year olds and four or five 19 year olds leaving early every year across the three member leagues.. The junior hockey cycle of building for a run every four years would be gone, I would like to see that since every team needs to try to build a competitive product every year even though of course not all would have success every year obviously. When it comes to selling off, stockpiling a load of draft picks then moving everything out the door every four years later to make a run isn't going to be something they would be able to bank on since more and more kids would be at risk of moving on and teams are left holding the bag.

The CHL needs to become proactive about the possibilities while the NHL would have little incentive to maintain the current agreement when it's due for renewal.

Like I said earlier, I think the CHL as a whole needs to make changes to it's business model. They'll need the NHL to help them remain the premier league for development while the NHL has multiple legitimate sources for development now.

The CHL has to become more competitive and the only way to do that is to centralize the top talent on fewer clubs. The next thing is bring in even more talent from outside sources, get rid of the limits on import players. If they want to remain the top supplier to the top pro league in the world they need to have a more global reach in attracting top talent. More talent attracts more talent and if those top tier players can have the chance to play pro earlier in the CHL while playing with better talent then that's the way the CHL will have to go.

Right each league in the CHL, not teams risk losing one or two players a year to early graduation. Some years more, some less. If that expands to twelve to fifteen a year between 18 and 19 year olds across multiple pro leagues then the incentive to play in the league disappears. Why would top tier players continue to come to a league that holds them back?

 

[RayzorIsDull]

While it's not likely there's a high number of kids that would be ready for the pros, at least at the NHL level all it takes is four or five 18 year olds and four or five 19 year olds leaving early every year across the three member leagues.. The junior hockey cycle of building for a run every four years would be gone, I would like to see that since every team needs to try to build a competitive product every year even though of course not all would have success every year obviously. When it comes to selling off, stockpiling a load of draft picks then moving everything out the door every four years later to make a run isn't going to be something they would be able to bank on since more and more kids would be at risk of moving on and teams are left holding the bag.

The CHL needs to become proactive about the possibilities while the NHL would have little incentive to maintain the current agreement when it's due for renewal.

Like I said earlier, I think the CHL as a whole needs to make changes to it's business model. They'll need the NHL to help them remain the premier league for development while the NHL has multiple legitimate sources for development now.

The CHL has to become more competitive and the only way to do that is to centralize the top talent on fewer clubs. The next thing is bring in even more talent from outside sources, get rid of the limits on import players. If they want to remain the top supplier to the top pro league in the world they need to have a more global reach in attracting top talent. More talent attracts more talent and if those top tier players can have the chance to play pro earlier in the CHL while playing with better talent then that's the way the CHL will have to go.

Right each league in the CHL, not teams risk losing one or two players a year to early graduation. Some years more, some less. If that expands to twelve to fifteen a year between 18 and 19 year olds across multiple pro leagues then the incentive to play in the league disappears. Why would top tier players continue to come to a league that holds them back?

Agree with a lot of what you said. I always thought it was odd that fans bought into the whole gunning for a title every 4 years which coincides with the normal playing career of an OHL player. Meanwhile in a given year you will have multiple teams gunning for said title. Gunning for a title every 4 years makes sense if you don't have the infrastructure and have no issues punting picks so far down the road.

One of the best moves the OHL made(they make very few) was restricting how far down the line you can trade picks. In one way it forces teams to be more creative. The ones that continue to draft well and have a solid pipeline won't have issues moving picks because they can replenish the cupboard by selling high on players at some point or when you have an embarrasment of riches you can leverage those players into picks or younger players.

All these last 10 months have done is expose how flawed the business model is for junior hockey. A league that strictly relies upon season ticketholder money and advertising to make a profit won't survive anymore. What do we have now about 5-6 Sportsnet channels, 5 TSN channels and the best the CHL can do is maybe 2 games a week on Sportsnet. Maybe the CHL has sold itself as the best development model for the NHL but they haven't sold the game for a lucrative television deal. How does every other sports league survive a large portion of revenue is from television. If you're still seeing your local OHL team on your local Rogers/Cogeco the same station where they will show a local lacrosse game, some local cooking show you're doing something wrong as a league. In other words the OHL/CHL isn't doing a good enough job for their constituents.

After this year I would be waiting for the next CBA to start looking at how I can get my players to be in the AHL by age 19 because really we are looking at a lost season of hockey and development. NHL really only does care about their own self interests(rightfully so) in this whole arrangement.

