Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

[Theokritos]

People are killing Turgeon but all he did was turn the other cheek.

Not his own cheek though. The cheek of a teammate.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'm going to post this again because i don't think certain people are understanding, though it has been said again and again in this thread. it's ridiculous that we are discussing PIERRE TURGEON as a referendum on the place of fighting in hockey.

if this is the conversation you want to have there was a conscientious objector on team canada. it was steve nemeth, not turgeon.

 

[ryerockarola]

The morons on the Canadian team were in the biggest game of their life, with a chance to win a gold medal. Because some Ruskie looked at them the wrong way they thought the best course of action was not take some abuse for the team (as is done by every player ten times a game during the playoffs) but to start a brawl? They had the mentality of five year old bullies. So you got slashed. Suck it up and try to win the g-damn game instead of reacting like a petulant, selfish macho big shot. It was a disgrace. I'm with Cherry in saying the Soviets had the wherewithal to bait oafs like Sanipass and he reacted just like they thought he might. Didn't Templeton prepare the team for this possibility? And Fleury machine gunning the bench after a goal. Stay classy.

And I'm not a pacifist when it comes to fighting in hockey. What grinds my gears is the gullibility and stupidity of the Canadian team just throwing away a chance at a gold medal because they thought getting revenge for their own personal battles trumped the team's quest for glory. That's the ultimate of putting yourself ahead of the team and being a crappy teammate.

My Best-Carey

Fleury was a whackjob on the ice in junior. It's not an excuse and I'm not sticking up for him but no coach could control him and we found out years later how one loser-as-a-human coach messed him up off-ice which might have affected him on-ice. Again not an excuse and I hated him in junior, he was a rat.

And I guess Templeton never did prepare the team properly. He never went much further in his coaching career as this hung like a black cloud over him. Pat Burns on the other hand got past this, maybe because he wasn't the head coach.

 

[ryerockarola]

Someone could have been seriously injured. Things would have been a lot different if tragedy struck. Say If a player got knocked out and hit their head on the ice and died.

Agreed. It would've been a tragedy if a player (Roy) was lying on the ice (he was), got kicked in the face by an opponent's skate (he did), and died (luckily he didn't). A real tragedy.

 

[Big Phil]

The truth lies somewhere in between. Turgeon shouldn't have sat like a lump on the bench, but nor should he have joined an idiotic brawl in which Canada had nothing to win and everything to lose.

Perhaps what he should done was skated to his teammates and told them to get back to the bench in time to try for a Gold medal. At least he would have been proactive.

But as far as I'm concerned, players like Fleury and Sanipass shamed themselves and the nation's hockey program. A disgusting display.

I mean................they didn't really start it either though. Not the brawl at least. It is well documented that the Soviets jumped off the ice first. What else are you supposed to do in that situation? I won't hold his feet to the fire because he was 17, but the problem with that is Turgeon had that reputation throughout his career and didn't do anything to change it. If it was a one-off thing at 17 then no big deal.

 

[Big Phil]

Who knows how good of a playoff run he would've had in 1993 had Dale Hunter not totally cheap-shotted him.

Ironically some people say that one cheap-shot by Hunter kept Hunter out of HHOF.

I guess one can never know. Although either way they get taken out by Montreal in the semis. I am not a fan of Hunter being in there one way or another anyway. He'd be a hard guy to defend if he were in there.

I'm just stating the facts. Turgeon had more points/game in the playoffs than guys like Zetterberg, Iginla, Marchand, Clarke, Selanne, St.Louis, Shanahan, Hossa, etc., This does not change regardless of how one feels about it. Yes, the players mentioned were pretty damn good in the playoffs, that's why I brought them into the discussion. The point of the post was not to downgrade Bryan Trottier or Toews or anybody. But to show that the much maligned Turgeon, when placed side by side with these guys in a purely objective fashion, actually outproduced them so that maybe, just maybe, his playoff accomplishments shouldn't be ridiculed.

