Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
No one forced anyone to fight, it was not a Soviet assault on Canadian players but total idiocy initiated by Sanipass and Fleury. Had the coaching staff intervened it would have stayed at that. Instead, they gave the Soviets a perfect opportunity to sabotage any Canadian chances of winning.



I'm sure Sanipass thinks so, after his own illustrious career in the NHL. And I'm also pretty sure the feeling is mutual, it's not like Turgeon has changed his view either. Generally speaking this idea of fighting as a part of some sort of misguided code of honor was definitely more prevalent in the 1980s than it is today, at some point the likes of Don Cherry will inevitably be obsolete if they are not already. It won't be what keeps Turgeon out of HHoF.
When everyone went over the boards and turgeon sat there he abdicated being part of the team.

And the players on the same team have every right to ask "when you saw a teamate getting doubled and just sat there, what the hell was that?"
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,274
7,723
Ostsee
BS. That ref never reffed another international game and had no business reffing that one.

Listen to Cherry and Farber discuss it the day after it happened and even Farber whos arguing against the Canadians fighting and blamed the Canadian coach admitted the Russians came off their bench first, four of them

I don't think there's footage that shows the benches, but based on the fact that there were many more white shirts on the ice initially (1:10 in the video below) I'm inclined to think that Cherry developed his very own narratives that have little to do with reality.

 

ryerockarola

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
6,000
7,586
I don't think there's footage that shows the benches, but based on the fact that there were many more white shirts on the ice initially (1:10 in the video below) I'm inclined to think that Cherry developed his very own narratives that have little to do with reality.


Cherry said 20 Russians jumped the boards, Farber corrected him saying it was 4. Speaking of people developing narratives that have little to do with reality... Some people actually watched the game and didn't just review clips of it on youtube 30 some years later.
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,274
7,723
Ostsee
That's the same footage as it was 30 years ago, it hasn't changed at all. If you want the full broadcast it's there too:



The whole narrative that Canadians were somehow assaulted and Turgeon let his team down is just not backed by any footage. It was a fight initiated and escalated mostly by the Canadians, and Turgeon wanted to have none of it.
 

ryerockarola

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
6,000
7,586
Yawn. Funny how you go from there's no clear footage of the benches to whatever you're spewing in your next post. You're right, it all went down exactly as you're saying hahaha, yup.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jets4Life

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,584
15,946
four screenshots from gare joyce's book

Screen Shot 2019-04-24 at 1.26.38 AM.png


Screen Shot 2019-04-24 at 1.26.46 AM.png


Screen Shot 2019-04-24 at 1.23.31 AM.png


Screen Shot 2019-04-24 at 1.25.06 AM.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: rfournier103

Newsworthy

Registered User
Jan 28, 2018
4,253
982
USA
When everyone went over the boards and turgeon sat there he abdicated being part of the team.

And the players on the same team have every right to ask "when you saw a teamate getting doubled and just sat there, what the hell was that?"

And Turgeon was pretty smart. This brawl is disgusting.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,110
15,573
Tokyo, Japan
The truth lies somewhere in between. Turgeon shouldn't have sat like a lump on the bench, but nor should he have joined an idiotic brawl in which Canada had nothing to win and everything to lose.

Perhaps what he should done was skated to his teammates and told them to get back to the bench in time to try for a Gold medal. At least he would have been proactive.

But as far as I'm concerned, players like Fleury and Sanipass shamed themselves and the nation's hockey program. A disgusting display.
 
  • Like
Reactions: smitty10

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
The truth lies somewhere in between. Turgeon shouldn't have sat like a lump on the bench, but nor should he have joined an idiotic brawl in which Canada had nothing to win and everything to lose.

Perhaps what he should done was skated to his teammates and told them to get back to the bench in time to try for a Gold medal. At least he would have been proactive.

But as far as I'm concerned, players like Fleury and Sanipass shamed themselves and the nation's hockey program. A disgusting display.
Why not? Don't want to throw? Fine. Get you ass over the boards and grab 2 fistfulls of the opponents jersey so that your teamates who do want to fight can square off with ONE player and not have to worry about getting suckered in a two on one. There is a reason why third man in is such a much much bigger penalty than two guys going.

There is no "somewhere in between" here. Your team goes over the boards, you go with them. You don't? You are a crappy teamate.
 

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
That's the same footage as it was 30 years ago, it hasn't changed at all. If you want the full broadcast it's there too:



The whole narrative that Canadians were somehow assaulted and Turgeon let his team down is just not backed by any footage. It was a fight initiated and escalated mostly by the Canadians, and Turgeon wanted to have none of it.

How many Canadians doubled up on a Russian player?

Psst the answer is zero.

And let's not keep with the narrative that going over the boards obliged you to throw. It did not, not then not now. All he had to do was grab two fists of jersey.
But he didn't, as as his outnumbered teamates were getting doubled up, he sat on his ass.

