Windsor Spitfires 2020 Offseason Thread (Part 2)

[OHLTG]

And that is how u stay mediocre for many years....

By drafting out of NA and not Europe during a pandemic?

 

[windsor7]

By drafting out of NA and not Europe during a pandemic?

At least bowler will say he did something....

 

[RayzorIsDull]

I don't think it's necessarily playing it safe as much as it's being smart. Given all that's going on, it's somewhat easier to come from the US to Canada, rather than Europe to Canada, and the adjustment to NA hockey will already be there. Like I've said before, nothing about this off-season has been (or will be) normal.

This is for every team though and not every team is going to operate the same way. Some will actually choose imports that are currently in Europe. It might be normal but there will be good teams and bad teams. You either evolve or get left behind.

 

[OHLTG]

Drafting from NA right now would be evolving, no?

 

[Crease Master]

I'm trying to figure out how its smart for us to target euros already in north america this year. I know its easier and cheaper, but smart? How is limiting the talent pool you choose from smart when the only benefit is cost savings and a shorter quarantine? Obviously targeting the best players regardless of their current location is the actual smart thing to do. Stop trying to spin ownership's penny pinching as some kind of coincidentally beneficial thing for the competitiveness of team. Come on guy, Bowler isn't some savvy GM shifting with the ever changing landscape of junior hockey post covid, he's just cheap and lazy. We all know it.

When we had a GM with oodles of connections and resources for the import draft it was still a crap shoot to get a decent OHL caliber player out of it every year. But for all of the complaining about guys like Starikov or Piironen who didn't pan out Rychel was still on top of things for the most part landing top notch guys like Egor, Sergachev, Loktionov or Khunhackl over the years with other picks. Now the spitfires have none of those contacts at their disposal, and none of those resources yet we're hoping for 2 guys who can play out of this draft? Its looking dicey boys, I'll be honest even if nobody else wants to be. Lets hope the Estonian myspace page that Bowler is using to scout for this draft has been updated recently.

 

[OHLTG]

It has nothing to do with spin or penny pinching, but everything to do with the pandemic. Teams have issues getting players over to NA in a good year. Now you're adding a pandemic and no guarantee of hockey starting on time. I know players are doing on-ice training already over there and leagues are starting up on time. Assuming we don't start on time, even a delay, why would a player come here and deal with all of that when he can stay home, get the development, and continue his career? You can still scout over there and try to convince, but I'd focus on players in NA. It'll be an easier job getting them here.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Drafting from NA right now would be evolving, no?

6 went last year, 4 went in 2018 in the import draft from the USHL. I don't think there would be a run of european players from the USHL in the import draft. Teams are going to select the best player they believe that can help them from what their scouts/sources tell them. The worst thing for teams to do is over think things.

 

[member 71782]

I don't see any advantage to drafting an import that played in the USHL beyond the scouting costs. Scouts already on the books in North America would likely already have seen them saving Bowler any trips overseas to see someone during the season and that's about it.

Quarantining for anyone coming out of country, be it Europe or the US right now is 14 days as of right now. Will that change come the start of the season? Who knows but most of Europe is ahead of the US at this point so I doubt it becomes an issue.

Any imports that played in the USHL or other North American leagues last season probably went home as soon as things started to shutdown so drafting someone who played in North America last season likely doesn't change anything in terms of where they would be entering Canada from. If a few did remain and this is supposed to be an evolved approach based on the circumstances then it's more likely limiting Windsor's options even more since there's an awful lot of teams picking ahead of Windsor who are probably much smarter and more experienced than Bowler and company that will probably consider a similar approach, with the financial backing to do the job as well.

With 60 teams in the same spot I imagine teams will follow their same routines as much as possible. Maintain their contacts, keep in touch with agents/NHL teams to see who will report and draft based on who fits what they're looking for then see how it plays out.

Any imports playing in North America outside of the CHL likely would be chasing the same path most other kids in their situation would be, NCAA opportunities so if they remained in North America so how many are likely to walk away from that this year in particular if the CHL wasn't their first choice to begin with?

If drafting a North America based import isn't likely to speed up the reporting process why would a team change their plans beyond possible cost savings.

If I'm Windsor I take the 2 highest rated imports that will be available based on their 2021 draft status, preferably 2 D and go from there. If they limit themselves to the few remaining in North America it doesn't provide any guarantees, it limits their options and is a complete disservice to all involved not to mention European imports will likely be one step ahead of everyone else if and when camps open and we have a season this year. With most of Europe and Canada being ahead of the US in dealing with the pandemic it isn't unreasonable to see Canadian borders open to Europe before the US if the US starts seeing large spikes with all that's going on there.

