Why the Habs need to make a push now

[Milhouse40]

Ana fans on here seem to be saying that Lindholm is not available and/or doesn’t make sense to trade. You did put a strong case for them to listen IMO.

But just for argument sake, why would Lindholm be worth so much?

I don’t like Kreider but I get the general idea. I still think we should try to win with kids. Habs have a great leader in Weber, etc. Just bring and draft good kids, and keep building. No quick fix.

Well, all this was an example. Could Kreider, Coyle....anyone you can have for that price that is available and fits the bill (at least one more year in terms) .

As for the price for Lindholm (and all the other) i simply overbet largely just for the sake of showing that sometimes, you have to get out and get what you need when it's available and that's possible while not killing the team.

 

[Runner77]

After every draft I hear people say our pool is strong, it's not as of now. We don't know for a while. People were drooling over Mccarron and he was an untouchable. Same with a lot of other busts. Too early to start calling our pool strong.

Except that experts didn't call our pool strong, further to those drafts. But they sure as hell are doing so now.

Does it guarantee anything? Obviously not. Nothing is ever guaranteed but the experts seem to value what the Habs have done in their last draft. Plus we now have someone competent in Bouchard, to develop those players who will reach the AHL soon.

 

[FF de Mars]

I know most fans would like Bergevin to do a proper rebuild. Stack on prospects and don't trade future for a marginal Cup push.

The way I see things, we have a lot of older players like; Weber, Price, Petry, Tatar. Also, we have a lot of players that are having a career year and for some of them, it's only going to go downward after that.

I don't see Gallagher, Shaw, Petry, Tatar, Benn, Price and Weber having too many better season then this in the future. That is a fairly big chunk of our team. They are currently performing at the top of their expectations. You have to believe they won't be able to sustain this pace for too long.


Other things to consider;

This Draft is fairly weak; With Kotkaniemi, Domi, Danault, Poehling, Evans, Olofsson. I think the Habs are set in stone at Center. We also have Primeau who in my mind is a blue chip prospect keeper and most Habs fan are underrated him. He could very well be Price's backup in 3 years. That leaves us with Defense; with the emergence of Romanov and Brook this year and you could also add Cale Fleury, who is having a pretty decent first pro season. Habs are not looking too bad but we have to keep in mind that we will need to replace Petry and Weber in the near future so this really make the Defense our biggest needs. The 2019 draft, in my opinion, is pretty average especially for defencemen. I'm very high on Byram but he obviously won't be available. Other then that I'm not a big fan of York, Robertson, Seider, Broberg etc. there is not many D that project to be top 2 D.

Lots of good players available; I can't remember the last year that we had so many big names available at the deadline. That means the price for a rental will be lower than usual. We could be getting a player like Zuccarello for a 2nd rounder + mid prospect. This was the price for Plekanec last year. If him bergevin I would be targeting a player that could help our PP.

I would be willing to move a player like Suzuki or our 1 or 2nd rounder pick depending on the offer.

Lots of good players available; I can't remember the last year that we had so many big names available at the deadline. That mean the price for a rental will be lower then usual. We could be getting a player like Zuccarello for a 2nd rounder + mid prospect. This was the price for Plekanec last year. If him bergevin I would be targeting a player that could help our PP.

I would be willing to move a player like Suzuki or our 1 or 2nd rounder pick depending on the offer.

I love this thread, thank you! This needs to be debated. Your main argument is the following : "I don't see Gallagher, Shaw, Petry, Tatar, Benn, Price and Weber having too many better season then this in the future." I think you seriously overate those guys. Weber is not elite, he can't rush the puck, nor has the ice vision to make passes, he's an elite defensive specialist, a number 2. Price is great, but he's no Hasek, other top goalies are as good; and even then, Hasek never won the cup in Buffalo, where they lacked talent, he was traded to Detroit where he won it on one of the best team in the league. Gallagher, Tatar, Shaw and Petry are all good foot soldiers, but they aren't worldbeaters. And Benn is just archaic. Hence, the best option is to sell at the deadline foreseeing an active UFA hunting season combined with our very good prospect pool. Retool with all that cap space and stockpile fresh blood.

