Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
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People are killing Turgeon but all he did was turn the other cheek.
Not his own cheek though. The cheek of a teammate.
People are killing Turgeon but all he did was turn the other cheek.
Fleury was a whackjob on the ice in junior. It's not an excuse and I'm not sticking up for him but no coach could control him and we found out years later how one loser-as-a-human coach messed him up off-ice which might have affected him on-ice. Again not an excuse and I hated him in junior, he was a rat.The morons on the Canadian team were in the biggest game of their life, with a chance to win a gold medal. Because some Ruskie looked at them the wrong way they thought the best course of action was not take some abuse for the team (as is done by every player ten times a game during the playoffs) but to start a brawl? They had the mentality of five year old bullies. So you got slashed. Suck it up and try to win the g-damn game instead of reacting like a petulant, selfish macho big shot. It was a disgrace. I'm with Cherry in saying the Soviets had the wherewithal to bait oafs like Sanipass and he reacted just like they thought he might. Didn't Templeton prepare the team for this possibility? And Fleury machine gunning the bench after a goal. Stay classy.
And I'm not a pacifist when it comes to fighting in hockey. What grinds my gears is the gullibility and stupidity of the Canadian team just throwing away a chance at a gold medal because they thought getting revenge for their own personal battles trumped the team's quest for glory. That's the ultimate of putting yourself ahead of the team and being a crappy teammate.
My Best-Carey
Agreed. It would've been a tragedy if a player (Roy) was lying on the ice (he was), got kicked in the face by an opponent's skate (he did), and died (luckily he didn't). A real tragedy.Someone could have been seriously injured. Things would have been a lot different if tragedy struck. Say If a player got knocked out and hit their head on the ice and died.
The truth lies somewhere in between. Turgeon shouldn't have sat like a lump on the bench, but nor should he have joined an idiotic brawl in which Canada had nothing to win and everything to lose.
Perhaps what he should done was skated to his teammates and told them to get back to the bench in time to try for a Gold medal. At least he would have been proactive.
But as far as I'm concerned, players like Fleury and Sanipass shamed themselves and the nation's hockey program. A disgusting display.
Who knows how good of a playoff run he would've had in 1993 had Dale Hunter not totally cheap-shotted him.
Ironically some people say that one cheap-shot by Hunter kept Hunter out of HHOF.
I'm just stating the facts. Turgeon had more points/game in the playoffs than guys like Zetterberg, Iginla, Marchand, Clarke, Selanne, St.Louis, Shanahan, Hossa, etc., This does not change regardless of how one feels about it. Yes, the players mentioned were pretty damn good in the playoffs, that's why I brought them into the discussion. The point of the post was not to downgrade Bryan Trottier or Toews or anybody. But to show that the much maligned Turgeon, when placed side by side with these guys in a purely objective fashion, actually outproduced them so that maybe, just maybe, his playoff accomplishments shouldn't be ridiculed.
My Best-Carey
It goes without saying that if two guys had nearly identical career playoff PPG (e.g., Middleton and Turgeon), and of them had a great playoff season (e.g., Middleton in 83) while the other did not,* then the other was more consistent.
Despite not having a Middleton-like 33 pts in 17 games in one playoff run, Turgeon still produced at an equal pace when you compare their entire playoff careers.
This is a re-hash of a discussion we had a couple years ago, but I prefer to look at the overall numbers, rather than slicing and dicing them.
And if you insist on slicing and dicing them, as you did two years ago, the evidence does not support the claim that he didn't step up in big games or shut down as the series progressed. His scoring pace was higher in games 4 to 7 than in games 1 to 3.
* As noted above Turgeon was on pace for a Middleton-like playoff run before the Hunter attack.
Turgeon made the playoffs 15/19 years. That's a pretty good ratio compared to those players he's measured against. He had 97 points in 109 GP. I'm OK with him not having a real dominant postseason being there is a lot of value of contributing consistently each season without wild fluctuations. I mean if it all comes down to having that one super spectacular season, he didn't have that. So if that is the only measure then I guess he falls short. But he got his teams there and produced for them.You do have to take some context. I mentioned in the other post, Turgeon had very "vanilla" postseasons. Never spiking in one year or another and never taking his team on his back. If Daniel Briere and Logan Couture can do this why couldn't Turgeon, who we can agree was a better player?
Point/game playoff seasons for selected players. Second number is how many point/game playoff seasons with at least 10 GP.