My Best-Carey

I guess I am saying it because Turgeon was more or less "vanilla" in every playoff year he played. There weren't spikes at all. He has a playoff career that is similar to someone like Sundin, or Hawerchuk. Not horrible, especially when using context, but nothing great either. The difference being both of those players were better in the regular season. Hawerchuk certainly had better seasons overall and Sundin had much better consistency. And was there a time when a GM would have preferred Turgeon on his team over Sundin? We know for sure Hawerchuk was better.

So I think that is the problem I have with him. 20 years and he couldn't muster up one decent playoff run? The PPG thing is a thing we need to take into context as well. Trottier's PPG in the playoffs goes down because of his production in his later Islander years and that time in Pittsburgh. 7 points in a playoff year at the end of your career is bound to bring down your PPG. But this guy was a Conn Smythe winner! He has several excellent runs and he was part of a dynasty. Surely that surpasses a guy who never even reached the final right?

So I don't think playoff PPG is something we can look at in just raw terms. I don't think Turgeon was a better playoff performer than any of those guys.

 

[Big Phil]

It goes without saying that if two guys had nearly identical career playoff PPG (e.g., Middleton and Turgeon), and of them had a great playoff season (e.g., Middleton in 83) while the other did not,* then the other was more consistent.

Despite not having a Middleton-like 33 pts in 17 games in one playoff run, Turgeon still produced at an equal pace when you compare their entire playoff careers.

This is a re-hash of a discussion we had a couple years ago, but I prefer to look at the overall numbers, rather than slicing and dicing them.

And if you insist on slicing and dicing them, as you did two years ago, the evidence does not support the claim that he didn't step up in big games or shut down as the series progressed. His scoring pace was higher in games 4 to 7 than in games 1 to 3.


* As noted above Turgeon was on pace for a Middleton-like playoff run before the Hunter attack.

You do have to take some context. I mentioned in the other post, Turgeon had very "vanilla" postseasons. Never spiking in one year or another and never taking his team on his back. If Daniel Briere and Logan Couture can do this why couldn't Turgeon, who we can agree was a better player? I use this same argument for Marcel Dionne. There had to be at least one time Dionne took a series over by himself and carried the Kings, but there wasn't. The thing with him is he was just so dominant in the regular season it doesn't affect his HHOF status at all. Plus he was routinely on Team Canada, Turgeon wasn't.

Middleton also was on teams that went deep, and part of that was because of Middleton as well. He contributed. Throw in the fact that he was much better defensively than Turgeon and I think you have a guy who was a better playoff performer. I know I pick Middleton when the chips are down over Turgeon, and to be honest Middleton isn't a legendary playoff guy either.

When a player has at least one Conn Smythe worthy run they at least get the benefit of the doubt that they can do it, even just once. Turgeon is nowhere near this. He even had everything laid out for him on a silver platter in 2000. He had the Hart winner on his team, he had another Norris contender on his team and he had the team with the best record in the NHL going against the 8th seeded team. No Red Wings or Avalanche in their way. Yet they lost in 7 games and Turgeon had 0 goals and 7 assists. 1 assist in the 4 losses. No points in Game 7, -1, 1 shot on net. I mean, that was his chance wasn't it?

 

[frisco]

You do have to take some context. I mentioned in the other post, Turgeon had very "vanilla" postseasons. Never spiking in one year or another and never taking his team on his back. If Daniel Briere and Logan Couture can do this why couldn't Turgeon, who we can agree was a better player?

Turgeon made the playoffs 15/19 years. That's a pretty good ratio compared to those players he's measured against. He had 97 points in 109 GP. I'm OK with him not having a real dominant postseason being there is a lot of value of contributing consistently each season without wild fluctuations. I mean if it all comes down to having that one super spectacular season, he didn't have that. So if that is the only measure then I guess he falls short. But he got his teams there and produced for them.

Point/game playoff seasons for selected players. Second number is how many point/game playoff seasons with at least 10 GP.