 

[windsor7]

It has nothing to do with spin or penny pinching, but everything to do with the pandemic. Teams have issues getting players over to NA in a good year. Now you're adding a pandemic and no guarantee of hockey starting on time. I know players are doing on-ice training already over there and leagues are starting up on time. Assuming we don't start on time, even a delay, why would a player come here and deal with all of that when he can stay home, get the development, and continue his career? You can still scout over there and try to convince, but I'd focus on players in NA. It'll be an easier job getting them here.

And u think the best players available from the draft from NA are going to come to Windsor?

 

[tomschman]

Rafkin was already in NA. That appeared to be a very good pick until he returned to Finland. As with everything else right now, there is no good or right answer. I guess Bowler can always do what Rychel did, Ask Larionov.

 

[Crease Master]

It has nothing to do with spin or penny pinching, but everything to do with the pandemic. Teams have issues getting players over to NA in a good year. Now you're adding a pandemic and no guarantee of hockey starting on time. I know players are doing on-ice training already over there and leagues are starting up on time. Assuming we don't start on time, even a delay, why would a player come here and deal with all of that when he can stay home, get the development, and continue his career? You can still scout over there and try to convince, but I'd focus on players in NA. It'll be an easier job getting them here.

You are spot on regarding the situation and how potential European players might see the CHL this year however I still disagree with your assessment that focusing on the players already in north america is the smart thing to do in this situation. Easier does not mean smarter.

Its similar to the situation prior to the draft rules being adjusted to compensate teams when a player doesn't report. Back then it was easier to focus on the players already committed to the CHL rather than take a risk on a college bound player. But was it smart to ignore the college players? The best teams back then all had college bound guys who ended up reporting, and all of the bottom feeder teams in the OHL were the ones who passed on those players to take guys who would be more certain to report. That was no coincidence I assure you. Its never the smart thing to prioritize a willingness to report over talent, ever.

When it comes to the spin you just have a habit of portraying everything they do as good for the team even when it clearly isn't. If Bill Bowler held training camp in Wuhan you would praise him for growing junior hockey abroad. If he hired Graham James to coach the club you would brag about how he added the 1989 hockey news man of the year to the staff. You seem to willingly ignore any and all negatives if you can find a micro gram of positive buried in a mess. It would be endearing if I were Bill Bowler I guess.

 

[OHLTG]

If the talent isn't able/willing to report, what's the point of drafting them? This isn't a normal year. You have to take someone who's ready and willing to report, which is going to be tougher based on everything going on. If this was a usual summer, absolutely take the best you can find and try to convince them. Now, though, you have to look at all of the factors.

You really think I'd brag about a Graham James hiring? Come on. That's... no. I've already criticized Bowler for his avoiding any deals at the deadline; wasn't a fan of that. Yes, I liked the Staios deal. Yes, I liked the Rupoli deal. Both of those were reasonable in the end. I make no apologies for how I've approached his year so far.

 

[windsor7]

If the talent isn't able/willing to report, what's the point of drafting them? This isn't a normal year. You have to take someone who's ready and willing to report, which is going to be tougher based on everything going on. If this was a usual summer, absolutely take the best you can find and try to convince them. Now, though, you have to look at all of the factors.

You really think I'd brag about a Graham James hiring? Come on. That's... no. I've already criticized Bowler for his avoiding any deals at the deadline; wasn't a fan of that. Yes, I liked the Staios deal. Yes, I liked the Rupoli deal. Both of those were reasonable in the end. I make no apologies for how I've approached his year so far.

Excuses come later?

 

[Crease Master]

If the talent isn't able/willing to report, what's the point of drafting them? This isn't a normal year. You have to take someone who's ready and willing to report, which is going to be tougher based on everything going on. If this was a usual summer, absolutely take the best you can find and try to convince them. Now, though, you have to look at all of the factors.

You really think I'd brag about a Graham James hiring? Come on. That's... no. I've already criticized Bowler for his avoiding any deals at the deadline; wasn't a fan of that. Yes, I liked the Staios deal. Yes, I liked the Rupoli deal. Both of those were reasonable in the end. I make no apologies for how I've approached his year so far.