Every team will open up business as usual at some point trying to get their hustle on. Wanting your sth money, your disposable income that you use to pay for those tickets. What happens with the 81 billion paid out to people who either lost their job or got laid off?? There might be money laying around but it's being used for necessities.

Give it 18-24 months from now and we will see how many franchises can be self sustainable and if in the end a few have to close up shop that might be painful for that town/city but in the end it will make for a better product, better pool of players, better playoff series etc.. The OHL talks about being a big business they should start treating it as such if teams aren't viable anymore then you need to look in a different direction.

 

[Teflon]

Disagree completely that they should all be equal. In regards to goalies there are only 62 jobs available in the NHL and another 62 in the for a total of 124 goaltenders. If you're a defenseman there are 186+16 or so in the NHL and another 186+16 or so in the AHL which would be around 404 total jobs as a D in the NHL/AHL. Even if we are just to say 200 D jobs available in the AHL for a 19 year old and 390 jobs as a forward in the AHL.

We are also talking about the top tier type guys 1st/2nd round picks that would most likely benefit from playing in the AHL at the age of 19. You can't tell me guys like Robertson/Harley/McMichael/Tomasino/Kaliev/Perfetti(when he's 19) etc.. wouldn't benefit more from playing against men as opposed to playing against younger guys in the OHL. They would learn how to train at a pro level, how to take care of their bodies at a pro level. You can't tell me a guy like Ryan Ellis couldn't have done well in the AHL when he was 19 years old, the same goes for a guy like Nick Suzuki. We have to remember it's such a small portion that would be able to play in the AHL at 19 that there is very little harm in letting them actually start earning a living.

. Not surprised you disagree lol. Again you skew the argument. There’s also significantly fewer goalies in junior and a much lower percentage that ever get drafted. The percentages actually favour top tier jr goalies. If your Ryan Ellis do you agree to play in the A when u have jr eligibility left?!?! No way, not when I’m of his caliber, there is a much higher chance of injury, and living on your own is much different then your jr life. So many reasons not to play in the A if you can avoid it. Drafted players train at a very high level already and are in regular contact with their pro teams. I’m not in agreement that 19 year olds playing against men in that scenario is wise either. Very different hockey, the A can be just brutal, the nhl is a much more refined game.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

. Not surprised you disagree lol. Again you skew the argument. There’s also significantly fewer goalies in junior and a much lower percentage that ever get drafted. The percentages actually favour top tier jr goalies. If your Ryan Ellis do you agree to play in the A when u have jr eligibility left?!?! No way, not when I’m of his caliber, there is a much higher chance of injury, and living on your own is much different then your jr life. So many reasons not to play in the A if you can avoid it. Drafted players train at a very high level already and are in regular contact with their pro teams. I’m not in agreement that 19 year olds playing against men in that scenario is wise either. Very different hockey, the A can be just brutal, the nhl is a much more refined game.

There are even fewer D in junior hockey compared to the AHL as compared to goalies so that's not skewing the argument. I think you're severely overestimating the lure of playing one final year in junior over playing in the AHL at age 19. He played 222 total OHL games in his career before the age of 19 and for possibly half of those games he was consistently the best D on the ice. When he was 20 he played more games in the NHL in that year than the AHL. The lure of playing in the AHL at 19 making 70,000 US for that season would trump any lure of playing at 19 in the CHL if the NHL team wants you to play at 19. I think you also missed the point that this would only be for the elite players. I would also add why can you prevent a 19 year old player the ability to play in the AHL when the OHL will allow 15 year olds to play against 20 year olds in the OHL?That's in regards to your age argument. Elite 19 year olds would play at a much higher level against 24 year olds than 15 year olds would against 20 year olds.

 

[Otto]

There are even fewer D in junior hockey compared to the AHL as compared to goalies so that's not skewing the argument. I think you're severely overestimating the lure of playing one final year in junior over playing in the AHL at age 19. He played 222 total OHL games in his career before the age of 19 and for possibly half of those games he was consistently the best D on the ice. When he was 20 he played more games in the NHL in that year than the AHL. The lure of playing in the AHL at 19 making 70,000 US for that season would trump any lure of playing at 19 in the CHL if the NHL team wants you to play at 19. I think you also missed the point that this would only be for the elite players. I would also add why can you prevent a 19 year old player the ability to play in the AHL when the OHL will allow 15 year olds to play against 20 year olds in the OHL?That's in regards to your age argument. Elite 19 year olds would play at a much higher level against 24 year olds than 15 year olds would against 20 year olds.