 

[cphabs]

Primeau- WJC and Hoby Baker candidate.
Romanov WJC best defenseman and 18 year old in KHL
Brook WJC and PPG defenseman
Pouling WJC MVP and PPG college center.
Suzuki WJC and PPG center
I’m missing a few but I’ve never seen a prospect pool in our club with those credentials.

 

[Runner77]

Never build a team around a goaltender.

I think it just happened. Wish we had the luck of the draw for Crosby that year but dems are the breaks.

 

[Milhouse40]

Depends. If he can make move like Rask for Niederreiter, yes. If he has to sacrifice anything substantial, no. I don't expect us to overachieve next season, so I don't really see the point of trading away futures. Besides, what do you believe we are winning this year anyway?

I admit that Minnesota got fleeced on that one ( He already got 8 goals in 12 games).
But he was proactive, although is team wasn't in PO he added.

 

[Runner77]

I'm not the biggest MB fan, but I find people quick to judge. Droning for Sergachev was having people jump off bridges. What's it look like today? JD is one of our best scorers and the other one is sitting most nights. People were crucifying him for the Domi trade and now? I won't go through all the examples but I find that people jump to conclusions really quick when most people here can't evaluate players to save their lives.

What it looks like today is misleading. You can't judge the trade of an 18 year old so soon.

And what makes you particularly gifted in evaluating players "to save your life"? Are you a pro scout? Amateur scout? Do you work for a professional organization? Again, you're continuing to undermine "people" in here when they're just fans sharing opinions.

 

[Runner77]

Primeau- WJC and Hoby Baker candidate.
Romanov WJC best defenseman and 18 year old in KHL
Brook WJC and PPG defenseman
Pouling WJC MVP and PPG college center.
Suzuki WJC and PPG center
I’m missing a few but I’ve never seen a prospect pool in our club with those credentials.

They're not all going to reach their ceilings or what some are projecting for them. However, there is strength in numbers -- the more prospects you have that are excelling, the greater the probability that some of them will realize that high potential.

 

[cphabs]

They're not all going to reach their ceilings or what some are projecting for them. However, there is strength in numbers -- the more players you have that are excelling, the greater the probability that some of them will realize that high potential.

Exactly! Also, these are some competitive players and will feed off of eachother.

 

[cphabs]

I think it just happened. Wish we had the luck of the draw for Crosby that year but dems are the breaks.

Not a slam on Price but just simple statistics.

 

[Runner77]

Exactly! Also, these are some competitive players and will feed off of eachother.

I really like where we're at and the coaching that has been added. I'd still like to see us get the best scouts available for both Pro and Amateur scouting and we should be able to pull it off since it's not an expense that is subject to a cap. This is where a high revenue team like the Habs, has a clear edge and they ought to use it more.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't want to call it anything. We're all just fans here sharing opinions. We can't always agree and neither should we all be held to the impossible standard of someone working in the industry as a professional, is all.

Also, social media has its lot of hyperbole and fans don't always see eye to eye. It happens.

You'll also notice that not everyone is making blanket statements about the GM, a lot of us are able to recognize the good from the bad. Just cause some bring up instances of failed moves or incompetence, doesn't mean they want to sound better than he is. It only means that they expect him to do his job. And since it's a very public job, he'll obviously get criticized as he'll be given credit, depending on what the argument is about.

Finally, the GM never used "rebuild" for his plan. Nor did he provide a lot of details other than calling it a "reset", which implies a quick upgrade and turnaround -- and which implicitly involves rebuilding to some extent. It's not a full-out rebuild, we haven't seen a full roster turnover since last summer but there have been major moves.

Even then.

Pacioretty was a bad captain, by all means, and Bergevin actually seemed pissed when Pacioretty started playing coy. It left the impression on me that Bergevin actually wanted to keep him longterm. Did it happen this way, I don't know? Was the sudden rise in team spirit due to Bergevin's impressive t-shirt slogan campaign, or did it have more to do with Poutyfaceretty leaving? If both those statements are true, what does it say about the crapshoot it was? Why did it take so much time to put the finger on that problem (even worst if accidently)? Just like it took so much pain and misery for Bergevin to realize how detrimental his buddy coach had become?

It's symptomatic all the way around.

Both Domi and Tatar were starting to look like reclamation projects.