Turgeon 8/3
Middleton 3/3
Sundin 4/1
Zetterberg 5/3
Datsyuk 4/3
Hawerchuk 11/1
Kariya 4/1
Selanne 3/0
Iginla 3/0
Dionne 4/1
Shanahan 6/1
Bergeron 1/1
Marchand 2/1
Trottier 4/4
Federov 7/3
Neely 4/2
Crosby 8/6
Nieuwendyk 4/0
St.Louis 4/3
Modano 4/3
Hossa 2/2

My Best-Carey

 

[whcanuck]

Turgeon was always very consistent. I really don't see how Mats Sundin is viewed with greater admiration than Turgeon. Maybe because Sundin was Captain of the Maple Leafs for such a long time? Their totals are pretty similar. Turgeon was quietly pretty consistent his entire career...kind of like Vincent Damphousse. The Hall of Fame thing is hard, they've let some guys in that I definitely didn't agree with, and there's some guys that should be in that aren't. Turgeon should be viewed as a very consistent scorer, and one of the best playmakers of the 90s..Hall of Fame or not.

 

[Big Phil]

Point/game playoff seasons for selected players. Second number is how many point/game playoff seasons with at least 10 GP.

Turgeon 8/3
Middleton 3/3
Sundin 4/1
Zetterberg 5/3
Datsyuk 4/3
Hawerchuk 11/1
Kariya 4/1
Selanne 3/0
Iginla 3/0
Dionne 4/1
Shanahan 6/1
Bergeron 1/1
Marchand 2/1
Trottier 4/4
Federov 7/3
Neely 4/2
Crosby 8/6
Nieuwendyk 4/0
St.Louis 4/3
Modano 4/3
Hossa 2/2

My Best-Carey

I am trying to see what I am missing here. Turgeon had only 4 times where he got out of the first round of the playoffs, which means he had only 4 times with at least 10 games. Of those 4, once below a PPG, twice exactly a PPG and once above a PPG. I'll reiterate what I said earlier, on that list there are a scarce amount of guys who Turgeon had a better postseason career than. Selanne, Kariya, Dionne, would fit that list. Maybe Iginla. Hawerchuk is equal to him. That's about it, and of those names his career wasn't better overall than any of them.

 

[frisco]

I am trying to see what I am missing here.

What I'm trying to say is a lot of guys with the perception of better playoff performers than Turgeon maybe aren't and Turgeon's achievements post season are underrated.

Take Nieuwendyk. Averaged a point a game in a playoffs four times and never in a post season where he played over 10 games. Turgeon has eight of the former and three of the latter. Was Nieuwendyk a better playoff performer or did he just play on better teams?

My Best-Carey

 

[Big Phil]

What I'm trying to say is a lot of guys with the perception of better playoff performers than Turgeon maybe aren't and Turgeon's achievements post season are underrated.

Take Nieuwendyk. Averaged a point a game in a playoffs four times and never in a post season where he played over 10 games. Turgeon has eight of the former and three of the latter. Was Nieuwendyk a better playoff performer or did he just play on better teams?

My Best-Carey

I'll agree with you on Nieuwendyk, at least overall. I don't put him in the HHOF at all. If he is the standard, then Turgeon belongs. But I can't say that he is the standard, at least not my standard. He had the Conn Smythe in 1999, but other than that I find him an incredibly overrated playoff performer who gets a lot of miles out of that thing where he won three Cups with three different teams. None of that is relevant and certainly not more special than doing it three times with the same team.

But with so many of those other names, you saw a time when they took their teams by the scruff of the neck and carried them. Iginla isn't a legendary playoff performer, but he did to it once and came darn close! That's the problem with Turgeon, he was just ordinary all of the time in the postseason. Never blew you away, never raised his game.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'll agree with you on Nieuwendyk, at least overall. I don't put him in the HHOF at all. If he is the standard, then Turgeon belongs. But I can't say that he is the standard, at least not my standard. He had the Conn Smythe in 1999, but other than that I find him an incredibly overrated playoff performer who gets a lot of miles out of that thing where he won three Cups with three different teams. None of that is relevant and certainly not more special than doing it three times with the same team.

But with so many of those other names, you saw a time when they took their teams by the scruff of the neck and carried them. Iginla isn't a legendary playoff performer, but he did to it once and came darn close! That's the problem with Turgeon, he was just ordinary all of the time in the postseason. Never blew you away, never raised his game.

