William Nylander Discussion Thread

[Menzinger]

On the other hand many 2nd line players who get similar minutes as Willy probably also often out up 60 on the year.

yet we don’t rate them at the level of the top players. It’s a classic case of do you produce less because you get less minutes or are you getting less minutes because you produce less/aren’t as good. And the answer is only Willy knows. We know what he can do. At some point Willy has to speak for himself and let his work do the talking instead of us having oppression Olympic battles about his minutes. He’s dug himself this hole and it’s on him to play very hard every game and extraordinary play to start getting the minutes of M+M

I'm not sure I'd agree with that first part. Nylander sits at around 40th overall in point production for all NHLers over the last two seasons. That puts him comfortably at an above 1st liner forward tier in terms of offensive output (most second liners don't come close to that ability/level).

As for the second part, Nylander can play the best that he can - but he also will still always have to contend with the fact that Matthews and Marner are also on the team. And im not suggesting he get used over those guys, however fact remains most similar players to Nylander aren't facing that type of internal team competition for the prime opportunities on their team.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Nylander playing 17 minutes a night as a depth winger is a very nice luxury to have.

Nylander playing 20 plus hard minutes on the top line playing against the oppositions best players means your team is probably lousy and going nowhere. He's a depth point producing winger who brings little else.

 

[The90]

Nylander playing 17 minutes a night as a depth winger is a very nice luxury to have.

Nylander playing 20 plus hard minutes on the top line playing against the oppositions best players means your team is probably lousy and going nowhere. He's a depth point producing winger who brings little else.

That’s a fun argument when he had no problem producing on Matthews wing for most of his career

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Since Keefe:

Nylander: 87gms, 17:29, 35gls/72pts pace

#101 in TOI/gm
#97 in PP TOI/gm
#22 in goals
#38 in points
#18 in goals/gm
#41 in goals/gm

Stud 1st line production despite getting only 2nd line TOI.

On 90% of the teams in the NHL he'd be getting legit 1st line ice time, of course, with a commensurate boost in production.


And he does this while being an all-around player, controlling 56.1% of expected goals when he's on the ice, +2.4 relative to his team.

Through 2 different coaching staffs, playing with 2 different franchise centers, and 2 different GM's, we're still on the Nylander is being underutilized train are we?

 

[Sweet Leaf]

That’s a fun argument when he had no problem producing on Matthews wing for most of his career

60 point player with the best goal scoring center in the NHL.

He's been better with Tavares.

 

[BlueForever75]

There is no need to utilize Nylander any more then he has been when we have a top 6 that we do. We have seen games where Nylander is the hot hand and the puck is a magnet on his stick. He gets more minutes in various situations Perfect example was his first game back against Vancouver. He was the only one going and got extra shifts.

For him to produce as he has been, there is no reason to change things up.

 

[The90]

60 point player with the best goal scoring center in the NHL.

He's been better with Tavares.

61 point player when Matthews had 69 his rookie year and wasn’t the best goal scorer. Also a .5 ppg player on his own in the lottery year for 24? Games.

he’s better than you’re giving him credit for. You don’t consistently put up those points being a product of someone else. For a year, maybe. Not a career. I’m not saying he’s an elite talent. But better than you’re alluding to.

 

[NK94]

Still astounding people have the balls to complain about Nylander when this team is evidently worse without him.

Preconceived notions are a bitch.

 

[zeke]

Through 2 different coaching staffs, playing with 2 different franchise centers, and 2 different GM's, we're still on the Nylander is being underutilized train are we?

Just a fact of life that being stuck behind Matthews/Marner holds down Tavares/Nylander's TOI and production.

What's amazing is that both still manage to put up elite production even with non-elite TOI.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

61 point player when Matthews had 69 his rookie year and wasn’t the best goal scorer. Also a .5 ppg player on his own in the lottery year for 24? Games.

he’s better than you’re giving him credit for. You don’t consistently put up those points being a product of someone else. For a year, maybe. Not a career. I’m not saying he’s an elite talent. But better than you’re alluding to.

