Why is Mike Babcock being made the scapegoat for the Maple Leaf's problems?

[alg363636]

Sometimes you need a shake up. I remember being opposed to the Bruins firing Julien - I thought our roster was mediocre and he was doing the best he could. Bring in Cassidy and 3 we are a significantly better team because of it. Clode was a great coach but 10 years later the team needed a new voice.

That being said it's always easier to blame the coach then to address a flawed team. As much as Cassidy helped Bruins also have shaken their team up a fair amount and had exceptional performances from prospects/young players. While Cassidy helped them grow I think we're also a much better team than we were when Julien left.

Basically what I'm saying is firing Babcock will probably help, at least temporarily. New system, new voice - the players will respond well. However the Leafs have some issues that clearly need to be addressed by the GM - better defense, better back up goaltending, better depth.

I think they should fire him but if fans think that will fix all their problems I think they will be disappointed.

 

[rboomercat90]

Babcock is a very good coach if you have established superstars on your team that have a humble attitude along with a winning team culture with actual experience. But if you have a young inexperienced lineup, good luck with that, he's definitely not the best coach for developing talent.

It’s amazing to me how similar Mike Babcock and Todd Mclellan are. What you’re saying here and most of Leafs fans complaints about Babcock are the same things I spent the final year and a half of Mclellan’s tenure in Edmonton saying about him. They’re both extremely over-rated in that they built their reputations on riding stacked rosters as long as they could. To make matters worse they’re both stubborn as hell and refuse to adapt when things aren’t working. They don’t fix issues they compound them.

That said, Babcock is just a symptom of the real problem here. The root of the Leafs problem is Shanahan. He’s the guy that let Lamoriello go at the worst possible time. Lou should have been kept around long enough to negotiate the extensions for Nylander, Mathews and Marner. He could have set the future of the team up and then rode off into the sunset. Dubas could have come in at that point and reaped the rewards and they all could have looked like heroes. Instead he let the inexperienced kid come in at the most crucial time, let him sign an expensive forward they didn’t need to fast track the rebuild and throw the salary structure out of whack and screwed everything up.

Babcock as coach isn’t working and it’ll have to be dealt with at some point, if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem. Just remember though, he’s only a small part of the problem. There’s a lot more than the coach that needs to be addressed.

 

[BHD]

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You're right, it's not entirely true and there are plenty of scenarios where it's best to skip one step or reverse the order a little. Good on Rutherford for sticking with his guy and finding success, by no means do I think that there's a set in stone way of doing things. Perhaps overhauling the Leafs roster and keeping Babcock is the ideal way forward, but I think there's a mountain of evidence against Babcock and he doesn't have anywhere near the level of success with the core players that Sullivan did. There's a real difference between sticking with the guy that won you two cups as recently as two years ago and sticking with a guy who hasn't won squat with your team.

I guess the question Dubas/Shanahan have to ask themselves before firing Babcock is, have they looked at all avenues of improving the roster before deciding it's the coach? I honestly don't know. Maybe Babcock should be canned this second. But as someone who was very vocal about Sullivan needing to go last year, and obviously being wrong about that, I know how much being a fan can cloud ones judgement when it comes to coach-blaming for poor player effort.

What if it's the core that's rotten? Or certain pieces of the core? Or even the depth guys and not having the right mix? Would the Leafs look this bad if Dubas re-tooled some of the depth surrounding their core? Would the Leafs look this bad if Dubas swapped out one of the core pieces who may feel complacent (ie. maybe a Nylander swap)? Again, not saying that IS the answer. But I think it's one of the things the GM needs to look at first with a struggling club than instantly firing the coach and believing the new guy can eliminate every bad habit the Leafs have.

 

[LeafGrief]

I guess the question Dubas/Shanahan have to ask themselves before firing Babcock is, have they looked at all avenues of improving the roster before deciding it's the coach? I honestly don't know. Maybe Babcock should be canned this second. But as someone who was very vocal about Sullivan needing to go last year, and obviously being wrong about that, I know how much being a fan can cloud ones judgement when it comes to coach-blaming for poor player effort.