Integrating three different team systems and cultures is a very difficult achievement.

 

[Big Phil]

Integrating three different team systems and cultures is a very difficult achievement.

I understand that, but Mike Keane, Al Arbour, Mark Recchi and Claude Lemieux just off the top of my head, did it too. The only one I would put in the HHOF is Recchi, and not because it was three different teams.

 

[Jets4Life]

This brawl was a huge black eye. Pummeling a person while on the ground with multiple punches and cheap shots to the face isn't in Turgeon's repertoire. The most likely result would have been Turgeon getting hurt.

IMO those starting the fight are the cowards. This is hockey not bar room brawling.

Just my two cents.

If this were the army, Turgeon would have faced a court martial, and been sentenced to jail for cowardice.

Have you ever bothered to play team sports. This isn't golf. It's a rough and violent sport. A team sport. It always has been and always will. If Turgeon did not want to help his teammates, especially one who was getting assaulted by two Russians, he could have quit hockey, and tried a less violent sport.

This is precisely why Turgeon is never going to get into the Hall of Fame, above all else.

 

[frisco]

That's the problem with Turgeon, he was just ordinary all of the time in the postseason. Never blew you away, never raised his game.

Forwards in the HOF (likely future guys) with over 100 playoff games who averaged less points/game than Turgeon: Bobby Clarke, Henrik Zetterberg, Yvan Cournoyer, Alex Develcchio, Frank Mahovolich, Jonathon Toews, Bill Barber, Dino Ciccarelli, Ron Francis, Martin St.Louis, Johnny Bucyk, Mike Modano, Brian Trottier, Daniel Alfredsson, Dickie Moore, Jean Ratelle, Luc Robitaille, Jeremy Roenick, Mark Recchi, Patrick Elias, Norm Ullman, Joe Thornton, Patrice Bergeron, Mike Gartner, Corey Perry, Joe Mullen, the Sedins, Joe Mullen, Joe Nieuwendyk, Brendan Shanahan, Marian Hossa, Pavel Datsyuk, Lanny McDonald, Brad Richards, Patrick Marleau, Teemu Selanne, Igor Larionov, Dave Andreychuk, Clark Gillies, Bert Olmstead, Bob Gainey.

All were outproduced by the ordinary Turgeon in the playoffs.

My Best-Carey

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

There's two factors here to consider:

(1) Turgeon will never overcome the stigma of Piestany. He did the 'soft scorer guy' thing of not getting involved, but it was the wrong time and place to do that because this wasn't some standard theatrics at the end of a blowout regular season game where everyone knows exactly what the situation is and why things are happening.

When Canada went to Eastern Europe to play the Soviets there was always a 'backs against the wall' 'all hands on deck' element to it because of the politics - both in the world at-large and the IIHF specifically. This was always going to be looked at as much bigger than whether a guy is a fighter or not. Turgeon as a kid was probably not in a position to understand that on a rational level..but perhaps the fact he didn't *feel* it on an instinctive level is indicative of a certain aloofness.

(2) Turgeon as a NHL player was a good 1C, but no-one ever felt 'wow this Turgeon kid is putting together a HOF career here' at the time of him playing. The entire argument is basically that being a good 1C for X number of seasons is in itself a HOF case. That generally isn't going to gain a ton of traction with folks unless it's guys seen as special for intangible reasons..which Turgon never was even ignoring factor (1). But (1) is basically the nail in his coffin. Though I guess we just have to wait another 20 years in social change for him to get hailed as an early pioneer fighting against 'toxic masculinity' and get a trophy named after him.

 

[ted2019]

In Kariya's best five seasons he averaged 94.8 points. Turgeon's five best were an average of 103.4 points per season. There might be an era adjustment but it is hard to see Kariya "quite clearly" better in their peak seasons.

My Best-Carey

Don't forget about Kariya's career at Maine.. That alone should put him ahead of Pierre.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

He was a rich man's Craig Janney... which still makes him a poor man's Hall of Famer.

