Will Ryan Graves be viewed as a core player by the end of next season?

[Foppa2118]

Z may be the one delivering the most highlight-reel worthy smashes, but there's a decent amount of physical snarl on our blueline. EJ and Cole are both nasty SOBs in the corners when they need to be. There may be a bit of a lack of grit in our top 4, but let's be honest, Z isn't the answer to that problem because he isn't a top 4 defenseman.

Graves and Makar will both step up when they see an opportunity, but it isn't a central component of what makes them valuable. Girard just plain isn't suited to physical play, but fortunately his combination of brains and mobility is more than enough to compensate for any shortcomings there.

I expect Byram will bring a physical element to the top 4 once he arrives there, but until then, yeah, we'll be relying on things other than brute strength to carry the D corps. And honestly, if you have guys as smart and crafty as Girard and Makar on the ice for most of the game, that's probably not going to hurt us as much as traditionalists would think.

I would agree with that.

Zadorov throws by far the most "hits" in a traditional sense. Cole and Graves do a little as well just not as often. EJ and Cole play a mild version of Adam Foote's "nasty" game in terms of being constantly physical and hard to play against by wearing on guys in the corners and in front of the net, but that's not quite the same as hitting.

All of that said though, I think the Avs have enough grit and physicality on the blue line where if they were to lose Z, I think they would be ok in that department. Even though Z can have a big impact on games when he hits. Bednar seems to have coached the hitting out of Z this year too.

We have to remember too that both Makar and Byram aren't traditional soft OFD's. They've got some snarl to their game and Makar is quite good at throwing big well timed hits as well.

 

[Balthazar]

Makar is quite good at throwing big well timed hits as well.

I think he's going to get nastier with time.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think he's going to get nastier with time.

Definitely. He was already pretty good at it in college. He hasn't done it as much in the NHL yet because he's probably still trying to get used to playing against men.

I actually hope he doesn't dial it up too much though. I'd like him to keep it to the occasional big hit every month or so. Otherwise I'd be a bit worried that he'll start to piss teams off and they'll start to take more runs at him with the intention of hurting him for payback.

All it takes is for the skate to be planted weird on the ice for one hit while against the boards or something to ruin a knee.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

What they really should do is stick G and Makar together, until Cale starts figuring out the timing and positioning a little better at the NHL level(It'll come in time) and not break them up for a very long time. G is strong enough defensively to carry that pairing on that side of the ice, while the two of them are absolutely magic together through the neutral zone transition and into the offensive zone.


They have the potential together to be an utterly dominant pairing. Skillsets that complement each other incredibly well, both are high end talents, and Cale looks to be a Norris level talent.


It's too bad Byram or Graves weren't right shots because that would have the potential to make for a really strong 2nd pair as well, one that is more defensive oriented but with some offensive zone flair themselves.

This. And not just offensive zone starts either. All the time. You’re talking about 2 elite transition defenseman. Let them start anywhere since they’ll end up in the offensive zone anyway.

 

[Foppa2118]

This. And not just offensive zone starts either. All the time. You’re talking about 2 elite transition defenseman. Let them start anywhere since they’ll end up in the offensive zone anyway.

The problem with that though in terms of Girard-Makar full time, is they will still end up in the D zone having to defend. In some games the reward will outweigh the risk, but in other games it won't. So if they ever go full time with them together, they'll have to spend a lot of time getting the right matchups for them.

Neither Girard or Makar have a complete defensive game. Neither guy defends in front of the net or in the corners, unless their partner gets caught out of position. This is Graves and EJ's job. G and Makar just aren't good at it. They struggle with body positioning and strength, and G struggles with his lack of reach.

I expect Makar to get better at defending the front of the net and the corners, but I'm not sure how much G can improve. Despite being very smart defensively, he's just limited in how much he can do because of his size/reach disadvantage.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

This. And not just offensive zone starts either. All the time. You’re talking about 2 elite transition defenseman. Let them start anywhere since they’ll end up in the offensive zone anyway.

Yep. And G will make up for Makar's Defensive shortcomings in the short term. It makes sense really. One is our best Defender(While being solid offensively and elite in transition as well) while the other is our best Offensive guy by a massive margin, elite offensively, and the Defensive game will get better.


We saw in the playoffs last year how good they can be and how dominant a possession duo they can make. Now they're a year older and especially with G, a year matured and more consistent.

 

[Foppa2118]

One of the reasons we don't see more of Girard and Makar paired together is because it depletes the other pairings of much puck moving ability...

Girard --- Makar
Graves -- Johnson
Zadorov -- Cole

Contrast that with pairs below where we have two pairs with a capable puck-mover.

