Will Datsyuk and Zetterberg ever have their numbers retired?

[Sentinel]

I hate how exclusive it is. The retired numbers exist, because one can't imagine another player wearing this number. It bothers me greatly seeing someone other than Larionov and Shanahan wear 8 and 14, and I hope I will not see anybody ever wear 91, 96, and 16.

Ozzy does not deserve to be on the rafters, AINEC. The guy cost us more Cups (94, 96, 00) then he won (98, 08).

I'd love for it to be less exclusive though. But before Dats and Z go up, I hope to see Feds and Kelly there.

 

[nik jr]

hard to say b/c DRW have very high standards for retirements.


red kelly, syd howe, norm ullman, jack stewart, bill quackenbush and possibly others, would almost certainly had their numbers retired/honoured by most teams.

Longevity as a major criteria is dumb.

It isn't like Datsyuk played 5 or 7 years. He's spent virtually his entire career here.

This notion that him sticking around for 2 or 3 more 60-70 point seasons would make his case stronger is ludicrous.

And besides, as I've shown, as of right now, several Wings with retired numbers played elsewhere.

agree

 

[kuick]

Should solely be about the cornerstone of the team's success during the last 2 decades.

That list looks like:
Yzerman
Lidstrom
Fedorov
Datsyuk
Zetterberg

Pavel sticking around for 2-3 years while the team is struggling and rebuilding really does nothing for me. Yeah, I'd love if he did just for the sake of helping the team during a tougher period. After leading the team to back-to-back finals, along with several other years of true contention status, it's truly been the Eurotwin era (and Lidstrom ofcourse).

Like Bob said, at this point longevity means very little. They've earned it.

 

[kuick]

I'd love for it to be less exclusive though. But before Dats and Z go up, I hope to see Feds and Kelly there.

I agree here, but I think it's too late for Kelly unfortunately. Hell, they let Kindl take his number.

I hope by next season or two when Fedorov gets in to the HHOF with his Detroit jersey on, all the bitter feelings wash away and we honor him properly.

 

[Vladdy84]

Should solely be about the cornerstone of the team's success during the last 2 decades.

That list looks like:
Yzerman
Lidstrom
Fedorov
Datsyuk
Zetterberg

Pavel sticking around for 2-3 years while the team is struggling and rebuilding really does nothing for me. Yeah, I'd love if he did just for the sake of helping the team during a tougher period. After leading the team to back-to-back finals, along with several other years of true contention status, it's truly been the Eurotwin era (and Lidstrom ofcourse).

Like Bob said, at this point longevity means very little. They've earned it.

Yup.

 

[Adityase]

If osgood ever gets his number retired by the redwings it will be a diservice to the honor bestowed on red wing retiree's. He was never a dominant generational type player. Never. he played on great teams that allowed him to reach his win total. He didn't earn them, much like why he was never nominated for a vezina.

Osgood was never dominant he was however "good". But the numbers on our rafters all were dominant. If he gets a statue or something honoring him at the new stadium fine. But he doesn't deserve the high honor of jersey retirement in regards to this team.

In all honesty compared to the numbers up there right now (counting lidstrom among them atm damn lockout) both Z and Dats are short right now as much as I hate to say it. Now if both win 1 more cup before they retire I would say they then cross the threshold into getting theirs up there.

Dats pains me the most to say this. I absolutely love watching him play and when he goes it will be very painful to watch this team after for a fair amount of time until we are blessed with another generational talent. But I hate to admit he needs at least one possibly two of these following 3 awards to warrant it before he goes back to Russia : cup, conn smythe, or hart.

I know quite a few people both in rl and on this board hate how inclusive red wing # retiree's are. But honestly I love that you have to have one hell of a distinction to get put up on the rafters in this organization. Every # on our rafters means something. Quite possibly 1-5 who are not as well.

But can you look across the league and honestly say that every team that has jersey's retired that their our a few that shouldn't. Even Toronto and Montreal imho are guilty of this as well. And that to me is a great pride with our teams organization in that only the best of the best get put up in our stadium. It means more to be up in our rafters than it does to be in the hall of score very good/fame. And personally to me that is a measure of great pride and respect given to our #'s on the rafters.

The problem with your argument is that if they scored 2 more goals in game 7 of the finals in 09 Ozzie would have clearly won the Conn Smythe. And the winner should have been suspended for gm 3 if the league didn't break it's own rule just to help out the Pens. Ozzie was dominant that playoff run in a way no goalie was in my lifetime (which includes the 4 cup wins).

