Will Datsyuk and Zetterberg ever have their numbers retired?

[odin1981]

That is also why I would love to never see it tarnished by a sub optimal up amongst who is already there.

Also that is why Osgood never should even sniff the rafters.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

It is a very exclusive club, especially since they took down Aurie's number. It is beyond just being a hall of famer. Having your number retired by the Wings really is one of the greatest accomplishments in sports.

Yeah. Sid Abel is one of the greatest players in all of sports history.

Knock it off


You honor the truly great players from great eras.

Different owners through the ages have their own reasons for doing what they do

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah. Sid Abel is one of the greatest players in all of sports history.

Knock it off


You honor the truly great players from great eras.

Different owners through the ages have their own reasons for doing what they do

Was a first team all-star twice and a second team all-star twice. So top 10 player during his era. He also won a Hart Trophy.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

That is also why I would love to never see it tarnished by a sub optimal up amongst who is already there.

Also that is why Osgood never should even sniff the rafters.

Agreed on Ozzie.

I think Fedorov should go up. I'm torn on Shanahan.

Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom and maybe SHanahan is a great addition to the rafters, representing one of the great eras of Red Wings hockey.,

I think Datsyuk and Zetterberg have also done enough in this era to merit the honor.

We;re talking about nearly a quarter century of in which the Wings have been a top team in the NHL

While many will fondly point to the grand era of the Production Line, I thiink the era of
91-92 to 11-12 is one of the greatest stretches in NHL History,.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Was a first team all-star twice and a second team all-star twice. So top 10 player during his era. He also won a Hart Trophy.

Playing in a 6-team league.

If you were a good player on a good team in a 6-team league, you were an all-star.

IE- basically, if you were a top line player on your team, you had a 1/6th chance of being a first-team all star -- compared to a 1/30 chance today.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Playing in a 6-team league.

If you were a good player on a good team in a 6-team league, you were an all-star.

IE- basically, if you were a top line player on your team, you had a 1/6th chance of being a first-team all star -- compared to a 1/30 chance today.

And what does the Hart mean??????

Abel was a special player whether or not you want to admit that, he belongs with the other greats up there.

 

[odin1981]

Agreed on Ozzie.

I think Fedorov should go up. I'm torn on Shanahan.

Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom and maybe SHanahan is a great addition to the rafters, representing one of the great eras of Red Wings hockey.,

I think Datsyuk and Zetterberg have also done enough in this era to merit the honor.

We;re talking about nearly a quarter century of in which the Wings have been a top team in the NHL

While many will fondly point to the grand era of the Production Line, I thiink the era of
91-92 to 11-12 is one of the greatest stretches in NHL History,.

I would say shanahan shouldn't only because of 50/50 career between teams (us and st louis). I personally agree with feds going up but in theory he hasn't retired yet but also the thing with him he left "questionably" so who knows how/if he will get the honor.

 

[pdd]

That is also why I would love to never see it tarnished by a sub optimal up amongst who is already there.

Also that is why Osgood never should even sniff the rafters.

Agreed on Ozzie.

I think Fedorov should go up. I'm torn on Shanahan.

Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom and maybe SHanahan is a great addition to the rafters, representing one of the great eras of Red Wings hockey.,

I think Datsyuk and Zetterberg have also done enough in this era to merit the honor.

We;re talking about nearly a quarter century of in which the Wings have been a top team in the NHL

You argue that Osgood, who has some of the best career regular season AND career playoff numbers EVER, should not be retired. Then continue on to state that Brendan Shanahan has been "key" (the only Wings playoff team he was more important to during Osgood's tenure was 1997, when Vernon was the playoff goalie). If we're retiring Shanahan's number because of the 1996 trade (which is what the Shanahan love-fest is about) then we might as well retire Larry Murphy's; without the Murphy trade the Wings wouldn't have had the same offensive depth on D due to the loss of Coffey in the Shanahan trade, and would likely have lost again. For the eight-year period of the 95-02 Wings, the importance of players through the era as a whole was as such: Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Osgood. After that you can argue whether six years of Shanahan beats three years of Konstantinov, three years of Vernon, four years of Chelios, seven years of Larionov, seven years of Kozlov, etc.