So after 3 years of easy surfing to start with, then 3 years of almost complete ineptitude to follow-up, suddenly i should be lead to believe that those two reclamation projects in the 7th year were not just lucky strikes?

Seems like a whole leap of faith to me.

 

[cphabs]

I really like where we're at and the coaching that has been added. I'd still like to see us get the best scouts available for both Pro and Amateur scouting and we should be able to pull it off since it's not an expense that is subject to a cap. This is where a high revenue team like the Habs, has a clear edge and they ought to use it more.

I’ve said it before, in a capped league that is expanding you better have the best developmental program money can buy.

 

[Drew4u]

I'd be looking to sell Tatar or Danault if teams would offer 1st rounders. Don't see them having a role in the future.

 

[cphabs]

Even then.

Pacioretty was a bad captain, by all means, and Bergevin actually seemed pissed when Pacioretty started playing coy. It left the impression on me that Bergevin actually wanted to keep him longterm. Did it happen this way, I don't know? Was the sudden rise in team spirit due to Bergevin's impressive t-shirt slogan campaign, or did it have more to do with Poutyfaceretty leaving? If both those statements are true, what does it say about the crapshoot it was? Why did it take so much time to put the finger on that problem (even worst if accidently)? Just like it took so much pain and misery for Bergevin to realize how detrimental his buddy coach had become?

It's symptomatic all the way around.

Both Domi and Tatar were starting to look like reclamation projects.

So after 3 years of easy surfing to start with, then 3 years of almost complete ineptitude to follow-up, suddenly i should be lead to believe that those two reclamation projects in the 7th year were not just lucky strikes?

Seems like a whole leap of faith to me.

IMO Someone with authority in our organization is “advising” MB lately.

 

[cphabs]

I'd be looking to sell Tatar or Danault if teams would offer 1st rounders. Don't see them having a role in the future.

I’d keep Danault

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

IMO Someone with authority in our organization is “advising” MB lately.

Someone with a lot of seniority

 

[Runner77]

Even then.

Pacioretty was a bad captain, by all means, and Bergevin actually seemed pissed when Pacioretty started playing coy. It left the impression on me that Bergevin actually wanted to keep him longterm. Did it happen this way, I don't know? Was the sudden rise in team spirit due to Bergevin's impressive t-shirt slogan campaign, or did it have more to do with Poutyfaceretty leaving? If both those statements are true, what does it say about the crapshoot it was? Why did it take so much time to put the finger on that problem (even worst if accidently)? Just like it took so much pain and misery for Bergevin to realize how detrimental his buddy coach had become?

It's symptomatic all the way around.

Both Domi and Tatar were starting to look like reclamation projects.

So after 3 years of easy surfing to start with, then 3 years of almost complete ineptitude to follow-up, suddenly i should be lead to believe that those two reclamation projects in the 7th year were not just lucky strikes?

Seems like a whole leap of faith to me.

Well, I don't know how it can be argued that Pacioretty and Galchenyuk were not major moves. I didn't at all mean to refer to Bergevin's slogans in the process. I have no way of knowing what "attitude" means exactly and frankly, you need to be in the dressing room to know. It's an intangible that we can't really gauge from afar, if it's even an issue worth delving into in the first place.

You are correct in that no other major moves having taken place since the summer, we don't know with absolute certainty whether last summer was the result of the GM having turned a corner or a lucky hand. I'd like to believe that they've learned something and that they're on a path. His mid-season presser gave some hope that they're committed to following a plan that involves not taking shortcuts. I'm all for it, but stick to the plan this time.

 

[Habs Icing]

You don't build a contender by drafting at the bottom of every rounds.....that's not how you end up with a contender.
As long as Price is able to be Price, this team will draft in the 2nd part of every round. It's a vicious circle.

But waiting for magic beans isn't the way to go. That's what we did for 6 years.

Thats not true. In the last seven drafts Montreal has picked in the top half 3 times, 3rd Koko Puffs, 9th Sergachev, 3rd Chucky.

 

[JianYang]

Without that elite #1 C, I think you aren't even in a position to entertain this thought..... And if they they decide to go get one, then there would be too many holes to re fill anyways.