If they are élite then why wouldn't they be in the NHL?

 

[aresknights]

While it's not likely there's a high number of kids that would be ready for the pros, at least at the NHL level all it takes is four or five 18 year olds and four or five 19 year olds leaving early every year across the three member leagues.. The junior hockey cycle of building for a run every four years would be gone, I would like to see that since every team needs to try to build a competitive product every year even though of course not all would have success every year obviously. When it comes to selling off, stockpiling a load of draft picks then moving everything out the door every four years later to make a run isn't going to be something they would be able to bank on since more and more kids would be at risk of moving on and teams are left holding the bag.

The CHL needs to become proactive about the possibilities while the NHL would have little incentive to maintain the current agreement when it's due for renewal.

Like I said earlier, I think the CHL as a whole needs to make changes to it's business model. They'll need the NHL to help them remain the premier league for development while the NHL has multiple legitimate sources for development now.

The CHL has to become more competitive and the only way to do that is to centralize the top talent on fewer clubs. The next thing is bring in even more talent from outside sources, get rid of the limits on import players. If they want to remain the top supplier to the top pro league in the world they need to have a more global reach in attracting top talent. More talent attracts more talent and if those top tier players can have the chance to play pro earlier in the CHL while playing with better talent then that's the way the CHL will have to go.

Right each league in the CHL, not teams risk losing one or two players a year to early graduation. Some years more, some less. If that expands to twelve to fifteen a year between 18 and 19 year olds across multiple pro leagues then the incentive to play in the league disappears. Why would top tier players continue to come to a league that holds them back?

Ok, you are hired

 

[ohloutsider]

I think allowing kids to play in the pros early will also skew the OHL draft somewhat. You could see GM's not drafting a kid because they would basically be gone by the 3rd year. Yes the top kids sometimes go in the second year straight to the NHL but if you allow kids to move up into any pro league it would mean all the first rounders and some 2nd and 3rd rounders could be gone. It would weaken the league talent pool for sure. Might hurt some kids but there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.
As many have indicated the OHL is on shaky ground against other competitive leagues. Need rules that make the league stronger, not weaker. There needs to be an agreement between the NHL and ALL junior leagues so they are competing for talent on the same playing field.

 

[windsor7]

I think allowing kids to play in the pros early will also skew the OHL draft somewhat. You could see GM's not drafting a kid because they would basically be gone by the 3rd year. Yes the top kids sometimes go in the second year straight to the NHL but if you allow kids to move up into any pro league it would mean all the first rounders and some 2nd and 3rd rounders could be gone. It would weaken the league talent pool for sure. Might hurt some kids but there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.
As many have indicated the OHL is on shaky ground against other competitive leagues. Need rules that make the league stronger, not weaker. There needs to be an agreement between the NHL and ALL junior leagues so they are competing for talent on the same playing field.

Bettman n the nhl dont care.

 

[Teflon]

Lol I said exceptions were just that. Most ahl contracts aren’t lucrative. There’s many reasons why they should stay in the O. That said. I’ve now heard it twice. This season isn’t happening.

 

[windsor7]

Lol I said exceptions were just that. Most ahl contracts aren’t lucrative. There’s many reasons why they should stay in the O. That said. I’ve now heard it twice. This season isn’t happening.

Won't be shocking if it isn't.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Lol I said exceptions were just that. Most ahl contracts aren’t lucrative. There’s many reasons why they should stay in the O. That said. I’ve now heard it twice. This season isn’t happening.

Like I mentioned earlier guys on their entry level deal as a rookie in the AHL they get paid 70,000 US, not including what they make getting paid if they're called up. Aren't lucrative?? Depends on your opinion I am sure lots of teenagers would jump at 70k for one year.

 

[punch1943]

Wishing all the Spit fans the best moving forward. I'll be lurking in the shadows for a bit but its time to move along. DM me on twitter if you need something. Take care of yourselves...

 

[Cherrydon]

Hind sight is always 20/20 no pun to the year which has been awful. With the likelihood of no season upcoming this year, it sure would have been nice to have dumped assets at the deadline last season. Just contemplating how many Spits we've already seen play their last games in their OHL career. Apparently the WHL is pushing back their draft until Dec 2021. Hopefully.the WJC will go ahead as planned without a bunch of Covid scratches or games being cancelled. I'm looking forward to watching some hockey again through the holidays.

 

[Cherrydon]

Don't forget TSN coverage starts at 6pm tonight.