Will hockey's passion ever make a comeback like in the past?

[streitz]

That's silly. What did Messier do that was so terrible, compared to any other 'tough' players of his era who had 20-year careers?

I wouldn't go far as say 'belongs in jail'. There were worse players then Messier in the league. I would say for example 2 of his teammates. Linseman and McSorley were both dirtier then Messier(just for example).
That being said I say him lumberjack Gradin over the head, that's pretty terrible lol.


Either way he's an Oiler from the dynasty, probably the 2nd most important player on that dynasty so you will defend him no matter what.

 

[The Panther]

I wouldn't go far as say 'belongs in jail'. There were worse players then Messier in the league.
That being said I say him lumberjack Gradin over the head, that's pretty terrible lol.

You're absolutely right -- that was terrible!! (forgot about that one)
That said, I can't think of any other incidents where Messier used his stick on anyone.

Either way he's an Oiler from the dynasty, probably the 2nd most important player on that dynasty so you will defend him no matter what.

I freely admit the Dynasty Oilers are my favorite historical team and Messier one of my favorite players. But it doesn't mean I "defend" them against others. I don't rank Coffey as high as some do, as I'm all too aware of his risky play and shortcomings. I thought Kevin Lowe was good c.1981 to 1987, and quite useless thereafter. There are plenty of off-ice things about Gretzky that I dislike. Dave Hunter I never really liked. Pocklington was the biggest sleaze in the League, etc.

 

[streitz]

There are plenty of off-ice things about Gretzky that I dislike.

That surprises me honestly.

I don't think I've ever met an Oil fan who didn't dislike Pocklington though. Also I'd change Lowe's 'useless' date to 1981, easily the worst player I've seen in my lifetime to win so many cups'I got 6 rings' lol.

I preferred Dale Hunter myself.

 

[Big Phil]

I thought Kevin Lowe was good c.1981 to 1987, and quite useless thereafter. There are plenty of off-ice things about Gretzky that I dislike. Dave Hunter I never really liked. Pocklington was the biggest sleaze in the League, etc.

Ironically, Lowe finished 5th (how?) in Norris voting in 1988 and 8th in 1989. I look at the lists and there was some pretty high end guys Lowe was ahead of, especially in 1989. Strange. Maybe it was Coffey leaving and Lowe getting a bit more responsibility? I still can't see it. I see him as a solid defenseman who won a lot of Cups but I always cringe when anyone brings up the HHOF with him.

What bothered you off the ice about Gretzky in particular?

 

[Big Phil]

In some of the recent comments, it is true we are a more sanitized society. You can roll your eyes all you want with this comment but there is no doubt masculinity and manliness has been under attack and there is a new breed of "fatherhood" that society wants the modern man to embrace. Pretty much every single person alive today is significantly less "manly" than their grandfather would have been for a variety of reasons. You can say this is a good thing, I don't think it is, because my grandfather was a very manly and yet gentle man. But whatever you think of it, it has crept its way into sports, which is not a good thing because there are certain sports that rely on you needing to be tough, even in 2019, and people seem to wince at this nowadays.

Players are still tough today. It isn't fun playing hockey and getting hit at these high speeds and defensive tackles in the NFL are probably as fast as they have ever been, so I am not as much calling the players wimps as I am in the culture we live in today. Case in point. 50 years ago this week Pat Quinn rocked Bobby Orr in that classic hit. Yeah, it was an elbow but in 1969 most guys didn't have helmets so the bigger problem was lower hits (think Orr's knees). That being said a big hockey fan relative of mine and I were talking about it this week and he literally says he recoils at the thought of these old hits, even though Orr himself admits he should have had his head up. I mean, "recoil"? My relative is a classic 2019 version of a modern man, so that doesn't help, but I mean, is this what we have come to? We can't even enjoy some moments from hockey's past anymore and marvel at them? I realize this is true because even on these boards there are people who would have been happy to see Scott Stevens or Mark Messier arrested.