 

[Adityase]

Also, you can't credit Fedorov without crediting Shanny. Feds never won a cup without Shanny and Shanny never won one without Feds. Clearly, Feds was the better overall player, but Shanny was the vital last piece. And Shanny was one of the best at his position ever.

They should both go up. With 13 and 40.

 

[TheBeastman]

Why does it seem that a lot of peoples expectation for their numbers being retired is another cup. I think people forget that they've played practically their whole careers with the cap. Back in the Yzerman day's we were spending about double that of the average team. Had a cap been in place back then, I think you could argue that we only have 1 cup to the Yzerman regime as opposed to the 3. Plus 2 cups for Datsyuk and 1 and a con smythe for Z is more then most can claim, not to mention the near miss in 2009.

 

[odin1981]

The problem with your argument is that if they scored 2 more goals in game 7 of the finals in 09 Ozzie would have clearly won the Conn Smythe. And the winner should have been suspended for gm 3 if the league didn't break it's own rule just to help out the Pens. Ozzie was dominant that playoff run in a way no goalie was in my lifetime (which includes the 4 cup wins).

But by your example our rafters would be absolutely cluttered with players for having one good playoff run.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying he was less than a good player. But compared to every number up there he was never consistantley dominant for a extended period of time. 20-25 playoff games one year does not make one get the honor extended that only the chosen few have that are already up their.

 

[odin1981]

Why does it seem that a lot of peoples expectation for their numbers being retired is another cup. I think people forget that they've played practically their whole careers with the cap. Back in the Yzerman day's we were spending about double that of the average team. Had a cap been in place back then, I think you could argue that we only have 1 cup to the Yzerman regime as opposed to the 3. Plus 2 cups for Datsyuk and 1 and a con smythe for Z is more then most can claim, not to mention the near miss in 2009.

If memory serves me correctly every player up their has won 3 or more. So potentially the cup requirement is 3 or better in addition to other things.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

... and I hope I will not see anybody ever wear 16.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 16 is out of circulation is it not?

 

[Flowah]

Correct me if I'm wrong but 16 is out of circulation is it not?

Yeah but not retired.

 

[smurfyeah19]

Lidstrom first, then Fedorov, then Datsyuk in that order. I do believe all 3 eventually hang from the rafters however, not Zetterberg as he is far behind Dats in points, and Dats has done it in far less shots. He is my favorite Red Wing of this decade easily

 

[Sentinel]

Ozzie was dominant that playoff run in a way no goalie was in my lifetime (which includes the 4 cup wins).

Did you simply tune out Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, and Giguerre, to name a few? Ozzy's "dominant run" has nothing on these guys.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Lidstrom first, then Fedorov, then Datsyuk in that order. I do believe all 3 eventually hang from the rafters however, not Zetterberg as he is far behind Dats in points, and Dats has done it in far less shots. He is my favorite Red Wing of this decade easily

Um.

* PPG (stands for Points Per Game not Power Play Goals)

Zetterberg Regular Season:

GP: 708 G: 261 A: 401 P: 662 PPG: 0.94 GWG:54 PIM: 289 +/-: 142

Datsyuk Regular Season:

GP: 773 G: 253 A: 506 P: 759 PPG: 0.98 GWG: 43 PIM: 204 +/-: 223

Zetterberg Post-season:

GP: 109 G: 51 A: 51 P: 102 PPG: 0.94 GWG: 7 PIM: 59 +/-: 38

Datsyuk Post-season:

GP: 126 G: 33 A: 61 P: 94 PPG: 0.75 GWG: 5 PIM: 45 +/-: 32

.04 behind per game is hardly a big deal. I don't care if he shoots more, someone has to do it. But while Datsyuk maintains an edge in assists this is far from a big gap in terms of points. When factoring in the playoff factor there is hardly anything that separates them except the terribly flawed +/- stats. They produce at a strikingly similar clip and Zetterberg is likely to end up with more points although his PPG average will dip if he plays out his contract in full. We will see if Datsyuk goes back to Russia, should keep him at the borderline PPG level, even a two or three year deal is unlikely to see him in steep decline before he leaves given the kind of game he plays.