What if it's the core that's rotten? Or certain pieces of the core? Or even the depth guys and not having the right mix? Would the Leafs look this bad if Dubas re-tooled some of the depth surrounding their core? Would the Leafs look this bad if Dubas swapped out one of the core pieces who may feel complacent (ie. maybe a Nylander swap)? Again, not saying that IS the answer. But I think it's one of the things the GM needs to look at first with a struggling club than instantly firing the coach and believing the new guy can eliminate every bad habit the Leafs have.

Truth of the matter is that the core or some pieces could be rotten. But we are very different than you guys in that your management's confidence in the coach was rightfully much higher. Babcock has that impressive resume, but hanging onto him is not nearly the same level of priority as holding on to the coach that just won you a pair of cups with that core. At this point if we fired Babcock and then ultimately discovered that the core itself had major issues then I don't think that many of us would lose sleep about Babcock as collateral damage.

In the past calendar year the Leafs have switched four of their top six defensemen. The entire bottom six is different, with the exceptions of Gauthier and Kapanen. We've retooled big and small pieces to try and find the answer, so I feel as if that avenue has already been exhausted. Short of a trading one of the big 4 forwards or Rielly, I don't think there's much more we can do. While we don't have near the same degree of success that your Penguins have had, a pair of 100 point seasons prove that the core itself is at least okay and far better than they've been playing. I agree that the GM should look to re-jig some of the players before looking to fire the GM but they've already done that. The new guy won't fix every ailment the Leafs have, I don't expect that for a second, but I do expect the new guy to help make those problems clear. I would much rather they do that than just start blindly trading players and maybe lose a deal on a key piece.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

As a Wings fan Babcock is overrated. Detroit fan base warned Leafs what to expect but got laughed at saying we were bitter and angry because he left. Good riddance.

I always felt this way too, but since Shanahan hired him (after having been coached by him) I just figured I had no idea what I was talking about and maybe he's really good behind the scenes.

I think the current Maple Leafs woes are due to a combination of their 'generational talents' not actually being generational, Babs being overrated as a coach and the evil hex put on the Maple Leafs in 1967 that led to league expansion and Harold Ballard taking over the team.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Truth of the matter is that the core or some pieces could be rotten. But we are very different than you guys in that your management's confidence in the coach was rightfully much higher. Babcock has that impressive resume, but hanging onto him is not nearly the same level of priority as holding on to the coach that just won you a pair of cups with that core. At this point if we fired Babcock and then ultimately discovered that the core itself had major issues then I don't think that many of us would lose sleep about Babcock as collateral damage.

In the past calendar year the Leafs have switched four of their top six defensemen. The entire bottom six is different, with the exceptions of Gauthier and Kapanen. We've retooled big and small pieces to try and find the answer, so I feel as if that avenue has already been exhausted. Short of a trading one of the big 4 forwards or Rielly, I don't think there's much more we can do. While we don't have near the same degree of success that your Penguins have had, a pair of 100 point seasons prove that the core itself is at least okay and far better than they've been playing. I agree that the GM should look to re-jig some of the players before looking to fire the GM but they've already done that. The new guy won't fix every ailment the Leafs have, I don't expect that for a second, but I do expect the new guy to help make those problems clear. I would much rather they do that than just start blindly trading players and maybe lose a deal on a key piece.

If they do fire him, it'll be interesting to see who the replacement is. Obviously they'll look for a long-term solution, but will they do that right away or wait until the off-season when there's potentially more options available? Riding with Hakstol as the interim head coach could make Leaf fans wish the season was already over.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Truth of the matter is that the core or some pieces could be rotten. But we are very different than you guys in that your management's confidence in the coach was rightfully much higher. Babcock has that impressive resume, but hanging onto him is not nearly the same level of priority as holding on to the coach that just won you a pair of cups with that core. At this point if we fired Babcock and then ultimately discovered that the core itself had major issues then I don't think that many of us would lose sleep about Babcock as collateral damage.

In the past calendar year the Leafs have switched four of their top six defensemen. The entire bottom six is different, with the exceptions of Gauthier and Kapanen. We've retooled big and small pieces to try and find the answer, so I feel as if that avenue has already been exhausted. Short of a trading one of the big 4 forwards or Rielly, I don't think there's much more we can do. While we don't have near the same degree of success that your Penguins have had, a pair of 100 point seasons prove that the core itself is at least okay and far better than they've been playing. I agree that the GM should look to re-jig some of the players before looking to fire the GM but they've already done that. The new guy won't fix every ailment the Leafs have, I don't expect that for a second, but I do expect the new guy to help make those problems clear. I would much rather they do that than just start blindly trading players and maybe lose a deal on a key piece.