Hockey was different then. Someone touched on this a while back, but it was like the playground in the 1980s. You got in a fight and that was it. You survived. Kids back then found ways to fight their own battles. Maybe you asked your older brother to beat the guy up who was picking on you, but both sides usually didn't want the teachers involved. Hockey was like that probably up until 2004. There were always suspensions, and for good reasons, but the players tended to police themselves and everyone was fine with that. Today? It's like no one can think anymore unless they are told how to by TSN analysts who dissect everything.

 

[The Panther]

Ironically, Lowe finished 5th (how?) in Norris voting in 1988 and 8th in 1989. I look at the lists and there was some pretty high end guys Lowe was ahead of, especially in 1989. Strange. Maybe it was Coffey leaving and Lowe getting a bit more responsibility? I still can't see it.

I can't see it, either. The game became too fast for him after about 1985, though he was still quite good through 1986-87.

What bothered you off the ice about Gretzky in particular?

Nothing much while he was with Edmonton, though he was overly deferential at times to Pocklington, but back then he thought Pocklington was looking out for him! But even back in the day, Gretzky had an unfortunate tendency towards the "rich, white man" protector who would be his beneficiary: first it was Skalbania, then Pocklington, and then McNall. Crooks, all of them!

Once Gretzky got past the McNall thing and realized he should probably just look out for himself, he entered that unfortunate stage of late-and post-superstardom in sports known as "cronyism", and he's still sort of stuck there today.

His support of Stephen Harper was bizarre, too.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

There is no debate that emotion and passion are declining rapidly as are rivalries.

It isn't only due to less fighting either or players being afraid to hit.

Social media and the new generation of young players who all want to be friends has a big part of it.

Most players can get by on skill and collecting paychecks in this new era. The playoff format was a massive bust at creating artificial rivalries as well.

 

[Big Phil]

There is no debate that emotion and passion are declining rapidly as are rivalries.

It isn't only due to less fighting either or players being afraid to hit.

Social media and the new generation of young players who all want to be friends has a big part of it.

Most players can get by on skill and collecting paychecks in this new era. The playoff format was a massive bust at creating artificial rivalries as well.

I agree, but I actually thought the playoff format that everyone complains about today is actually better for rivalries. It is similar to the old 1980s/early 1990s versions where you knew there was probably going to be a Bos/Mtl or Edm/Cal series. I think if anything that sort of thing fosters rivalries more naturally. I for one as a Leaf fan love the idea of playing Boston again first round.

Nothing much while he was with Edmonton, though he was overly deferential at times to Pocklington, but back then he thought Pocklington was looking out for him! But even back in the day, Gretzky had an unfortunate tendency towards the "rich, white man" protector who would be his beneficiary: first it was Skalbania, then Pocklington, and then McNall. Crooks, all of them!

Once Gretzky got past the McNall thing and realized he should probably just look out for himself, he entered that unfortunate stage of late-and post-superstardom in sports known as "cronyism", and he's still sort of stuck there today.

His support of Stephen Harper was bizarre, too.

I think he has supported pretty much every Prime Minister. He is no Lebron James when it comes to politics who has to let the whole world know what he thinks, Gretzky is a lot more like, say, Michael Jordan that way. I remember him working with Chretien and Mulroney at different times in his career with certain programs regarding hockey, I don't know if he voted for them or not, or Harper, but he has always been the type to say kind words to everyone. I don't know if he'd be out of place as a Canadian voting for Harper though, especially in the sports world, but either way I don't think he has tipped his hand one way or another. Patrick Brown, who was poised to be the Premier of Ontario before they booted him out was his friend so I am guessing his support was based on that. That's probably the best thing about Gretzky, he usually stays out of the muddy things.

As for the owners he worked for, I remember doing a thread a while back and it was just asking innocently why people thought Gretzky's owners always ended up in jail. Skalbania, Puck, McNall. If I remember the thread was locked. I wasn't implicating him by any means, far from it, I was just trying to get opinions. My thought is that with a name like he has there are so few guys that he ISN'T associated with in the game. If anything a lot of rich men have wanted to get their hands on him and not come out clean at the end of the day. I don't know, to me Gretzky is like Walt Disney. No one can possibly live up to the image we have portrayed them to be as people, but I have always thought they both put their pants on one leg at a time and were generally good men.