If he really didn't like the fights he should have "nedded" like in slapshot
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,668
16,394
Gare Joyce is an imbecile who deserves to have his lunch stolen by young kids.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,042
12,662
According to Hans Rønning, the referee that day:

"It was the Canadians who left the bench first, it was their fault that the fight happened. They started it. And I have no idea why when they still had a chance at the gold medal."

Yes, the referee is delusional. The IIHF stupidly (under the direction of supervisor of officials Fasel) put an inept referee in charge of one of the most important games and it blew up in his face. He still accepts no blame today and doesn't let reality influence his opinions.

The Punch-Up in Piestany: 30 years later - Sportsnet.ca
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,274
7,723
Ostsee
How many Canadians doubled up on a Russian player?

Psst the answer is zero.

I have no idea, but there was no fighting culture in Soviet hockey. I think the sole reason why the Soviet coaches allowed things to freely escalate once given the opportunity was an attempt to sabotage Canada's medal chances and somehow the Canadians completely failed to recognize that.
 

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
I have no idea, but there was no fighting culture in Soviet hockey. I think the sole reason why the Soviet coaches allowed things to freely escalate once given the opportunity was an attempt to sabotage Canada's medal chances and somehow the Canadians completely failed to recognize that.

the answer is still unchanged at zero. This isnt about " fighting culture" this is about a member of a team. upon seeing liberties being taken against a teamate, who decided to sit that one out and stay on the bench.

and from the ways some of the soviets were throwing, they knew a little about fighting culture.
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,274
7,723
Ostsee
There were plenty of Soviet players that didn't get involved at all, indeed many Canadians eager to fight were struggling to find partners and were going after the same guy unlike you claim.
 

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
7,191
4,119
Westward Ho, Alberta
There were plenty of Soviet players that didn't get involved at all, indeed many Canadians eager to fight were struggling to find partners and were going after the same guy unlike you claim.
I've watched the replay dozens of times, and that is definitely not what I saw. Both teams participated in the fall at equal numbers. In fact, there were even two Soviets beating on a lone Canadian player, so if anything, there were more Soviet players participating in the brawl than Canadians.
 

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
7,191
4,119
Westward Ho, Alberta
I have no idea, but there was no fighting culture in Soviet hockey. I think the sole reason why the Soviet coaches allowed things to freely escalate once given the opportunity was an attempt to sabotage Canada's medal chances and somehow the Canadians completely failed to recognize that.
There definitely was a fighting culture in Soviet hockey by the mid to late 80s. I've read a book about this incident, and it had nothing to do with sabotage. Evgeni Davydov left the bench without being ordered to by any other player or coach. The rest of the team just followed him out as the two benches emptied.
 

Albatros

Registered User
Aug 19, 2017
12,274
7,723
Ostsee
How many hockey fights can you identify in Soviet hockey at any point in history? You think the coaches in Piešťany had no authority to forbid the players? The coaches went along with what the Canadians started exactly because they realized that it benefits them way more and their asses were already on the line because of the historically poor showing in the tournament.
 

brachyrynchos

Registered User
Apr 10, 2017
1,472
997
It wasn't a bench clearing brawl but at the time of the Hunter incident, tough guys Benoit Hogue and Steve Thomas (?) had Turgeon's back (no pun intended), and heavyweights Dmitri Khristich and Paul Cavallini came to Hunter's defense...I guess Pierre would've preferred everybody just watch.
I'd be embarrassed and livid if my kid sat on the bench while yours was being outnumbered.
Turgeon was a very good player, but he wasn't clutch enough, he didn't take it up a notch enough. And for me, there were other centers and players that I think higher of based on how they played the game and what they brought and accomplished in their careers. The Hall of Fame committee feels the same way (I have no idea who's been on that committee since Turgeon became eligible or if it matters.).
 

decma

Registered User
Feb 6, 2013
743
375
As for the players he has more PPG in the playoffs, let's use a bit of context there too. He literally has .01 PPG more than Middleton. Every single other one of those names, including Middleton, had a great playoff run, sometimes even a Conn Smythe. Zetterberg played in the postseason at a rate that Turgeon never dreamed of and even Marchand there is no way someone would want Turgeon over him when the chips are down. I don't think there is a single player you mentioned that Turgeon had a better playoff career than. Sometimes overall career perhaps, we can all mostly agree he is closer to the HHOF than Tim Kerr and I don't even like the idea of Nieuwendyk in there in the first place. Turgeon had a better career than Brad Richards too by a bit. But in that 2nd paragraph he wasn't a better playoff performer than any of them on the list. The only reason they may have a lower PPG in the playoffs is because they peaked in some years and had less points in their earlier or later years.

It goes without saying that if two guys had nearly identical career playoff PPG (e.g., Middleton and Turgeon), and of them had a great playoff season (e.g., Middleton in 83) while the other did not,* then the other was more consistent.

Despite not having a Middleton-like 33 pts in 17 games in one playoff run, Turgeon still produced at an equal pace when you compare their entire playoff careers.