I called him a luxury to have as a depth scoring winger. I'm glad we have him. I don't think that's very insulting.

I don't think he's good enough to be a top line player on a Stanley cup contending team playing 20+ in every situation.

 

[Dreakmur]

Just a fact of life that being stuck behind Matthews/Marner holds down Tavares/Nylander's TOI and production.

What's amazing is that both still manage to put up elite production even with non-elite TOI.

Non-elite defensive matchups.

 

[Mats13]

Nylander playing 17 minutes a night as a depth winger is a very nice luxury to have.

Nylander playing 20 plus hard minutes on the top line playing against the oppositions best players means your team is probably lousy and going nowhere. He's a depth point producing winger who brings little else.

He’s not a depth winger or a luxury. He’s an essential part of the team.

He brings puck possession as well as production. He also brings speed to our lineup. What more do you want from an offensive winger? Brings little else is a dumb comment.

 

[stickty111]

He’s not a depth winger or a luxury. He’s an essential part of the team.

He brings puck possession as well as production. He also brings speed to our lineup. What more do you want from an offensive winger? Brings little else is a dumb comment.

Fans comments don't really matter. The coach sees him as an important part of the team. Our transition game without him was a mess and Keefe alluded to it as well. Him bringing nothing else is flat out wrong. On a number of nights, he's the only one who consistently brings the puck in the zone.

 

[zeke]

Nylander Last 2yrs: 0.85ppg, #4 of Leafs Forwards


Teams with 4 better PPG forwards (2):

PIT: 1.Malkin 1.17, 2.Crosby 1.16, 3.Guentzel 1.07, 4.Rust .92
WPG: 1.Scheifele 1.09, 2.Connor 1.00, 3.Wheeler .88, 4.Ehlers .88

Teams with 3 (5):

TOR: 1.Matthews 1.22, 2.Marner 1.18, 3.Tavares .94, 4.Nylander .85
COL: 1.MacKinnon 1.37, 2.Rantanen 1.09, 3.Landeskog .91 ---- (4.Burakovsky .75)
TBL: 1.Kucherov 1.25, 2.Stamkos 1.05, 3.Point.91 ---- (4.Palat .69)
BOS: 1.Marchand 1.27, 2.Pastrnak 1.26, 3.Bergeron .92 ---- (4.Krejci .71)
NYR: 1.Panarin 1.41, 2.Zibanejad 1.11, 3.Strome .88 --- (4.Buchnevich .75)

Teams with 2 (8):

EDM: 1.McDavid 1.60, 2.Draisaitl 1.50 --- (3.N-Hopkins .85)
CAR: 1.Aho .96, 2.Teravainen .89 --- (3.Svechnikov .82)
FLA: 1.Huberdeau 1.09, 2.Barkov 1.02 --- (3.Hornqvist .67)
CHI: 1.Kane 1.21, 2.Toews .86 --- (3.Debrincat .79)
VGK: 1.Stone 1.05, 2.Pacioretty .97 --- (3.Marchessault .73)
WSH: 1.Ovechkin .98, 2.Backstrom .94 --- (3.Kuznestsov .77)
VAN: 1.Miller .97, 2.Petterson .93 -- (3.Boeser .84)
STL: 1.Perron .89, 2.O'Reilly .87 --- (3.Schenn .75)

Teams with 1 (3):

BUF: 1.Eichel 1.08 --- (2.Reinhart .70)
LAK: 1.Kopitar .94 --- (2.Iafallo .62)
PHI: 1.Couturier .88 --- (2.Konecny .85)

Teams with 0 (13):

NYI: (1.Barzal .85)
MIN: (1.Kaprizov .84)
DAL: (1.Robertson .84)
CGY: (1.Lindholm .81)
MTL: (1.Tatar .81)
NSH: (1.Forsberg .79)
CBJ: (1.Laine .78)
SJS: (1.Kane .75)
DET: (1.Vrana .74)
ARZ: (1.Keller .65)
OTT: (1.Tkachuk .63)
ANA: (1.Rakell .62)
NJD: (1.Hischier .59)

 

[Sweet Leaf]

. On a number of nights, he's the only one who consistently brings the puck in the zone.