But to bring up the idea of "Man, the Wings have been a modern-day dynasty with all of this domination! We should retire their key players!" and then ignore a goaltender who played with with Detroit fourteen seasons from 93-94 to 2010-11 and was the primary goaltender during the regular season in nine of those seasons. He won 400+ career games (top ten all-time) and fourth in wins for a single team (317, a mark that would be a record on 27 teams but is not in Detroit due to Sawchuk's 351.) Despite finishing with 34 fewer wins than Sawchuk, he had 58 fewer losses (included OTL) and 86 fewer ties. So assuming he had 59 decisions per season, he'd have to average 11-19-29 over three seasons to match Sawchuk statistically.

He would need a 3-5 playoff year to match Patrick Roy's Montreal numbers. He'd also need to lose nine shutouts, because Osgood posted 14 with Detroit while Roy only posted 5 with Montreal.

A 14-10 playoff year with 2 shutouts would match Roy in Colorado. He'd also need to make 995 saves on 1073 shots in 1650 minutes; an average of about 69 minutes per game, with a .927sv%, 2.84GAA, and 39 SA/60. So basically he'd have to be Dwayne Roloson in Edmonton to exactly match Roy's numbers.

Osgood has the 7th-highest amount of playoff wins for a single franchise; Roy has two of the top six so that means he is one of the top six players in that regard.

Only Brodeur and Roy (Col) have more shutouts than Osgood in the playoffs. That's it. In all of the history of the NHL, nobody else has had 14+ career playoff shutouts for one team but those three.

 

[pdd]

People complaining about the exclusivity of the numbers in the rafters bothers me.

LOOK at who is up there.

Look at who ISN'T up there, and should be:

#4 - Red Kelly was the second-best player on the Wings during his SIGNIFICANT time with the team, better than Lindsay, Sawchuk, Abel, or Delvecchio.

#6 - Larry Aurie's number was officially retired and his banner is not up there.

#7 - Norm Ullman was Detroit's best player for a long stretch, ahead of even players whose numbers are in the rafters.

#8 - Syd Howe played 513 of his 698 career games with Detroit, retired a Wing, and retired as the NHL's all-time leading scorer.

#30 - Chris Osgood is a 400-win goaltender who played all but 3 seasons of his career with Detroit, went to the Finals three times and won twice, and was a key player most of his time in Detroit (including a 39-6-5 season where he was named to the second all-star team, received Hart votes, and arguably deserved the Vezina and first-team selection).

#91 - Sergei Fedorov is the third-best Red Wings forward ever.

All of those players have very strong arguments for retirements; Ullman was the only player not to win a Cup with Detroit. And his number's already retired for Ted Lindsay; it would just be a matter of hanging a banner to honor the player. And Lindsay actually wore #7 for three fewer seasons than Ullman did, and Ullman wore #7 with Lindsay on the team wearing #15 for one season.

It's almost as if Ullman is the "primary" #7 in Red Wings history.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Playing in a 6-team league.

If you were a good player on a good team in a 6-team league, you were an all-star.

IE- basically, if you were a top line player on your team, you had a 1/6th chance of being a first-team all star -- compared to a 1/30 chance today.

The year Abel won the Hart, the Art Ross winner had 68 points.

Just saying. You can only be SO good compared to your competition (unless you're Wayne or Mario).

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Look at who ISN'T up there, and should be:

#4 - Red Kelly was the second-best player on the Wings during his SIGNIFICANT time with the team, better than Lindsay, Sawchuk, Abel, or Delvecchio.

#6 - Larry Aurie's number was officially retired and his banner is not up there.

#7 - Norm Ullman was Detroit's best player for a long stretch, ahead of even players whose numbers are in the rafters.

#8 - Syd Howe played 513 of his 698 career games with Detroit, retired a Wing, and retired as the NHL's all-time leading scorer.

#30 - Chris Osgood is a 400-win goaltender who played all but 3 seasons of his career with Detroit, went to the Finals three times and won twice, and was a key player most of his time in Detroit (including a 39-6-5 season where he was named to the second all-star team, received Hart votes, and arguably deserved the Vezina and first-team selection).