This is a re-hash of a discussion we had a couple years ago, but I prefer to look at the overall numbers, rather than slicing and dicing them.

And if you insist on slicing and dicing them, as you did two years ago, the evidence does not support the claim that he didn't step up in big games or shut down as the series progressed. His scoring pace was higher in games 4 to 7 than in games 1 to 3.


* As noted above Turgeon was on pace for a Middleton-like playoff run before the Hunter attack.
 
  • Like
Reactions: frisco

reckoning

Registered User
Jan 4, 2005
7,012
1,251
Turgeon's performance in the series against Washington is being overrated here.

He had 8 points in 6 games. A solid showing, but not anything extraordinary. Dale Hunter had 8 points in the same series. Ray Ferraro had 10.
 

Newsworthy

Registered User
Jan 28, 2018
4,253
982
USA
Smart for letting his teamates get double teamed while he sat?

We must have very different definitions of smart.

Perhaps you confused smart with selfish or cowardly?

Pierre Turgeon couldnt even protect himself; it's laughable to think he would have been able to protect someone else. I'm glad he exercised discretion and stuck with his beliefs rather than conforming to the norm. The smarter person walks away from confrontation before things spiral out of control. Someone could have been seriously injured. Things would have been a lot different if tragedy struck. Say If a player got knocked out and hit their head on the ice and died.
Are these hockey players waiting for this to happen?

People are killing Turgeon but all he did was turn the other cheek.

Why is this kind of behavior still acceptable in sports anyways?
Just watch as the refs couldn't control the fight as things dangerously escalated.
Surprised the fans didn't jump on the ice.

This brawl was a huge black eye. Pummeling a person while on the ground with multiple punches and cheap shots to the face isn't in Turgeon's repertoire. The most likely result would have been Turgeon getting hurt.

IMO those starting the fight are the cowards. This is hockey not bar room brawling.

Just my two cents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neutrinos

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
3,553
2,643
Northern Hemisphere
IMO those starting the fight are the cowards. This is hockey not bar room brawling.Just my two cents.
The morons on the Canadian team were in the biggest game of their life, with a chance to win a gold medal. Because some Ruskie looked at them the wrong way they thought the best course of action was not take some abuse for the team (as is done by every player ten times a game during the playoffs) but to start a brawl? They had the mentality of five year old bullies. So you got slashed. Suck it up and try to win the g-damn game instead of reacting like a petulant, selfish macho big shot. It was a disgrace. I'm with Cherry in saying the Soviets had the wherewithal to bait oafs like Sanipass and he reacted just like they thought he might. Didn't Templeton prepare the team for this possibility? And Fleury machine gunning the bench after a goal. Stay classy.

And I'm not a pacifist when it comes to fighting in hockey. What grinds my gears is the gullibility and stupidity of the Canadian team just throwing away a chance at a gold medal because they thought getting revenge for their own personal battles trumped the team's quest for glory. That's the ultimate of putting yourself ahead of the team and being a crappy teammate.

My Best-Carey
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Newsworthy

sandysan

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
24,834
6,388
Pierre Turgeon couldnt even protect himself; it's laughable to think he would have been able to protect someone else. I'm glad he exercised discretion and stuck with his beliefs rather than conforming to the norm. The smarter person walks away from confrontation before things spiral out of control. Someone could have been seriously injured. Things would have been a lot different if tragedy struck. Say If a player got knocked out and hit their head on the ice and died.
Are these hockey players waiting for this to happen?

People are killing Turgeon but all he did was turn the other cheek.

Why is this kind of behavior still acceptable in sports anyways?
Just watch as the refs couldn't control the fight as things dangerously escalated.
Surprised the fans didn't jump on the ice.

This brawl was a huge black eye. Pummeling a person while on the ground with multiple punches and cheap shots to the face isn't in Turgeon's repertoire. The most likely result would have been Turgeon getting hurt.

IMO those starting the fight are the cowards. This is hockey not bar room brawling.

Just my two cents.


did his hands work ? if the answer is yes, get you ass in the ice with your team, grab two big fistfulls of jersey and ensure that the guy you grab, isnt double teaming a guy with the same jersey you have on. you don't have to throw a single punch.

no one is asking him to throw ( although this is a possibility) but for gods sake square up and let the other people do the same.

if someone challenges you and you want to turn the other cheek, great. when its a bench clearing brawl and if your sitting on the bench while your teamates ( no matter how good they are) are getting doubled in a brawl. you are a crappy teamate. perhaps the crappiest of teamates.

canada has the international reputation of being nice and polite. I like this, we also largely live by the motto, " don't start nothing, won't be nothing"

hockey canada isn't anyone's soup can, we don't want to have to go, we would prefer not to go. but if you force us, we go. EVERY FREAKING player, we go.

except for cowards like turgeon,

and that right there is the problem,
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gold Standard

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->