You think Hartnell is the one setting up these goals?
With his crazy speed and hands I guess?
Speculation: Wilson for Hartnell
- Thread starter kypredsfan
- Start date
With his crazy speed and hands I guess?
Roman Yoshi
#164303
Yes, he is more of a playmaker. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. The issue is he is not a 20-20 player. He's not even a 10/30 player. Has only been a 20/20 once in his career. Wilson has .1966 goals per game in his career and .47 assists per game. Statistically speaking, that's not a 20/20 player and a great disappointment for someone who was drafted in the top 10.
Wilson isn't the biggest problem on this team, but he isn't doing anything to help it either. He has the lowest shooting percentage of his career this year and isn't really showing anything against inferior talent on the third line.
Giving him up for a decent return would be more of a blessing than a curse in my eyes, especially if we are getting a better player coming back.
Wilson is having a down year, but painting Hartnell is this great offensive player is too funny. He goes to the net hard, and has a good shot but he's an awful skater and isn't creative with the puck. He has to have good players make him good.
Take this season, with RyJo, Hartnell had 15 goals and 15 assist in 30 games. In the 19 games without RyJo, 9 points, 4 goals 5 assist, or wait for it
.47 ppg.
Ironically, what Wilson needs is Hartnell type player to finish for him....... Fisher isn't going too.....
Take this season, with RyJo, Hartnell had 15 goals and 15 assist in 30 games. In the 19 games without RyJo, 9 points, 4 goals 5 assist, or wait for it
.47 ppg.
Ironically, what Wilson needs is Hartnell type player to finish for him....... Fisher isn't going too.....
Roman Yoshi
#164303
From what I remember, RyJo was barely on a line with Hartnell after the first dozen games or so after the Torts hiring. Visqi can probably straighten me out on this, but that's what I remember.
What my point, and I think what a lot of other people are trying to get at, is that we need a player like Hartnell more than we need Wilson right now. They are completely different players with different skill sets. Wilson was supposed to be more like Hartnell and has turned himself into a less successful JP Dumont.
PS: I'm sorry if you read that JP, I meant no offense.
You're missing the forest for the trees here. You keep talking about playmaking and linemates and a .46 PPG as if we only need a little bit of luck and one thing to click and then all of a sudden Wilson is going to be what we all thought he was when we drafted him. You can talk all about how great a skater he is - the best skater I saw in the last few years was Viktor Stalberg. After 7 years, he is what he is.
And in particular, with the Wilson v. Hartnell debate - you need to look no further than the last 3 years production:
Hartnell: 84 goals, 151 points.
Wilson: 35 goals, 92 points.
It's completely irrelevant what Hartnell did his first few years in the league and compare it to Wilson. It's what can you do for this team now and in the future until the contract is up.
You can keep repeating to yourself "I believe in you Colin Wilson" until you are blue in the face, that's not going to turn him into a player we need or one that is particularly useful.
At this point, we have to face the facts that we have a dud on the roster.
To use a baseball term, would Wilson be above or below a replacement level player in the NHL? I think he would be below. Far below.
I guess that's where I differ, again, I like Hartnell but we need a better 3rd line center to push Fisher to the 4th.
Fisher is our problem, not Wilson.....
As far as who Hartnell plays with, I know on the powerplay, he still played with Johansen, and BTN stats back that up. Even after almost 20 games of RyJo being traded, he's still Hartnell's most common player on the powerplay at 69% of the time. Which probably means before the trade it was close to 100%
2 2015-2016 Season SCOTTHARTNELL CBJ 123.95 RYANJOHANSEN 68.9%
Again, you keep comparing Wilson's first 6 years to Hartnell's career and then give no credit to who they played with.
I've already said Wilson is having a bad year, I'm just cautious about adding a guy like Hartnell at a steep price. Hartnell is only as good as his linemates.
Roman Yoshi
#164303
So your argument is Hartnell isn't any better than Wilson without RyJo? Just a reminder, we have RyJo! So why not put these guys back together?
Harts RyJo Neal
Forsberg Ribs Smith
Jarnrok Fisher Arvidsson/Salomaki/Watson
Bourque Goose Watson/Arvidsson/Salomaki
That is a legit line up and the best first line we have probably ever had.
Marco Dano playing alongside with Hartnell scored 19 points in his last 30 games at the end of the last season. Their center was another rookie Wennberg. Dano didn't play on PP at all and was leading the entire NHL in points per 60 min of 5on5 ice time on that stretch. Where's Dano now without Hartnell?
The fact is Hartnell makes everyone around him better. Nashville won't get him for Wilson, that's absurd.
I could agree with that. I don't want to be fleeced.
But the deal being bandied about here is Wilson for Hartnell or a variation thereof.
If we can make that swap, then that is not a steep price. In fact, like I said before, getting Wilson and his 4+ mil off the roster may be addition by subtraction.
Do you really feel that in the 7 years here, playing up and down the lineup, all of Wilson's failures can be blamed on his teammates?
Scoresberg
In Trotz We Trust?