#91 - Sergei Fedorov is the third-best Red Wings forward ever.

All of those players have very strong arguments for retirements; Ullman was the only player not to win a Cup with Detroit. And his number's already retired for Ted Lindsay; it would just be a matter of hanging a banner to honor the player. And Lindsay actually wore #7 for three fewer seasons than Ullman did, and Ullman wore #7 with Lindsay on the team wearing #15 for one season.

It's almost as if Ullman is the "primary" #7 in Red Wings history.

Red Kelly could just as easily have his jersey retired by Toronto as he could Detroit.

And I don't necessarily agree with Datsyuk, even if I think he's a first ballot HoF'er and the most amazing player I've ever watched.

 

[BigDucky]

#91 - Sergei Fedorov is the third-best Red Wings forward ever.

I disagree: Yzerman was better than Fedorov.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I disagree: Yzerman was better than Fedorov.

I think he is going Howe and Yzerman. But maybe it was actually Howe and Hudler.

 

[nik jr]

94, 96, 00?

In 1994, Osgood was light years better than Essensa. He started game one and allowed five goals. Osgood played the next game and got a shutout, and allowed two goals the following game. He was pulled in game 5 after a bad start (only to see Essensa give up 4 more goals), but came back in game 6 to allow only a single goal. Had he not made a ROOKIE MISTAKE, AS A ROOKIE, then he only allows two goals in game 7. The Detroit team that had averaged 4.17 goals per game through game 6, never scoring fewer than three, suddenly manages to only score two in game 7. Less than half of their average for the first six games, and barely more than half of the actual series average after seven games. Had the Wings won the final game 3-2, Detroit averages 4 goals exactly.

So placing the blame on Osgood for 1994 is incorrect.

In 1996, Osgood was one of the team's better players. And in the Colorado series, the Avs outscored the Wings 20-16 over six games. Colorado also scored an empty netter in their 4-2 win in game 4, meaning that Detroit scored 16 on Roy, and Colorado scored 19 on Osgood. Game six was a 4-1 Colorado win; going into that game each goaltender had given up 15 goals in 5 games. In all of Colorado's wins, Detroit scored 2 or fewer goals.

The problem was not Osgood, unless you think "not playing as well as Patrick Roy" means "submarining the team's Cup chances".

And in 2000, Osgood gave up 2, 2, 1, 3, and 4 goals in the five games against Colorado. Even with the big game at the end, it's still only 12 goals in 5 games, and 2.4 goals per game (by games, not minutes). Meanwhile, Detroit scored 0, 1, 3, 2, 2. That's only 1.6 goals per game.

Let's compare for a second.

Mike Vernon gave up 2, 3, 4, 5 in four games against New Jersey. In the third game he allowed four in only half a game and was pulled for Osgood, who allowed 1 in slightly more than the time Vernon saw that game. So in 3.5 games, Vernon gave up 14 goals. That's 3.5 goals per game (by game played) or close to four (by minutes). Far worse than anything you have condemned Osgood with.

Now, let's look at Hasek's Cup win on the "best roster ever":

He gave up 15 goals in six games against Vancouver in the first round, including 4 goals in each of the first two games (putting the Wings down 0-2) and the sixth game (the Wings' offense bailed him out).

In 2007, Hasek gave up 14 goals in six games against Anaheim after giving up only nine against San Jose and ten against Calgary. All three teams scored 258 goals in the regular season; why did he turn (in relative terms) into a doormat against Anaheim?

And we all know about 2008; when Osgood had to bail the Wings out after Hasek pulled a Cloutier.



Feds and Kelly definitely deserve it, and I think they should put Aurie up officially as his number was officially retired (applying the HHOF standards to him 40 years later is BS; he was considered the best player in franchise history by the franchise when he retired. They didn't retire another number until Gordie Howe, even though Syd Howe was the all-time points leader and spent a great portion of his career as a Wing.