OK

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Common Willy .. take these games over .. you got skill to be best guy whenever u want to be ... make it happen ... da big guy

 

[Sweet Leaf]

He’s not a depth winger or a luxury. He’s an essential part of the team.

He brings puck possession as well as production. He also brings speed to our lineup. What more do you want from an offensive winger? Brings little else is a dumb comment.

Ok he brings those other things too.

My point stands that he doesn't bring enough to the table to be a 20 plus minute top line winger on a stanley cup contending team which renders the argument that he is underutilized incorrect.

He's being perfectly utilized at 16-18 minutes per night on the second line and if he had to be/do more than that the weaker areas of his game would be exposed.

 

[CelticDruid]

Still astounding people have the balls to complain about Nylander when this team is evidently worse without him.

Preconceived notions are a bitch.

After a while the noise will drown itself out.

Nylander is an elite player, glad that he is on our team.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Nylander Last 2yrs: 0.85ppg, #4 of Leafs Forwards


Teams with 4 better PPG forwards (2):

PIT: 1.Malkin 1.17, 2.Crosby 1.16, 3.Guentzel 1.07, 4.Rust .92
WPG: 1.Scheifele 1.09, 2.Connor 1.00, 3.Wheeler .88, 4.Ehlers .88

Teams with 3 (5):

TOR: 1.Matthews 1.22, 2.Marner 1.18, 3.Tavares .94, 4.Nylander .85
COL: 1.MacKinnon 1.37, 2.Rantanen 1.09, 3.Landeskog .91 ---- (4.Burakovsky .75)
TBL: 1.Kucherov 1.25, 2.Stamkos 1.05, 3.Point.91 ---- (4.Palat .69)
BOS: 1.Marchand 1.27, 2.Pastrnak 1.26, 3.Bergeron .92 ---- (4.Krejci .71)
NYR: 1.Panarin 1.41, 2.Zibanejad 1.11, 3.Strome .88 --- (4.Buchnevich .75)

Teams with 2 (8):

EDM: 1.McDavid 1.60, 2.Draisaitl 1.50 --- (3.N-Hopkins .85)
CAR: 1.Aho .96, 2.Teravainen .89 --- (3.Svechnikov .82)
FLA: 1.Huberdeau 1.09, 2.Barkov 1.02 --- (3.Hornqvist .67)
CHI: 1.Kane 1.21, 2.Toews .86 --- (3.Debrincat .79)
VGK: 1.Stone 1.05, 2.Pacioretty .97 --- (3.Marchessault .73)
WSH: 1.Ovechkin .98, 2.Backstrom .94 --- (3.Kuznestsov .77)
VAN: 1.Miller .97, 2.Petterson .93 -- (3.Boeser .84)
STL: 1.Perron .89, 2.O'Reilly .87 --- (3.Schenn .75)

Teams with 1 (3):

BUF: 1.Eichel 1.08 --- (2.Reinhart .70)
LAK: 1.Kopitar .94 --- (2.Iafallo .62)
PHI: 1.Couturier .88 --- (2.Konecny .85)

Teams with 0 (13):

NYI: (1.Barzal .85)
MIN: (1.Kaprizov .84)
DAL: (1.Robertson .84)
CGY: (1.Lindholm .81)
MTL: (1.Tatar .81)
NSH: (1.Forsberg .79)
CBJ: (1.Laine .78)
SJS: (1.Kane .75)
DET: (1.Vrana .74)
ARZ: (1.Keller .65)
OTT: (1.Tkachuk .63)
ANA: (1.Rakell .62)
NJD: (1.Hischier .59)

Nylander also plays fewer minutes than most, if not all of these players.