I would also add the need for a 1LD on this club, but an elite 1C for sure.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Well, I don't know how it can be argued that Pacioretty and Galchenyuk were not major moves. I didn't at all mean to refer to Bergevin's slogans in the process. I have no way of knowing what "attitude" means exactly and frankly, you need to be in the dressing room to know. It's an intangible that we can't really gauge from afar, if it's even an issue worth delving into in the first place.

You are correct in that no other major moves having taken place since the summer, we don't know with absolute certainty whether last summer was the result of the GM having turned a corner or a lucky hand. I'd like to believe that they've learned something and that they're on a path. His mid-season presser gave some hope that they're committed to following a plan that involves not taking shortcuts. I'm all for it, but stick to the plan this time.

The slogan comment was just a snide comment to contrast the actual impact on team spirit of Pacioretty's depature. It had nothing to do with what you said.

My point is that Pac seemed to be a problem as a captain. Team cohesion was its lowest it had been in a long time. Not only did management take so much time to do something about that, it seems it just happened kinda accidently with Pacioretty wanting to leave.

 

[JianYang]

I love this thread, thank you! This needs to be debated. Your main argument is the following : "I don't see Gallagher, Shaw, Petry, Tatar, Benn, Price and Weber having too many better season then this in the future." I think you seriously overate those guys. Weber is not elite, he can't rush the puck, nor has the ice vision to make passes, he's an elite defensive specialist, a number 2. Price is great, but he's no Hasek, other top goalies are as good; and even then, Hasek never won the cup in Buffalo, where they lacked talent, he was traded to Detroit where he won it on one of the best team in the league. Gallagher, Tatar, Shaw and Petry are all good foot soldiers, but they aren't worldbeaters. And Benn is just archaic. Hence, the best option is to sell at the deadline foreseeing an active UFA hunting season combined with our very good prospect pool. Retool with all that cap space and stockpile fresh blood.

Weber is more than an elite defensive specialist. Granted, he's not the most dynamic puck mover, but his shot creates so much chaos if it's not in the back of the net.

He is one of the greatest goal scorers we have seen in this league as a d-man. In his first 14 seasons, his goal totals are comparable to the greats of this game, all of whom happened to play in a much more goal driven era.

 

[Runner77]

The slogan comment was just a snide comment to contrast the actual impact on team spirit of Pacioretty's depature. It had nothing to do with what you said.

My point is that Pac seemed to be a problem as a captain. Team cohesion was its lowest it had been in a long time. Not only did management take so much time to do something about that, it seems it just happened kinda accidently with Pacioretty wanting to leave.

It really came to a boiling point when MB made it personal with Pacioretty. He blamed him for his lack of performance and then there was no way out of it, he had to trade him. I'm actually very surprised he was able to pull off the return that he did, considering that it looked to me that MB had put himself in an unfavorable trading position.

 

[yianik]

No we didn’t!!!!.....we had no centres back then either, this window has been shut since 93.....having Radulov and Markov would’ve IMO allowed us to enjoy 2 rounds of playoff hockey, that’s it.....we need Kotka and Poehling to develop and on the double.

With Domi and Danault plus them two, that window will open oh so narrow.

This year is for fun, let the players embrace the experience of a run, the next 3-4 will be our prime times.

Yes, without the 1 and 2Cs we do not compete for a Cup, team is just not capable missing such pieces. Add in no 2C or 4C, forget it. You just cant get those pieces at a TDL and go for it.

No shortcuts.

We need TT to have been right a bunch of times , especially these last 2 drafts. If Kotka s a 1C, Domi a 2C and Danault a high end 3C well ok then. Then maybe Brook is a 2D ? Romanov , Mete and Juulsen 2nd pair guys ? Well there we are. Poehling can be a 2C along with Domi ? Oh boy.

Likely guys like Petry and Tatar will be moved as they come up as UFAs, but as long as TT has drafted correctly and we develop correctly that will be ok, and we move those UFAs to be for younger pieces.

 

[cphabs]

It really came to a boiling point when MB made it personal with Pacioretty. He blamed him for his lack of performance and then there was no way out of it, he had to trade him. I'm actually very surprised he was able to pull off the return that he did, considering that it looked to me that MB had put himself in an unfavorable trading position.

Yep, and it not help that Max was 3x smarter than MB and educated.