 

[Big Phil]

I thought the 2019 playoffs have been pretty good when it comes to the intensity side of things. Better than I have seen in recent years at least. The playoffs are really where it is at, but I am wondering if the NHL should take note here and see how back-to-back-to-back etc. games effect teams. Maybe schedule more back to back games with division rivals to create a bit more animosity. That was normal back in the day. Toronto and Detroit often played against each other in back to back nights in their own building.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

I thought the 2019 playoffs have been pretty good when it comes to the intensity side of things. Better than I have seen in recent years at least. The playoffs are really where it is at, but I am wondering if the NHL should take note here and see how back-to-back-to-back etc. games effect teams. Maybe schedule more back to back games with division rivals to create a bit more animosity. That was normal back in the day. Toronto and Detroit often played against each other in back to back nights in their own building.

Funny you should mention that, I was thinking I wanted to come here and mention that. This years regular season was a snooze, but the playoffs this year have been great. Lots of intensity and the players take reasonable risks on the ice to create goals. What pisses me off more than the lack of fighting these days is how much risk is coached out of the game in terms of how players set up plays.

 

[The Panther]

I don't know, to me Gretzky is like Walt Disney. No one can possibly live up to the image we have portrayed them to be as people, but I have always thought they both put their pants on one leg at a time and were generally good men.

That comparison doesn't favor Gretzky!

(Walt Disney, to me, was a sleaze-bag who enthusiastically supported McCarthy-ism, and fired all of his workers -- most of whom were underpaid and were supporting wives and children -- because they attempted to form a union. He was more like Pocklington!)

 

[Big Phil]

That comparison doesn't favor Gretzky!

(Walt Disney, to me, was a sleaze-bag who enthusiastically supported McCarthy-ism, and fired all of his workers -- most of whom were underpaid and were supporting wives and children -- because they attempted to form a union. He was more like Pocklington!)

I think the majority of people that worked for Walt Disney have spoken highly of him, but yes, there are plenty of stories that say he was a hard guy to work for as he was such a perfectionist, to have that sort of success that he had you have to be someone who drives your employees. His brother Roy handled most of the business side of things, that wasn't Walt's forte, but what I was saying is that, say, the image of Walt Disney at a place like Disneyland is comparable to the image of Gretzky in the hockey world. No one can possibly live up to that sugary image as they both put their pants on one leg at a time like everyone else and had and have their faults.

 

[Sentinel]

It's mostly a money thing. Up to the late 80s/early 90s, most average to lower-end NHLers made the same money as a doctor or lawyer -- people you knew, went to college with, etc. And that seemed reasonable in that they were low-educated and in a short-term career, unlikely to succeed.

Within eight or ten years, Bobby Holik was making 9 million dollars a year (more than Crosby) as a past-prime second liner. Once that sort of thing starts happening, pro-hockey is less about organically-developed passion and more of a career orientated, professional investment. And thus, careerist professionals are simply not going to risk suspensions, head injuries, and the like when their family's lifetime investment portfolio is at stake.

There's a good parallel here with popular music. Today's NHL is like a corporate-calculated, airbrushed Ariana Grande single/video, and it used to be like Sam Cooke, John Lennon, or Sly & the Family Stone.

While I agree with your general sentiment, I don't know 2 out of 3 artists you listed.

 

[Sentinel]

I, for one, am happy NHL is doing away with the violence. As much as I loved the 90s hockey and its greatest rivalry ever in DRW-CA, star forwards were injured all the time. Bure, Kariya, Forsberg, Lindros, Palffy, and countless others had much shorter careers than they should have because of injuries and violence. I'd rather it not come back.

 

[Tarantula]

The playoffs have been much better then the RS, which does seem pretty vanilla most nights. I don't miss the stupid scrums and face washes after each whistle.