Osgood also deserves it. He was the second-most important player in one Cup win, most important player in another Finals appearance, and arguably top-three in another Cup win. Sawchuk, and Delvecchio arguably can't even claim that, given Howe, Kelly, Lindsay, and Abel. Zetterberg can't claim it (yet). Neither can Datsyuk (not even close). Yzerman, Lidstrom, Howe, and Lindsay are the only retired players who can claim the same level of importance through Cup wins and Finals runs. Fedorov and Kelly as additional players who are not retired. Between Cup Finals/wins importance and career RS success in Detroit, Osgood is extremely deserving of having his number retired when compared to anyone else who has been a Wing; even other retired players.

That's it.

So hang #4, #6, #30, and #91. Maybe in five to ten years we'll see one or both of #13 and #40.

Knowing Holland, we'll probably see #27 and #93 go up.

you don't remember '96 WCF? most likely would have won the cup if osgood had played well.

The year Abel won the Hart, the Art Ross winner had 68 points.

in 60 games, which is basically the same as 93p in 82 games.

this season is a short season, too.

 

[BinCookin]

Look at who ISN'T up there, and should be:

#4 - Red Kelly was the second-best player on the Wings during his SIGNIFICANT time with the team, better than Lindsay, Sawchuk, Abel, or Delvecchio.

#6 - Larry Aurie's number was officially retired and his banner is not up there.

#7 - Norm Ullman was Detroit's best player for a long stretch, ahead of even players whose numbers are in the rafters.

#8 - Syd Howe played 513 of his 698 career games with Detroit, retired a Wing, and retired as the NHL's all-time leading scorer.

#30 - Chris Osgood is a 400-win goaltender who played all but 3 seasons of his career with Detroit, went to the Finals three times and won twice, and was a key player most of his time in Detroit (including a 39-6-5 season where he was named to the second all-star team, received Hart votes, and arguably deserved the Vezina and first-team selection).

#91 - Sergei Fedorov is the third-best Red Wings forward ever.

All of those players have very strong arguments for retirements; Ullman was the only player not to win a Cup with Detroit. And his number's already retired for Ted Lindsay; it would just be a matter of hanging a banner to honor the player. And Lindsay actually wore #7 for three fewer seasons than Ullman did, and Ullman wore #7 with Lindsay on the team wearing #15 for one season.

It's almost as if Ullman is the "primary" #7 in Red Wings history.

129 Red Kelly 1,316 GP 281G 542A 823Pts - 16th best D-man of all time (offensively)

38 Norm Ullman 1,410 GP 490G 739A 1,229Pts - 38th highest scoring forward ever.

33 Alex Delvecchio 1,549 GP 456G 825A 1,281Pts - 33rd highest scoring forward ever.

(Really not much (statistical) difference here)

47 Sergei Fedorov 1,248 GP 483 G 696 A 1,179Pts - 47 highest scoring forward ever.



119 Ted Lindsay 1,068 GP 379 G 472 A 851pts - 119th highest scoring forward ever.

456 Sid Abel 612 GP 189 G 283A 472pts - 456th all time.

I dont know if i have a point... Just here are some facts

 

[nik jr]

129 Red Kelly 1,316 GP 281G 542A 823Pts - 16th best D-man of all time (offensively)

38 Norm Ullman 1,410 GP 490G 739A 1,229Pts - 38th highest scoring forward ever.

33 Alex Delvecchio 1,549 GP 456G 825A 1,281Pts - 33rd highest scoring forward ever.

(Really not much (statistical) difference here)

47 Sergei Fedorov 1,248 GP 483 G 696 A 1,179Pts - 47 highest scoring forward ever.


119 Ted Lindsay 1,068 GP 379 G 472 A 851pts - 119th highest scoring forward ever.

456 Sid Abel 612 GP 189 G 283A 472pts - 456th all time.

I dont know if i have a point... Just here are some facts

you have to look at changes in the level of scoring and number of games per season. it's better to be among the best in a lower scoring era than an average offensive player in a high scoring era.

red kelly also spent a lot of time as a F, both LW and C.


kelly was a unanimous post-season all star 3 times, and then won the 1st norris. so he almost certainly would have won 4 norris if the award had existed. kelly was probably the best offensive d-man of his era, but was also a good defensive player.

in '54, kelly was voted player of the year by several organizations, and should have won the hart. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=29054543&postcount=10

here's a short description of kelly from sports illustrated in 1955:

On the attack, the Red Wings in general play a slam-bang, puck-hounding game, relying on manpower rather than on finesse to wear down their opponents. Their offensive sorties frequently have the advantage of a "fourth forward," the great Red Kelly, perennial All-Star defenseman and a natural play-builder, shown at right (No. 4) as he leads a rush toward the Rangers' goal. Three of the last four seasons, Kelly has ranked among the top ten scorers, the only defenseman to climb into that exalted circle.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1069407/




norm ullman was fairly similar to delvecchio, but did not play much with howe. retired 4th all time in scoring and is a HHOFer. led the playoffs in scoring twice. probably should have won the hart in '65. he probably lost b/c award voting was conducted in 2 parts: midseason and end of season. bobby hull totally dominated midseason voting in '65, but fared poorly in end of season voting. ullman outscored hull 83 to 71, played a better defensive game and DRW finished 1st, but lost based on hull's dominant 1st half votes.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

You argue that Osgood, who has some of the best career regular season AND career playoff numbers EVER, should not be retired. Then continue on to state that Brendan Shanahan has been "key" (the only Wings playoff team he was more important to during Osgood's tenure was 1997, when Vernon was the playoff goalie). If we're retiring Shanahan's number because of the 1996 trade (which is what the Shanahan love-fest is about) then we might as well retire Larry Murphy's; without the Murphy trade the Wings wouldn't have had the same offensive depth on D due to the loss of Coffey in the Shanahan trade, and would likely have lost again. For the eight-year period of the 95-02 Wings, the importance of players through the era as a whole was as such: Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Osgood. After that you can argue whether six years of Shanahan beats three years of Konstantinov, three years of Vernon, four years of Chelios, seven years of Larionov, seven years of Kozlov, etc.

But to bring up the idea of "Man, the Wings have been a modern-day dynasty with all of this domination! We should retire their key players!" and then ignore a goaltender who played with with Detroit fourteen seasons from 93-94 to 2010-11 and was the primary goaltender during the regular season in nine of those seasons. He won 400+ career games (top ten all-time) and fourth in wins for a single team (317, a mark that would be a record on 27 teams but is not in Detroit due to Sawchuk's 351.) Despite finishing with 34 fewer wins than Sawchuk, he had 58 fewer losses (included OTL) and 86 fewer ties. So assuming he had 59 decisions per season, he'd have to average 11-19-29 over three seasons to match Sawchuk statistically.

He would need a 3-5 playoff year to match Patrick Roy's Montreal numbers. He'd also need to lose nine shutouts, because Osgood posted 14 with Detroit while Roy only posted 5 with Montreal.

A 14-10 playoff year with 2 shutouts would match Roy in Colorado. He'd also need to make 995 saves on 1073 shots in 1650 minutes; an average of about 69 minutes per game, with a .927sv%, 2.84GAA, and 39 SA/60. So basically he'd have to be Dwayne Roloson in Edmonton to exactly match Roy's numbers.

Osgood has the 7th-highest amount of playoff wins for a single franchise; Roy has two of the top six so that means he is one of the top six players in that regard.

Only Brodeur and Roy (Col) have more shutouts than Osgood in the playoffs. That's it. In all of the history of the NHL, nobody else has had 14+ career playoff shutouts for one team but those three.

Shanahan was a great player.
Osgood was not

Case closed

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The year Abel won the Hart, the Art Ross winner had 68 points.

Just saying. You can only be SO good compared to your competition (unless you're Wayne or Mario).

Sid Abel was tied for third in the league with 54 points in 60 games. -- 14 points behind the leader, Roy Conacher from Chicago.

That year, Abel had 54 points in 60 games.
Ted Lindsay had 54 points in 50 games for Detroit.

I wasn't around from 1939, so I don't know how good Abel was.

What I know is that he scored a point per game twice in his career.

What I know is that he led the Red Wings in scoring ONCE (and he was tied with a guy who played 10 less games.

Now, maybe Abel was an incredible defensive player -- best in the game.

Maybe, Abel's puck skills made people shake their head, and wonder if they really just saw what they think they saw.

But nobody with even a bit of honesty can look at Abel's career and say Datsyuk doesn't compare pretty well