I don't understand this logic.

1. The changes were not some attempt to re-tool. The changes were necessary due to the massive new contracts to Nylander, Marner and Matthews.
2. Why does Babcock get zero credit for the pair of 100 point seasons? Did he suddenly change his system and stopped coaching?

I think in the quest to "we can and we will" sign the RFAs, Dubas hurt the balance of his team and made Babcock's job much more difficult. If anyone should go, it should be Dubas first and give Babcock a GM that help retool the team.

 

[vanarchy]

You have to consider the possibility that the Wings were a great team and probably propped him up for years. Especially after his playing time decisions with the Leafs.

I don't think he's a bad coach and I think the problems are more complex than presented. But, I think he's overrated.

 

[Coffey]

Dubas didn't build a team for Babcock to run.
He'll be gone soon for a coach that can deploy uptempo offensive plays.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

Dubas might be hesitant to fire Babcock for one simple reason. Once the coach is gone, Dubas is the next one on the hot seat. Without Babcock, Dubas will bring in his own coach, and if the team doesn’t respond, he has no more cards left to play

 

[hockeyisgud]

Dubas might be hesitant to fire Babcock for one simple reason. Once the coach is gone, Dubas is the next one on the hot seat. Without Babcock, Dubas will bring in his own coach, and if the team doesn’t respond, he has no more cards left to play

ding ding ding

 

[aufheben]

I don't understand this logic.

1. The changes were not some attempt to re-tool. The changes were necessary due to the massive new contracts to Nylander, Marner and Matthews.
2. Why does Babcock get zero credit for the pair of 100 point seasons? Did he suddenly change his system and stopped coaching?

I think in the quest to "we can and we will" sign the RFAs, Dubas hurt the balance of his team and made Babcock's job much more difficult. If anyone should go, it should be Dubas first and give Babcock a GM that help retool the team.

Here are the Leafs shot rates for the 2016-2020, as well as their projected 2019-20 shot rates from September. So, yes it looks like things have changed.

2016-17

2017-18

2018-19

2019-20

2019-20 Projected

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Here are the Leafs shot rates for the last three seasons, as well as their projected 2019-20 shot rates from September. So, yes it looks like things have changed.

Has he come out and stated that?

 

[PumpkinBombX]

It’s amazing to me how similar Mike Babcock and Todd Mclellan are. What you’re saying here and most of Leafs fans complaints about Babcock are the same things I spent the final year and a half of Mclellan’s tenure in Edmonton saying about him. They’re both extremely over-rated in that they built their reputations on riding stacked rosters as long as they could. To make matters worse they’re both stubborn as hell and refuse to adapt when things aren’t working. They don’t fix issues they compound them.

That said, Babcock is just a symptom of the real problem here. The root of the Leafs problem is Shanahan. He’s the guy that let Lamoriello go at the worst possible time. Lou should have been kept around long enough to negotiate the extensions for Nylander, Mathews and Marner. He could have set the future of the team up and then rode off into the sunset. Dubas could have come in at that point and reaped the rewards and they all could have looked like heroes. Instead he let the inexperienced kid come in at the most crucial time, let him sign an expensive forward they didn’t need to fast track the rebuild and throw the salary structure out of whack and screwed everything up.

Babcock as coach isn’t working and it’ll have to be dealt with at some point, if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem. Just remember though, he’s only a small part of the problem. There’s a lot more than the coach that needs to be addressed.

I think so too.

Mclellan expected the entire team to play a certain way and only a few players were capable. He couldn't juggle lines, he couldn't do matchups. You'd see a player on the ice in the last minute that shouldn't be.
It's weird because in 16-17 the Oilers had a top 3 break-out in the league in spite of not very good puck support.

You really notice it with Tippet. He expects the entire team to play the same way away from the puck, but its a way every player is capable of playing, as there is tons of puck support. He's great at matchups, and reading his bench or shuffling guys to get them going. I especially like that sometimes moving down the lineup isn't viewed as a demotion, but rather to balance a line, to exploit a matchup, or to get another player going. It's so good at building a room.