This is a loser mentality and is exactly how a franchise ends up treading water at the bottom of the standings every year. Teemu Selanne version 2.0 is probably going to say no to you if you select him, so you're just going to target the european version of Chris Playfair instead. Meanwhile some other GM who isn't a flaccid coward steps up, selects the superior talent and does what he has to do to get the kid in camp. Who do you think is going to have the better club when play resumes? I'd rather see Bowler take a home run swing at a star and miss out, than bunt his way to four years of fourth line intangibles.

Yes, I 100% believe that if news came down that Graham James was named head coach of the Spitfires you would have a post about how people deserve a second chance and that he is a memorial cup winner who might be able to help the team. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

 

[OHLTG]

I'd rather see Bowler take a home run swing at a star and miss out, than bunt his way to four years of fourth line intangibles.

The moment he does that, people will get bent out of shape because another Import pick was missed.

 

[punch1943]

Savage interview with Dom Papa today.Savage says league could open at 25-30% capacity (social distancing). With 6500 capacity and approx 2800 STH (just a guesstimate) that comes to about 43% capacity. A number of STH would be SOL. No walk up crowd figured in. What am I missing? Lotta concession revenue gone. Sounds like a plan for bankruptcy...

 

[member 71782]

Savage interview with Dom Papa today.Savage says league could open at 25-30% capacity (social distancing). With 6500 capacity and approx 2800 STH (just a guesstimate) that comes to about 43% capacity. A number of STH would be SOL. No walk up crowd figured in. What am I missing? Lotta concession revenue gone. Sounds like a plan for bankruptcy...

While I wouldn't want to see any teams go bankrupt this could be a major wake up call for how ownership groups run their franchises.


While most owners these days have very deep pockets their focus is on profit instead of building their franchises and the game. When it was mom and pop ownership groups you saw a much more competitive product across the league, franchises that cared about their fanbase and much better relationships within the community.

I've always been amazed how these financially successful people with far more resources than owners in the past had are so quick to complain about finances when things weren't in crisis mode yet mom and pop franchises understood it was junior hockey, it required time and resources to have a successful franchise and when times were tough they literally reached into their pockets to pay the bills.

Maybe this will wake up a few ownership groups to the realities of what it takes to run a junior hockey franchise. It's not about simply getting a return on your investment, it's about working to build a product that fans want to support not simply because you feel they owe you.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

If the talent isn't able/willing to report, what's the point of drafting them? This isn't a normal year. You have to take someone who's ready and willing to report, which is going to be tougher based on everything going on. If this was a usual summer, absolutely take the best you can find and try to convince them. Now, though, you have to look at all of the factors.

You really think I'd brag about a Graham James hiring? Come on. That's... no. I've already criticized Bowler for his avoiding any deals at the deadline; wasn't a fan of that. Yes, I liked the Staios deal. Yes, I liked the Rupoli deal. Both of those were reasonable in the end. I make no apologies for how I've approached his year so far.

Hmmmm so you think it's ok to tell other people in posts what they would probably say but don't like it when other people do it to you? Since you love to play that game let me just say I have an idea of what you're trying to do in your posts. We will see if/when there is a season to see if my theory is true.

 

[member 71782]

The moment he does that, people will get bent out of shape because another Import pick was missed.

Play it safe and settle for likely a lesser talent or try to pick up someone who will make an impact.

Yeah, everyone gets upset when their team tries to get better instead of settling for a warm body.

I don't think anyone is saying draft someone who won't report to the OHL under any circumstances but like the priority selection you draft the top talent available, recruit them and if they don't want to be here turn them into an asset that helps build the team in other ways.

It's pretty bad when any team settles on who they think will report, it's an indictment of the state of the franchise when that happens and if Windsor starts to settle on players that are guaranteed to report instead of drafting the best available talent then there's a huge problem. If fans start accepting this franchise being run this way then that's on those fans who clearly would support anything the team put on the ice, as long as there's a team.

Yes there's unusual circumstances at the moment, all the more reason to go big. If you aren't willing to push hard in tough times and still expect the fans to support you then where's the incentive to try when things are normal?

Tough times call for bold moves not making excuses for not trying to put the best product you can on the ice.