Graves -- Makar
Girard -- Johnson
Zadorov -- Cole

With the addition of Byram we could then afford to play two puckmovers together (whether Byram/Makar or Girard/Makar) and still have 2 pairs with a good puckmover.

Totally agree. This has been my main argument against pairing them together full time since Makar stepped in the NHL. Though I think that specific concern will go away soon.

Girard-Makar are both very cerebral defenseman so they don't usually run into the same problems Girard-Barrie would where both guys would play aggressively at the same time, and give up odd man rushes. But the problem right now is it depletes the other pairings of a good puck mover like you mention.

Cole and Zadorov have big problems with puck movement/mobility when paired together, and Graves and EJ really need someone good at it to support them as well.

This will start to change though once Timmins and especially Byram makes the team. They'll be able to get away with pairing G-Makar together a lot more, and I expect they will.

I feel like I'm one of the few people that really like the idea of a Byram-Timmins pairing too. I never hear anyone else mention it but I think that could be an outstanding two way shut down pairing.

It's kind of the opposite of a Girard-EJ pairing where they help with each others weaknesses, because neither Byram or Timmins have a lot of holes in their game. It has the potential to just be solid all around, against all types of opponents, in all three zones.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Good discussion here..

Two thoughts.

1. The first on pairing G and Makar together.

I don’t want to do it until Byram establishes himself as a top-4 defenceman. One of the reasons the team had so much success this year is because they had two elite puck movers playing on separate pairings.

I also think Makar’s D-zone struggles are getting overblown at this point. He doesn’t need to be paired with Girard to cover him in the D zone. He’s not a sieve in his own zone and he was proving that in the second half of the season. Makar is more than capable of handling his own pairing.

2. Physicality of the roster

I think there’s enough physicality on this team. I believe it was @The Abusement Park
that mentioned, Kadri and Landeskog increase their physical play come playoff time. Nuke, Graves, EJ, Calvert, Cole, and Makar/MacKinnon from time-to-time bring a physical element.

When talking about playoff hockey, I think competitiveness matters even more than physicality and I think that’s where the Avs really shine, particularly their star players. It’s one of the reasons they rarely had games this season where they looked like they weren’t working hard.

 

[The Abusement Park]

This. And not just offensive zone starts either. All the time. You’re talking about 2 elite transition defenseman. Let them start anywhere since they’ll end up in the offensive zone anyway.

Short term the only issue I have is that it completely makes the other pairings have no true puck mover. EJ can’t skate anymore, Graves is pretty inconsistent in that regard and I don’t think Timmins or Byram should be leaned on to carry the puck moving burden for their paring yet.

 

[Foppa2118]

I also think Makar’s D-zone struggles are getting a overblown at this point. He doesn’t need to be paired with Girard to cover him in the D zone. He’s not a sieve in his own zone and he was proving that in the second half of the season.

Makar's defensive instincts are pretty good, his stick is pretty good and getting better game by game in it's effectiveness, his man on man coverage right now is ok, and his defense below the goal line while a bit of an issue, is still better than Barrie for example and getting better game but game.

I expect Cale to get better in all areas defensively though, and maybe even become quite good, but he looked like a fish out of water in certain situations this year.

Defending the front of the net is one of them. He genuinely looked like he didn't know what he should do to defend a big man standing in front of his goalie. Should he try to muscle them out of the way? Should he tie up their stick? Should he try to front the shot instead? He would usually end up doing none of those things and giving them too much space like he wasn't even there. He lost a few strength battles pretty easily too when trying to tie up sticks during rebounds. I expect the strength issue to go away soon though.

Girard struggles in the same areas (front of net and below goal line) but his main reasons are his size/strength disadvantage, and unfortunately that's just not going to change. If the forward in front of the net makes any effort to get halfway decent body position to box out Girard, he's basically helpless because his reach isn't long enough to knock the puck off someones stick in that situation, and if he's battling for a rebound he's going to lose the strength battle almost always, and not be able to tie up the man's stick.

That's why they've clearly told Graves/EJ to take on this responsibility when paired with Makar/Girard. I've even seen Landy make eye contact with Girard and swap spots so Landy could defend the front of the net instead.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Eh..? Girard telegraphs his passes and has an obvious lack of awareness in the offensive zone. Girard does what he does because of his physical talents outside of his shot, and for whatever reason hes good defensively while getting tunnel vision in the O zone.

Also no defender is putting up 50+ points without power play time. So unless Byram replaces Makar there hes probably not going to explode offensively. It is pretty much that simple IMO.

I'd actually be surprised if Byram ends up being as bad as Girard is at times offensively in terms of creativity.

I tend to agree on Byram’s offensive ceiling. I’d have it a little bit higher than Girard’s.

It’s going to depend on how much opportunity he gets early on, but he has a better shot and a much more aggressive offensive approach.