He was an offensively talented player who never seemed to lead or carry his team in any perceivable manner. Kind of the anti-Messier. About the only time I can remember him "putting the team on his back" was in the Washington series where Dale Hunter gave him his legendary cheap shot.

I'm trying to think of a modern comparable... how about Sean Monahan?

Would anyone say Sean Monahan is carving out a HoF career?

 

[ryerockarola]

He was a rich man's Craig Janney... which still makes him a poor man's Hall of Famer.

I lol'd, agreed. Good way of putting it in perspective.

 

[Neutrinos]

He was a rich man's Craig Janney... which still makes him a poor man's Hall of Famer.

He was an offensively talented player who never seemed to lead or carry his team in any perceivable manner. Kind of the anti-Messier. About the only time I can remember him "putting the team on his back" was in the Washington series where Dale Hunter gave him his legendary cheap shot.

I'm trying to think of a modern comparable... how about Sean Monahan?

Would anyone say Sean Monahan is carving out a HoF career?

Turgeon finished in the top 10 in points per game 5 different times - which included 3rd and 4th place finishes

Monahan isn't in that tier of offense production

Turgeon's modern day comparables would be guys like Tavares, Seguin, Giroux, Backstrom

 

[sr edler]

I mentioned in the other post, Turgeon had very "vanilla" postseasons. Never spiking in one year or another and never taking his team on his back. If Daniel Briere and Logan Couture can do this why couldn't Turgeon, who we can agree was a better player?

Daniel Briere didn't take teams "on his back" during any post season. In 05–06 he had one more point than Chris Drury when the Sabres reached the CFs, and in 2010 with Philly he scored a lot of points but was pretty putrid defensively and both Pronger and Richards were obviously more important players overall which anyone who watched an actual game could see while half-sleeping.

 

[Thenameless]

I'll agree with you on Nieuwendyk, at least overall. I don't put him in the HHOF at all. If he is the standard, then Turgeon belongs. But I can't say that he is the standard, at least not my standard. He had the Conn Smythe in 1999, but other than that I find him an incredibly overrated playoff performer who gets a lot of miles out of that thing where he won three Cups with three different teams. None of that is relevant and certainly not more special than doing it three times with the same team.

Just being a bit of a devil's advocate, but it could be fairly argued that it's still somewhat of a special feat. Winning all your cups on the same team could have the implication of being on a dynasty - stability helps with things like team chemistry, and thus remaining dominant. If you win Cups with 3 different teams you:

A) first have to be wanted by those teams
B) obviously you have to contribute to each team
C) you have to find a way to fit in, at least on the second and third teams

The last one is important, because not all trades or free agent signings turn out so well.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Turgeon finished in the top 10 in points per game 5 different times - which included 3rd and 4th place finishes

Monahan isn't in that tier of offense production

Turgeon's modern day comparables would be guys like Tavares, Seguin, Giroux, Backstrom

Monahan's better defensively. I think it's a wash.

 

[reckoning]

For the record, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't dislike Turgeon. He's not a Hall of Famer, but he wouldn't be the worst choice they've made over the last decade (Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk, Andreychuk) Yet some of the arguments for him in this thread are weak.

Just to show that selectively choosing comparable players without context to form a misleading conclusion can work both ways:

A few of the players with more career playoff points than Turgeon:

Claude Lemieux, Brian Bellows, Ken Linseman, Daniel Briere, John Tonelli, Bernie Nicholls, Dale Hunter, Craig Janney, Geoff Courtnall, Rick MacLeish, Steve Thomas, Trevor Linden, Neal Broten, Scott Gomez, Brian Rafalski, Stephane Richer


Would you rather look at points per game?

Barry Pederson, Ken Linseman, Dennis Maruk, Mark Pavelich, Jason Allison, Craig Simpson, Thomas Gradin, Paul Reinhart, Bernie Nicholls, Steve Payne, Daniel Briere, Rick MacLeish, Jude Drouin, Bill Goldsworthy, Craig Janney, John Tucker

Not seeing any Hall of Famers there. Yet they all outproduced Turgeon