 

[OHLTG]

So, let's say you go big and swing for a major player in Europe. He doesn't show up because of all of this (or because he simply doesn't want to lay in the OHL). Then what? "Another wasted pick by Windsor." How does that help? Yes, there's a chance he could come over, but I'd imagine that's a fair bit less given all that's happening. I'd rather take a big swing at a NA player like we did last year (AND it was successful) and not risk wasting a pick that could benefit us now and down the road. In any other season, I'd say go for the fences and see what happens. This isn't a normal off-season, though. We can't treat it as such.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

So, let's say you go big and swing for a major player in Europe. He doesn't show up because of all of this (or because he simply doesn't want to lay in the OHL). Then what? "Another wasted pick by Windsor." How does that help? Yes, there's a chance he could come over, but I'd imagine that's a fair bit less given all that's happening. I'd rather take a big swing at a NA player like we did last year (AND it was successful) and not risk wasting a pick that could benefit us now and down the road. In any other season, I'd say go for the fences and see what happens. This isn't a normal off-season, though. We can't treat it as such.

You still hold his rights for the next year if you choose to do so. You are so protective of Bowler and ownership as well as the coaching staff you don't want anything to be construed as negative as it would hurt your point of view. The big swing for a NA player last year netted a productive player for 59 games. Spits got nothing for him in return and have a huge hole on D now. Furthermore are you just going to select a guy that will report when you may only play 32 to 40 games and do the same dance next year?? Where's the value in getting a lesser player for 32 to 40 games rather than going big and looking towards the next year?? Windsor waited a year for Panik, they waited a year for Kuhnhackl. Why is it such a horrible idea to take an extremely talented player and wait a year?? Spits aren't in a position to contend for a title anyways this year.

 

[OHLTG]

You are so protective of Bowler and ownership as well as the coaching staff you don't want anything to be construed as negative as it would hurt your point of view.

Protective of Bowler AND the coaches? That's funny!

Windsor waited a year for Panik, they waited a year for Kuhnhackl. Why is it such a horrible idea to take an extremely talented player and wait a year??

They were also in a better position to wait on those guys. You can't necessarily afford that now.

 

[OHLTG]

 

[member 71782]

So, let's say you go big and swing for a major player in Europe. He doesn't show up because of all of this (or because he simply doesn't want to lay in the OHL). Then what? "Another wasted pick by Windsor." How does that help? Yes, there's a chance he could come over, but I'd imagine that's a fair bit less given all that's happening. I'd rather take a big swing at a NA player like we did last year (AND it was successful) and not risk wasting a pick that could benefit us now and down the road. In any other season, I'd say go for the fences and see what happens. This isn't a normal off-season, though. We can't treat it as such.

Well you start off with a GM/staff/organization that does their homework to find out if a kid will come ove, as I said in my first post. If the kid will report to the O, is the top talent available you draft him. Recruit and get him to Windsor with the knowledge and understanding he can be dealt if he's not happy here. If he's willing to come to the O but not Windsor he needs to show up to be able to be dealt which nets Windsor other players/assets that carry current/future value.

As Rayzor said, you don't lose his rights if he doesn't report this year. If it's a high end player with a couple of years to play he becomes a future contributor, the team hopefully develops someone in the system this year who becomes another contributing player or future asset. Building a team instead of looking for warm bodies, what a concept.

Let's say they take someone in NA., if there's many that didn't go home during this pandemic and they're OK but not worth keeping the following year, then what?

As Bowler said and some on here echoed, loyalty and commitment is important so do you cut them loose, trade them if possible, neither of which screams loyalty especially if you convinced them to walk away from a potential scholarship or do you let them play out their years?

Would you have passed on Fantilli in the draft? If not then why pass on a better talent in the import draft if they're willing to come to the league at some point? If you would have then why do you think settling for warm bodies is a good way to build a contender?

Why worry about what others will say? If I did that I would never post anything. It's understood by all that not everyone will report and not everyone will work out. People will get upset at different things but as long as the move at the time makes sense at least Bowler and company can show they've tried.

If you don't want to see the team try to be the best it can be then just advocate for them to deal away all their draft picks, bring up kids from LaSalle to fill the holes every year and don't worry about everyone else getting upset about it.

If you want to see a contender again one day then start hoping they realize they have to do the work, make the changes and make bold moves. The reason I say hope is apparently fan concerns don't seem to be a priority with them at the moment.

 

[windsor7]

So, let's say you go big and swing for a major player in Europe. He doesn't show up because of all of this (or because he simply doesn't want to lay in the OHL). Then what? "Another wasted pick by Windsor." How does that help? Yes, there's a chance he could come over, but I'd imagine that's a fair bit less given all that's happening. I'd rather take a big swing at a NA player like we did last year (AND it was successful) and not risk wasting a pick that could benefit us now and down the road. In any other season, I'd say go for the fences and see what happens. This isn't a normal off-season, though. We can't treat it as such.

R u trying to play both sides of the fence to.....