Given we place emphasis on the playoffs hard to see the argument Datsyuk has vastly outproduced Zetterberg in a Red Wings jersey. He certainly has been more fun to watch and both guys are Red Wings through and through. But very likely Zetterberg is going to be the third longest tenured Wings captain when he retires and that is going to mean a lot as well. He also has outproduced him at .19 PPG in the playoffs.

 

[Kronwalled55]

If one goes up, they both go up. I have a gut feeling they will retire 13 and 40.

Personally I think 91 should go up there too, but that's another topic.

 

[TheBeastman]

If memory serves me correctly every player up their has won 3 or more. So potentially the cup requirement is 3 or better in addition to other things.

Yes, but you're not taking everything into account. You're talking about the uncapped era to a capped era. There is parity now which prevents dynasties from being built. Example of course being Chicago having to completely dismantle their team after 2010. You can't compare the accomplishments now to what has happened pre-cap. In the Yzerman era you had a 3rd or 4th line with the talent comparable to most teams 1st lines because you could pay them more. And I'm not trying to take away from what Yzerman accomplished, but I would doubt any team is getting 3 cups in the next 15 years, so does that mean no one deserves to be retired? Iginla doesn't have a cup to his name in Calgary, but I would guarantee his name in the rafters.

 

[odin1981]

And this only effects yzerman and lidstrom because everyone else didn't play in a era where their was strung out teams on steroids for rosters in comparison with every other team. The o6 days every team (minus rangers and if I recall correctly the blackhawks after their early stars and such retired) where absolutley loaded with talent.

But can you argue of those two I mentioned that either of them don't deserve the honor? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that is the only requirement to get put up their. But generally speaking if this organization continues to draft and develope right 3 cups from a career of 12-20 years of a red wing great shouldn't be too hard to do when you factor who is already up there. The only problem would be if we had a generational type player with just crap luck in regards to other talent on the team. Not that this is specifically a detroit example but I'd throw out what hasek went threw in his sabres days.

 

[BigDucky]

The criteria for number retirement in Detroit seems to be HHOF caliber players who were team cornerstones during eras that produced multiple Cup winners. I firmly believe Fedorov should be up there after his HOF induction, and if Ozzy makes the HOF, I wouldn't be opposed to his number going up either. Datsyuk has 4 Byngs, 3 Selkes, 2 cups, and 1 all-star selection all as a Red Wing. He's 6th on the team's all-time scoring list and has been one of the more exciting players to watch his whole career. That's enough for me to say that his number should be up there, and his career isn't over yet. If Zetterberg makes it, he'd be the only player up there who didn't win multiple cups, unless of course the Red Wings win another cup. Given the way things have changed since the second lock-out, I don't know if multiple cup wins should still be part of the criteria for number retirement. Should a great player be held back because he played in an era when it was harder to win multiple cups? Hard to say. I'd like to see more from Zetterberg before I say his number should be up there, but I have a feeling that by the end of his career I'll be on the side that says hang it up.

As for some other names being thrown around, Shanahan was a hired gun, not a career Red Wing. Red Kelly is the second best defenseman in franchise history and one of the most important players on those great teams in the 50's. It wasn't his fault he got traded, and I'm sure at the time he would have preferred to remain a Wing for life; however, he went on to win 4 Cups in 7 years with Toronto. I'd have a hard time retiring a number in Detroit for another dynasty's key player.

They pretend that those guys who played in the 50s were more loyal to the franchise. Meanwhile, when Gordie got the chance, he not only left the Red Wings, he left the NHL for a new start up league.

Gordie had been retired 2 years when Houston offered him a chance to play on the same line with Mark and Marty. That's a little different than how you choose to portray the story.

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

Career-long Wings, one with a cup and a Smythe as well as a captain, the other two cups, an alternate, 3 selkes, and one of the most special players of his era. Yea, I think when all is said and done they'll both be up there. Datsyuk has the better chance, but I think if he gets up so will Z.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

People complaining about the exclusivity of the numbers in the rafters bothers me.

LOOK at who is up there.

 

[pdd]

I hate how exclusive it is. The retired numbers exist, because one can't imagine another player wearing this number. It bothers me greatly seeing someone other than Larionov and Shanahan wear 8 and 14, and I hope I will not see anybody ever wear 91, 96, and 16.

Ozzy does not deserve to be on the rafters, AINEC. The guy cost us more Cups (94, 96, 00) then he won (98, 08).