I have been wondering for a while now why Keefe just doesn't roll his top 2 lines for equal amounts, especially when Tavares is rolling and the bottom 6 hadn't been great.

Get JT and Willy to 20 minutes for a few games.

 

[Jojalu]

Showboats. They have been around forever but it’s interesting to know your perspective here. Really interesting. So who or what is socially engineering them to be like that in a larger number, well a much larger number than before... i wonder. I don’t like showboats much in sports actually.
Certain times i do but don’t go overboard i guess. We used to hate cherry-picking players that only wanted to score. There was lots of them. I wasn’t much a hockey player but i was out there to pick off the cherry pickers. They weren’t even liked on their own teams ha.

It’s been around a long time anyways. I’m not sure i like putting tags on younger people. I just don’t like it and think there is a system issue going on. Maybe? I don’t know but i have faith in yutes

A lot has to do with the cost associated with playing at an elite level now.

I will use basball as an example. To play on a travel team as a teen, the cost is now anywhere from 9-15k.

With that kind of money,, people want results for their child and could care less if the team has any success. With social media, they want to see their child promoted, and if you follow amatuer sports, 90% of all tweets etc,, are about exit velo, pitching velo, or 60 time.

It's never about how the team or the individual performed in game action.

Now a lot of coaches who get paid instead of the volunteer coaches of old, have pressure to get kids to the next level, whether it be junior college, a 4 year college, or drafted. The best system is judged by who sends the most kids to the next level, not who is the best team

 

[Menzinger]

Nylander playing 17 minutes a night as a depth winger is a very nice luxury to have.

Nylander playing 20 plus hard minutes on the top line playing against the oppositions best players means your team is probably lousy and going nowhere. He's a depth point producing winger who brings little else.

Again, he's 40th in the entire NHL in points the last two seasons. You must have a pretty strange definition of "depth" in this instance.

Not to mention his defensive numbers this season have been excellent which contradicts your second point. When he and his line are out the Leafs are more likely to keep the puck out of the net than let it score - it doesn't mean he should get priority over Marner (he shouldn't) - but that's a different issue from "he brings nothing else"

 

[Menzinger]

Non-elite defensive matchups.

That's fair, but at the same time many of the top scoring wingers in the league get pretty easy usage in order to maximize their offensive skills. I'm not sure why this gets thrown at a negative for Nylander when it isn't particularly unique to guys in his situation

 

[bossram]

Still astounding people have the balls to complain about Nylander when this team is evidently worse without him.

Preconceived notions are a bitch.

People are dumb, xenophobic, and have no ability to think critically other than listening to whatever hacks say during the broadcast intermissions.

He produces at a clear first-line rate. He's the most important transition player on the Leafs - even when teams set up the trap he's consistently able to gain controlled zone entries. He led the league in goals from the low-slot/net-front area last year. His passing creates the most high-danger shot assists of anyone on the Leafs. He's a key piece, and his price point is actually a discount for what he provides

If Nylander's name is Billy Smith from Red Deer, people would hold him in the same regard as Marner.

 

[Jojalu]

Again, he's 40th in the entire NHL in points the last two seasons. You must have a pretty strange definition of "depth" in this instance.

Not to mention his defensive numbers this season have been excellent which contradicts your second point. When he and his line are out the Leafs are more likely to keep the puck out of the net than let it score - it doesn't mean he should get priority over Marner (he shouldn't) - but that's a different issue from "he brings nothing else"

To put numbers to your point. Matthews and Marner have been on the ice for 37 even strength goals against this year.

Nylander and Tavares have been on for 15.

Matthews and Marner play more, and usually are matched up against opposing teams number 1 line, so it's not surprising they would be higher, but only on the ice for 15 goals against more than halfway through a regular season is excellent

 

[stickty111]

OK

No need to be sarcastic. The eye test agrees