Let's face it, this is not our year so we should do an investment for the future, keep Wilson, he's having a down year and is capable of being a top-6 winger. We need to sit him to the top line and not keep him on a line with Fisher and Arvy. Wilson looked great in the top line, before got injured).
Yes, Hartnell has crazy chemistry with Joey and is far better player right now and maybe next season but the risk of him falling off is big. By trading for Hartnell we would shrinken our "window" for a few years and it would put all our eggs in the basket that we win in this or next season. Coming off would be Ribs, Fish, (Rinne) and Hartnell. That would be 3 of our top-9 forwards.
Again, I think if Poile can find a way to acquire Hartnell without giving up Wilson, he'll do it and come playoffs we'll all be happy since Wilson's gonna light it up then.
Yes, Hartnell has crazy chemistry with Joey and is far better player right now and maybe next season but the risk of him falling off is big. By trading for Hartnell we would shrinken our "window" for a few years and it would put all our eggs in the basket that we win in this or next season. Coming off would be Ribs, Fish, (Rinne) and Hartnell. That would be 3 of our top-9 forwards.
Again, I think if Poile can find a way to acquire Hartnell without giving up Wilson, he'll do it and come playoffs we'll all be happy since Wilson's gonna light it up then.
Roman Yoshi
#164303
Evidence proves otherwise.
I'd much rather give up wilson and some other pieces than give up our first.
NSH615
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- Feb 13, 2013
- 11,119
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He had ONE game there where he got one secondary assist off an Ellis goal. I'm ok with putting him back there as an experiment, but that also means that Arvidsson needs to be sent back down as well as that line can't handle two small guys.
I see no evidence whatsoever that this will ever be the case.
Hartnell may fall off, but that's because he's actually playing well to begin with.
Wilson has never been where Hartnell is and is likely to never get there.
All failures? No, but have all 7 years been a failure? In the strike year, he put up 19 points in 25 games. Last year, 42 points. So not all where bad years but many of the bad years could be attributed to linemates.
Again, Hartnell's numbers were pretty much the same his first 6 years too. He didn't blow up until he started playing with top line talent.
I don't know how good Hartnell will be here and I'm not completely down on the Wilson for Hartnell, I just don't want to add much on top of it if any....
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The problem is, what year has Wilson ever really had that couldn't be considered a "down year"?
I'm not saying Hartnell wouldn't be great here and I like that line! Although, Forsberg, RyJo, Neal is still a better line. All time, Kariya, Sullivan and Legwand where pretty darn good at producing. So were Arnott, Dumont, Radulov.
I just wouldn't give a ton for Hartnell.
Last year, 20 goals, 22 assist and lead the team in the playoff, that's not a down year.
and if all of his first 6 years were down years, were Hartnell's also, same production......
Fair, but to label someone as having a "down year" you'd have to base it on previous performance. Wilson's season last year is what we've been hoping would be one of his down years for a long time now, but he just can't step up to that point. 20 G and 22 A shouldn't be his peak.
Him falling back off this year is a red flag for sure.
So are Hartnell's numbers since RyJo was traded....
glenngineer
Registered User
I'd keep Wilson. Add Hartnell to the first line if the price is right. Bump Jarnkrok to the third with Fisher and Wilson.
Or add Hartnell, put him on the third line with Wilson and Fisher. Bump Arvy to Milwaukee.
Or add Hartnell, put him on the third line with Wilson and Fisher. Bump Arvy to Milwaukee.
That would be my want as well.
We do need Hartnell's goal scoring. That type of gritty goal scoring too is ideal.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
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Viqsi
"that chick from Ohio"
Given that the whole point behind trading Hartnell is to gain cap space, this wouldn't work unless Nashville retains on Smith's contract. And that's probably an unacceptable risk for the Preds.
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Oy gevalt. I don't want him in a straight up Hartnell trade, but let's not get out of hand here. Wilson isn't great and he is moderately overpaid... but he actually plays games, can contribute usefully as a third liner, scores on occasion, has a cap hit under $5m/year, is under 30, can have his contract insured in case he ever goes down long term, and can be bought out with a resulting cap hit under $4m/year. None of these are true of David Clarkson.
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Four with Trotz and two with Lavi. Hartnell's best Philly years were under Laviolette. Wilson has had one "good" year (equivalent to Hartnell's prior average baseline) and one year that's about the same as the rest.
That's nice. Hartnell has gotten better at playmaking since. I don't see Wilson improving on his goal-scoring anytime soon.
It's not that I think of Wilson as some kind of utter failure or horrible bust. I am not advocating that he must be driven out at any cost. I think he is a useful player. I think he is worth having, albeit a bit overpaid. But he is what he is, and his value is what it is. And that value is nowhere near fair for a Hartnell trade. That's all.
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Ha ha ha ha. Hartnell still leads the Jackets in scoring and the slowdown has been barely perceptible. The only reason it's there is because he went from benefiting from Johansen to developing and propping up Wennberg (and he's doing a wonderful job of it, to the point that real soon now he may end up going back to Benefiting From soon).
