Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

[frisco]

This is a really good time of year to be talking about Turgeon. For instance, when it is January it is a lot easier to look and say "Hey, he belongs in the HHOF, he has the points." But since we are all watching playoff hockey in April right now it just drills home the reason why Turgeon isn't in the HHOF..

At the risk of letting the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned slandering, Turgeon scored more playoff points than: Patrice Bergeron, Mats Sundin, The Sedins, Bobby Orr, Jeff Carter, Michel Goulet, Teemu Selanne, Corey Perry, Cam Neely, Pavel Bure, Butch Goring, Reggie Leach, Tim Kerr, Jerome Iginla, Pat LaFonatine among others.

On a points/game basis he's ahead of: Middleton, Kerr, Bobby Clarke, Cournoyer, Zetterberg, St.Louis, Iginla, Francis, Trottier, Alfredsson, Ratelle, Recchi, Joe Thornton, Elias, Marchand, Bergeron, Nieuwendyk, Shanahan, Hossa, Brad Richards, Datsyuk, Selanne, Toews, and many others.

My Best-Carey

 

[Albatros]

Yeah, Turgeon was fairly solid in the playoffs. Played for rubbish teams that rarely went past the first round, but that was rarely on him in particular.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah, Turgeon was fairly solid in the playoffs. Played for rubbish teams that rarely went past the first round, but that was rarely on him in particular.

well he played on teams that didn't have a chance in buffalo and the island, and he played on stacked teams too, in st louis. for a couple years he played on a team with hull, pronger, macinnis, a rejuvenated fuhr, and an emerging demitra, with playoff stud geoff courtnall and already selke calibre craig conroy, plus an annual assortment of veteran ringers.

 

[rfournier103]

I'd argue that it is more courageous to sit down. To choose not to brawl is also a display of sportsmanship.

And I’d argue that he was a putrid teammate to let Stephane Roy get beaten up by TWO opposing players.

Yep. Turgeon is a real hero. Left Roy to get pummeled. Tremendous sportsman.

 

[Mike8]

well he played on teams that didn't have a chance in buffalo and the island, and he played on stacked teams too, in st louis. for a couple years he played on a team with hull, pronger, macinnis, a rejuvenated fuhr, and an emerging demitra, with playoff stud geoff courtnall and already selke calibre craig conroy, plus an annual assortment of veteran ringers.

That Blues team competed and was good in the playoffs, though. And Turgeon performed pretty well.

In those years:

1997: Detroit (first round) - Detroit won championship
1998: Detroit (second round) - Detroit won championship
1999: Dallas (second round) - Dallas won championship
2000: Sharks (first round)
2001: Colorado (conference finals) - Colorado won championship

The only series the Blues came in as the favourite was San Jose, but that Sharks club was solid.

 

[frisco]

well he played on teams that didn't have a chance in buffalo and the island, and he played on stacked teams too, in st louis. for a couple years he played on a team with hull, pronger, macinnis, a rejuvenated fuhr, and an emerging demitra, with playoff stud geoff courtnall and already selke calibre craig conroy, plus an annual assortment of veteran ringers.

The Blues teams Turgeon played on had Pronger, an early 30's Hull for a few years who was later replaced by Demitra, mid-late 30's MacInnis and Fuhr. They were good teams but not stacked. The kept running into Detroit/Dallas/Colorado in that era--teams that were quite a bit better. Turgeon scored 45 points in 50 games for St.Louis over five seasons. Playoff stud Geoff Courtnall scored 7 goals in 46 playoff games with the Blues.

My Best-Carey

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'm just responding to the post i quoted that said turgeon played for "rubbish teams that rarely went past the first round." in fact he also played on strong, yes stacked, teams that routinely advanced past the first round. they even had a hall of fame, four time stanley cup winning coach.

and ftr, playoff stud geoff courtnall outscored turgeon in the playoffs in two out of three seasons they were teammates.

and also ftr, hull and demitra overlapped for those two years i referred to where macinnis, pronger, fuhr, conroy, and courtnall were all also there. the second season they also had steve duchesne. how did they not win games with their PP alone, with hull, macinnis, duchesne, turgeon, and demitra? but yes, detroit and colorado were more stacked.

(i was legitimately curious so i looked it up-- looks like their second unit, quarterbacked by pronger and todd gill, actually did more damage in the playoffs)

 

[Albatros]

The Blues had big names for sure, but also rather old, rejuvenated Fuhr too was already increasingly back to being done after his 1996 playoff knee injury. Pronger was pretty much the exception and that was not enough against the likes of Detroit and Colorado.