94, 96, 00?

In 1994, Osgood was light years better than Essensa. He started game one and allowed five goals. Osgood played the next game and got a shutout, and allowed two goals the following game. He was pulled in game 5 after a bad start (only to see Essensa give up 4 more goals), but came back in game 6 to allow only a single goal. Had he not made a ROOKIE MISTAKE, AS A ROOKIE, then he only allows two goals in game 7. The Detroit team that had averaged 4.17 goals per game through game 6, never scoring fewer than three, suddenly manages to only score two in game 7. Less than half of their average for the first six games, and barely more than half of the actual series average after seven games. Had the Wings won the final game 3-2, Detroit averages 4 goals exactly.

So placing the blame on Osgood for 1994 is incorrect.

In 1996, Osgood was one of the team's better players. And in the Colorado series, the Avs outscored the Wings 20-16 over six games. Colorado also scored an empty netter in their 4-2 win in game 4, meaning that Detroit scored 16 on Roy, and Colorado scored 19 on Osgood. Game six was a 4-1 Colorado win; going into that game each goaltender had given up 15 goals in 5 games. In all of Colorado's wins, Detroit scored 2 or fewer goals.

The problem was not Osgood, unless you think "not playing as well as Patrick Roy" means "submarining the team's Cup chances".

And in 2000, Osgood gave up 2, 2, 1, 3, and 4 goals in the five games against Colorado. Even with the big game at the end, it's still only 12 goals in 5 games, and 2.4 goals per game (by games, not minutes). Meanwhile, Detroit scored 0, 1, 3, 2, 2. That's only 1.6 goals per game.

Let's compare for a second.

Mike Vernon gave up 2, 3, 4, 5 in four games against New Jersey. In the third game he allowed four in only half a game and was pulled for Osgood, who allowed 1 in slightly more than the time Vernon saw that game. So in 3.5 games, Vernon gave up 14 goals. That's 3.5 goals per game (by game played) or close to four (by minutes). Far worse than anything you have condemned Osgood with.

Now, let's look at Hasek's Cup win on the "best roster ever":

He gave up 15 goals in six games against Vancouver in the first round, including 4 goals in each of the first two games (putting the Wings down 0-2) and the sixth game (the Wings' offense bailed him out).

In 2007, Hasek gave up 14 goals in six games against Anaheim after giving up only nine against San Jose and ten against Calgary. All three teams scored 258 goals in the regular season; why did he turn (in relative terms) into a doormat against Anaheim?

And we all know about 2008; when Osgood had to bail the Wings out after Hasek pulled a Cloutier.

I'd love for it to be less exclusive though. But before Dats and Z go up, I hope to see Feds and Kelly there.

Feds and Kelly definitely deserve it, and I think they should put Aurie up officially as his number was officially retired (applying the HHOF standards to him 40 years later is BS; he was considered the best player in franchise history by the franchise when he retired. They didn't retire another number until Gordie Howe, even though Syd Howe was the all-time points leader and spent a great portion of his career as a Wing.

Osgood also deserves it. He was the second-most important player in one Cup win, most important player in another Finals appearance, and arguably top-three in another Cup win. Sawchuk, and Delvecchio arguably can't even claim that, given Howe, Kelly, Lindsay, and Abel. Zetterberg can't claim it (yet). Neither can Datsyuk (not even close). Yzerman, Lidstrom, Howe, and Lindsay are the only retired players who can claim the same level of importance through Cup wins and Finals runs. Fedorov and Kelly as additional players who are not retired. Between Cup Finals/wins importance and career RS success in Detroit, Osgood is extremely deserving of having his number retired when compared to anyone else who has been a Wing; even other retired players.

That's it.

So hang #4, #6, #30, and #91. Maybe in five to ten years we'll see one or both of #13 and #40.

Knowing Holland, we'll probably see #27 and #93 go up.

 

[BigDucky]

People complaining about the exclusivity of the numbers in the rafters bothers me.

LOOK at who is up there.

What about 'em?

 

[theYman]

Just Datsyuk. But they haven't done Fedorov yet. So I don't know.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

People complaining about the exclusivity of the numbers in the rafters bothers me.

LOOK at who is up there.

It is a very exclusive club, especially since they took down Aurie's number. It is beyond just being a hall of famer. Having your number retired by the Wings really is one of the greatest accomplishments in sports.