Turgeon 8/3
Middleton 3/3
Sundin 4/1
Zetterberg 5/3
Datsyuk 4/3
Hawerchuk 11/1
Kariya 4/1
Selanne 3/0
Iginla 3/0
Dionne 4/1
Shanahan 6/1
Bergeron 1/1
Marchand 2/1
Trottier 4/4
Federov 7/3
Neely 4/2
Crosby 8/6
Nieuwendyk 4/0
St.Louis 4/3
Modano 4/3
Hossa 2/2
My Best-Carey
What I'm trying to say is a lot of guys with the perception of better playoff performers than Turgeon maybe aren't and Turgeon's achievements post season are underrated.I am trying to see what I am missing here.
What I'm trying to say is a lot of guys with the perception of better playoff performers than Turgeon maybe aren't and Turgeon's achievements post season are underrated.
Take Nieuwendyk. Averaged a point a game in a playoffs four times and never in a post season where he played over 10 games. Turgeon has eight of the former and three of the latter. Was Nieuwendyk a better playoff performer or did he just play on better teams?
My Best-Carey
I'll agree with you on Nieuwendyk, at least overall. I don't put him in the HHOF at all. If he is the standard, then Turgeon belongs. But I can't say that he is the standard, at least not my standard. He had the Conn Smythe in 1999, but other than that I find him an incredibly overrated playoff performer who gets a lot of miles out of that thing where he won three Cups with three different teams. None of that is relevant and certainly not more special than doing it three times with the same team.
But with so many of those other names, you saw a time when they took their teams by the scruff of the neck and carried them. Iginla isn't a legendary playoff performer, but he did to it once and came darn close! That's the problem with Turgeon, he was just ordinary all of the time in the postseason. Never blew you away, never raised his game.
Integrating three different team systems and cultures is a very difficult achievement.
This brawl was a huge black eye. Pummeling a person while on the ground with multiple punches and cheap shots to the face isn't in Turgeon's repertoire. The most likely result would have been Turgeon getting hurt.
IMO those starting the fight are the cowards. This is hockey not bar room brawling.
Just my two cents.
Forwards in the HOF (likely future guys) with over 100 playoff games who averaged less points/game than Turgeon: Bobby Clarke, Henrik Zetterberg, Yvan Cournoyer, Alex Develcchio, Frank Mahovolich, Jonathon Toews, Bill Barber, Dino Ciccarelli, Ron Francis, Martin St.Louis, Johnny Bucyk, Mike Modano, Brian Trottier, Daniel Alfredsson, Dickie Moore, Jean Ratelle, Luc Robitaille, Jeremy Roenick, Mark Recchi, Patrick Elias, Norm Ullman, Joe Thornton, Patrice Bergeron, Mike Gartner, Corey Perry, Joe Mullen, the Sedins, Joe Mullen, Joe Nieuwendyk, Brendan Shanahan, Marian Hossa, Pavel Datsyuk, Lanny McDonald, Brad Richards, Patrick Marleau, Teemu Selanne, Igor Larionov, Dave Andreychuk, Clark Gillies, Bert Olmstead, Bob Gainey.That's the problem with Turgeon, he was just ordinary all of the time in the postseason. Never blew you away, never raised his game.
In Kariya's best five seasons he averaged 94.8 points. Turgeon's five best were an average of 103.4 points per season. There might be an era adjustment but it is hard to see Kariya "quite clearly" better in their peak seasons.
My Best-Carey
I lol'd, agreed. Good way of putting it in perspective.He was a rich man's Craig Janney... which still makes him a poor man's Hall of Famer.
He was a rich man's Craig Janney... which still makes him a poor man's Hall of Famer.
He was an offensively talented player who never seemed to lead or carry his team in any perceivable manner. Kind of the anti-Messier. About the only time I can remember him "putting the team on his back" was in the Washington series where Dale Hunter gave him his legendary cheap shot.
I'm trying to think of a modern comparable... how about Sean Monahan?
Would anyone say Sean Monahan is carving out a HoF career?
I mentioned in the other post, Turgeon had very "vanilla" postseasons. Never spiking in one year or another and never taking his team on his back. If Daniel Briere and Logan Couture can do this why couldn't Turgeon, who we can agree was a better player?
I'll agree with you on Nieuwendyk, at least overall. I don't put him in the HHOF at all. If he is the standard, then Turgeon belongs. But I can't say that he is the standard, at least not my standard. He had the Conn Smythe in 1999, but other than that I find him an incredibly overrated playoff performer who gets a lot of miles out of that thing where he won three Cups with three different teams. None of that is relevant and certainly not more special than doing it three times with the same team.
Turgeon finished in the top 10 in points per game 5 different times - which included 3rd and 4th place finishes
Monahan isn't in that tier of offense production
Turgeon's modern day comparables would be guys like Tavares, Seguin, Giroux, Backstrom