 

[Mike8]

i'm just responding to the post i quoted that said turgeon played for "rubbish teams that rarely went past the first round." in fact he also played on strong, yes stacked, teams that routinely advanced past the first round. they even had a hall of fame, four time stanley cup winning coach.

Yeah, I should have clarified in my post responding to you that I wasn't debating the thrust of your post -- more going in a totally different direction of looking at that Blues squad (and, if anything, substantiating your point that Turgeon played on a good team and performed well).

Those Blues/Stars/Avs/Wings series were terrific, in any event.

 

[Big Phil]

At the risk of letting the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned slandering, Turgeon scored more playoff points than: Patrice Bergeron, Mats Sundin, The Sedins, Bobby Orr, Jeff Carter, Michel Goulet, Teemu Selanne, Corey Perry, Cam Neely, Pavel Bure, Butch Goring, Reggie Leach, Tim Kerr, Jerome Iginla, Pat LaFonatine among others.

On a points/game basis he's ahead of: Middleton, Kerr, Bobby Clarke, Cournoyer, Zetterberg, St.Louis, Iginla, Francis, Trottier, Alfredsson, Ratelle, Recchi, Joe Thornton, Elias, Marchand, Bergeron, Nieuwendyk, Shanahan, Hossa, Brad Richards, Datsyuk, Selanne, Toews, and many others.

My Best-Carey

Is there a single playoff run he had that impresses you? Because he didn't have one. Those other names on your list did. For instance, the players he has more playoff points than there are some he had a better career than anyways, so let's just eliminate Carter, Goring, Perry, Leach, Kerr for sure. After that, can we have a little more context here? Saying he has more playoff points than Bobby Orr is very deceiving. Orr won the Conn Smythe twice and the sole reason Turgeon has more is that he played more playoff rounds and played longer than Orr. Turgeon had 97 points in 109 games. Orr had 92 points in 74 games. Even with the rest of them Iginla had a better career, as did Selanne, Goulet, Sundin. Neely was incredible in the playoffs on a PPG basis and is a little bit more than just points. The Sedins each have an Art Ross and in the case of Henrik, more than that. Bure and Lafontaine were better players than Turgeon, more explosive.

As for the players he has more PPG in the playoffs, let's use a bit of context there too. He literally has .01 PPG more than Middleton. Every single other one of those names, including Middleton, had a great playoff run, sometimes even a Conn Smythe. Zetterberg played in the postseason at a rate that Turgeon never dreamed of and even Marchand there is no way someone would want Turgeon over him when the chips are down. I don't think there is a single player you mentioned that Turgeon had a better playoff career than. Sometimes overall career perhaps, we can all mostly agree he is closer to the HHOF than Tim Kerr and I don't even like the idea of Nieuwendyk in there in the first place. Turgeon had a better career than Brad Richards too by a bit. But in that 2nd paragraph he wasn't a better playoff performer than any of them on the list. The only reason they may have a lower PPG in the playoffs is because they peaked in some years and had less points in their earlier or later years.

 

[ryerockarola]

Is there a single playoff run he had that impresses you? Because he didn't have one.

Who knows how good of a playoff run he would've had in 1993 had Dale Hunter not totally cheap-shotted him.

Ironically some people say that one cheap-shot by Hunter kept Hunter out of HHOF.

 

[frisco]

But in that 2nd paragraph he wasn't a better playoff performer than any of them on the list.

I'm just stating the facts. Turgeon had more points/game in the playoffs than guys like Zetterberg, Iginla, Marchand, Clarke, Selanne, St.Louis, Shanahan, Hossa, etc., This does not change regardless of how one feels about it. Yes, the players mentioned were pretty damn good in the playoffs, that's why I brought them into the discussion. The point of the post was not to downgrade Bryan Trottier or Toews or anybody. But to show that the much maligned Turgeon, when placed side by side with these guys in a purely objective fashion, actually outproduced them so that maybe, just maybe, his playoff accomplishments shouldn't be ridiculed.

My Best-Carey

 

[ryerockarola]

My bad. Assumed he played, damn how the hell did the Islanders win I'll never know.

Of all people Glenn Healey standing on his head facing a ton of rubber in game 7 had a lot to do with it.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Of all people Glenn Healey standing on his head facing a ton of rubber in game 7 had a lot to do with it.

from my memory, i would say healy was the biggest reason, then rookie kasparaitis doing a fantastic job on containing mario as much as peak mario could be contained, then tom fitzgerald in his first full season looking like a future selke guy, then ferraro and thomas stepping up bigtime to carry the offense over two different lines in turgeon’s absence.