Girard, very much plays within the structure of his game. That’s pretty much always a positive and it’s what makes him such a good player. The one drawback is sometimes he’s just content making the solid play and not looking for more, or having the creativity to find more.

I could be wrong, but I think Byram has a bit more of that element to his game.

What a group of defence he’ll be able to learn from too. Two rising stars in Makar/Girard and two veteran professionals in EJ and Cole.

 

[McMetal]

I think he's going to get nastier with time.

The key is that Makar knows when he's got the advantage on the ice. If he tried to hit like Z does, a lot of times he would just bounce off because he's not 230 pounds of brick shithouse. He picks his spots carefully to hit not only when he can win the physical battle, but when it will be effective in ending the play. Watching those clips, the first two were on guys who were off balance a bit, and the third was a bit of a blindside on a guy who either wasn't paying attention or didn't see him as a threat.

Makar's D game is sneaky good already. It's easy to look as his height and offensive numbers and put him into the box of "offensive defenseman", but he actually is effective defending, and will only get better from here.

 

[PAZ]

Core D men will be Makar, G, and Byram. 4 out of the top 6 defencemen can't each be considered core players. Even having 3 seems unorthodox but we're lucky aren't we.

Nashville has Josi, Ekholm, Ellis, and Subban all as core players at one point - Subban's play simply dropped off a cliff.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Nashville has Josi, Ekholm, Ellis, and Subban all as core players at one point - Subban's play simply dropped off a cliff.

And Weber/Suter before that.


And it should have been Jones as well but...


Avs have the potential to be set up just like the Preds defense was 3 years ago where nobody else in the league came close. The difference for us is we have a MacKinnon Center that the Preds just never could get.

 

[CobraAcesS]

The key is that Makar knows when he's got the advantage on the ice. If he tried to hit like Z does, a lot of times he would just bounce off because he's not 230 pounds of brick shithouse. He picks his spots carefully to hit not only when he can win the physical battle, but when it will be effective in ending the play. Watching those clips, the first two were on guys who were off balance a bit, and the third was a bit of a blindside on a guy who either wasn't paying attention or didn't see him as a threat.

Makar's D game is sneaky good already. It's easy to look as his height and offensive numbers and put him into the box of "offensive defenseman", but he actually is effective defending, and will only get better from here.

Goly gee, what a revelation this will be for some people, still..

"Telegraphs his passes"

Not really sure why you came in with such a strong argumentative tone... Girard doesn't telegraph his passes at all.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say G is underrated. Even fans of the team have a brutally warped viewpoint on him.

LMAO, it is a lot like you to use one clip and make a stand. The dude would have made it a hell of a lot harder for Makar to instantly take over the power play had Girard not telegraphed his passes.

I guess some people can't take it when you have a critique of a player. Yet you are one of the biggest producers of hot takes around here lol.

Girard's shot is not the only reason he hasn't broken out offensively.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Goly gee, what a revelation this will be for some people, still..





LMAO, it is a lot like you to use one clip and make a stand. The dude would have made it a hell of a lot harder for Makar to instantly take over the power play had Girard not telegraphed his passes.

I guess some people can't take it when you have a critique of a player. Yet you are one of the biggest producers of hot takes around here lol.

Girard's shot is not the only reason he hasn't broken out offensively.

It would be perfectly fine if your critique was valid. It's just not valid at all.


Literally everyone in this thread will tell you you're wrong. Girard is a great passer. He wouldnt have 30 assists and on pace for 40 points as a Dman if he wasn't a good passer since we have established he has an awful shot.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Graves is a core player right now. Up there with league leaders in certain stats. Steal of the decade.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

And Weber/Suter before that.


And it should have been Jones as well but...


Avs have the potential to be set up just like the Preds defense was 3 years ago where nobody else in the league came close. The difference for us is we have a MacKinnon Center that the Preds just never could get.

This is the dream certainly.

I just hope that Byram and Timmins can establish themselves quickly so we can have that kind of defence for several of MacKinnon and Rantanen’s prime years.

 

[Ararana]

This might be a fun thread when Graves regresses to the mean next season.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

This might be a fun thread when Graves regresses to the mean next season.

Pretty much everyone voted no though lol

 

[henchman21]

Graves' mean is superstardom.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Graves' mean is superstardom.

 

[Richard88]

This might be a fun thread when Graves regresses to the mean next season.

You mean that he regresses to his average performance last season, as a steady 1st pairing Dman?

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Pretty much everyone voted no though lol

I see the thinly veiled jab lobbed over at my premonition.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I see the thinly veiled jab lobbed over at my premonition.

Never, wolf.

I appreciate your optimism.

Hey, I hope you’re right. If Graves becomes a really good 22+ minute all around top-4 D, all of us would be thrilled about that.