 

[sandysan]

I think that one factor was that he didnt get off his ass in piestany and a lot of players looked down at it then and the same players have long memories. The other factor was that although he was good for some stretches, he was rarely much better than good.

I'd be surprised if he ever gets in, but I've been surprised before.

 

[sandysan]

I'd argue that it is more courageous to sit down. To choose not to brawl is also a display of sportsmanship.

not when your teamates are getting double teamed, its not.

if you don't want to fight even if guys are pressing the issue, that's your perogative. but when your team goes and you don't, that's something else entirely.

 

[Albatros]

not when your teamates are getting double teamed, its not.

His bonehead teammates threw away a gold medal duped by an opponent that had nothing left to play for.

 

[sandysan]

His bonehead teammates threw away a gold medal duped by an opponent that had nothing left to play for.

teamates being the operative word.

it's " if you go, we go" not " if they go, imma gonna sit on my ass and watch you get double teamed because of a gold medal they will never give me"

did turgeon think that by staying on the bench, that they would give him a gold medal ? once things get set into motion, you have to protect your teamates. you don't have to fight, hell lots of non pugilists will find someone similarly inclined and simply grab two handfulls of jersey and tie a guy up. maybe trade holiday stories. but if you don't do your part and a teamate gets doubled because of it, you are a crappy teamamte in a team sport.

 

[Albatros]

The crappy teammate was Sanipass for starting the mess, had more players followed Turgeon there would have been no disqualification.

 

[ryerockarola]

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/don-cherry-on-the-1987-world-junior-hockey-brawl

 

[sandysan]

The crappy teammate was Sanipass for starting the mess, had more players followed Turgeon there would have been no disqualification.

Yeah and the players on the ice could have been triple or quadruple teamed.

If you don't want to be the first over the boards? Fine by me. Hell you can be the last one over the boards.

What you can't do is sit on your ass as your teamates get doubled. You don't want to throw? Fine but grab someone and square up.

Turgeon SAW guys wearing the same jersey as he was and decided he was okay with that.

That makes him a crappy teamate and I hope he likes the bed he made.

 

[Albatros]

Yeah and the players on the ice could have been triple or quadruple teamed.

No one forced anyone to fight, it was not a Soviet assault on Canadian players but total idiocy initiated by Sanipass and Fleury. Had the coaching staff intervened it would have stayed at that. Instead, they gave the Soviets a perfect opportunity to sabotage any Canadian chances of winning.

Turgeon SAW guys wearing the same jersey as he was and decided he was okay with that.

That makes him a crappy teamate and I hope he likes the bed he made.

I'm sure Sanipass thinks so, after his own illustrious career in the NHL. And I'm also pretty sure the feeling is mutual, it's not like Turgeon has changed his view either. Generally speaking this idea of fighting as a part of some sort of misguided code of honor was definitely more prevalent in the 1980s than it is today, at some point the likes of Don Cherry will inevitably be obsolete if they are not already. It won't be what keeps Turgeon out of HHoF.

 

[JackSlater]

No one forced anyone to fight, it was not a Soviet assault on Canadian players but total idiocy initiated by Sanipass and Fleury. Had the coaching staff intervened it would have stayed at that. Instead, they gave the Soviets a perfect opportunity to sabotage any Canadian chances of winning.



I'm sure Sanipass thinks so, after his own illustrious career in the NHL. And I'm also pretty sure the feeling is mutual, it's not like Turgeon has changed his view either. Generally speaking this idea of fighting as a part of some sort of misguided code of honor was definitely more prevalent in the 1980s than it is today, at some point the likes of Don Cherry will inevitably be obsolete if they are not already. It won't be what keeps Turgeon out of HHoF.

This is nonsense. The Soviet players jumped over the boards first, so saying that Fleury or Senipass initiated it is a lie, and once the benches had cleared there was no good reason for Turgeon to stay off the ice. It isn't what keeps him out of the hall of fame but it is a bit embarrassing for him. The best defence for him is that he was only 17 but even that's pretty weak since the basic expectation would only be to get on the ice and square up with some other guy who also probably didn't want to fight.

 

[Albatros]

According to Hans Rønning, the referee that day:

"It was the Canadians who left the bench first, it was their fault that the fight happened. They started it. And I have no idea why when they still had a chance at the gold medal."

 

[ryerockarola]

According to Hans Rønning, the referee that day:

"It was the Canadians who left the bench first, it was their fault that the fight happened. They started it. And I have no idea why when they still had a chance at the gold medal."

BS. That ref never reffed another international game and had no business reffing that one.

Listen to Cherry and Farber discuss it the day after it happened and even Farber whos arguing against the Canadians fighting and blamed the Canadian coach admitted the Russians came off their bench first, four of them