Babcock, like TMac, expects everyone to play to a standard away and with the puck beyond what they are capable of with the exception of maybe Tavares. He's also stubborn and petty like TMac is.

 

[aufheben]

Has he come out and stated that?

They made coaching changes during the summer and the shot rates which were identical for three consecutive seasons now look completely different. They lost to Boston in the first round twice in row, now they're trying something different.

 

[crobro]

The best for the leafs coaching job has to be Marc Crawford

Works well with Young players
Prefers and uptempo offense
Has a history with Austin Matthews.

 

[LeafGrief]

If they do fire him, it'll be interesting to see who the replacement is. Obviously they'll look for a long-term solution, but will they do that right away or wait until the off-season when there's potentially more options available? Riding with Hakstol as the interim head coach could make Leaf fans wish the season was already over.

The expectation is that they'll promote the current Marlies head coach, Sheldon Keefe. He and Dubas go all the way back to the OHL and the assumption is that he is Kyle's guy. I certainly hope they don't go with Hakstol as the interim, the hope is to still salvage the season. Ideally Keefe is ready to go and they can get the big club humming. With two teams in the last four years having fired their coach and won the cup the same season, the Leafs are certainly not ready to call the season a total write-off. Different scenarios of course, but we're not looking to waste a year when we were hoping to contend or at least win a round.

I don't understand this logic.

1. The changes were not some attempt to re-tool. The changes were necessary due to the massive new contracts to Nylander, Marner and Matthews.
2. Why does Babcock get zero credit for the pair of 100 point seasons? Did he suddenly change his system and stopped coaching?

I think in the quest to "we can and we will" sign the RFAs, Dubas hurt the balance of his team and made Babcock's job much more difficult. If anyone should go, it should be Dubas first and give Babcock a GM that help retool the team.

1) You're right, the changes weren't an attempt to re-tool and were necessary because of the contracts. But the point stands that how much more retooling around the edges and on defense can actually be done? They've replaced just about every single depth player and 4/6 defenders, so until they hold their noses and make a blockbuster trade they've tried just about everything. Re-jigging the bottom six and the defense again is just running around in circles doing the same thing over again and hoping for new results. Perhaps they should make a blockbuster trade, but I'm hoping that they attempt a new coach first.

2) I never said that Babcock has been awful his entire tenure. For example, the Leafs were fantastic in his second year with all the rookies and going to the playoffs against Washington. Babcock was a part of those 100 point teams, but coaches have expiration dates. I think this is a rather strange point, since even Quenville and Sutter were fired after winning three and two cups with their teams. Even great coaches have their messages get stale and sometimes switching the guy out is the jolt that players need to get their butts in gear. Those players deserve criticism, but it's still the step to take.

Furthermore, the system has changed and where things were once dominant they have fallen flat. A great example is the Leafs powerplay, which has gone from 2nd in the league in 17-18 to 8th in 18-19, to 21st today. The PK has gotten worse as well. The Leafs were playing a lot of run and gun to start last year but switched to more defensive low event hockey I think around February and they've been mediocre to dismal ever since.

As to firing the GM first, it's possible, but the coach has to go too. I think just about anyone with an objective eye can see that the Leafs roster is not terrible and should at least be making the playoffs. If there's enough good players and they're not getting it done, the coach is the guy who gets blamed for that. Perhaps balance is a problem in team construction, but that's a problem that prevents a good team from being elite, or an elite team from winning it all. Balance does not make a team suddenly suck ass in the regular season. HFboards has been pointing out that the Leafs are imbalanced for years. We've been soft as hell since Burke and our defense has been bad pretty much my entire life. Balance is not what turned a 100 point playoff team into an 80 point suck fest.

 

[The Big Unit]

Games in hand aside, the Leafs are 2 points out of a playoff spot. Teams lose their stars to injuries, go through losing streaks and fans and the media panic, then they get healthy and string a few wins together and suddenly the coach and GM are geniuses. Toronto just needs to be patient for now. This is a good roster, they should figure it out. I'd wait till Christmas to re-evaluate unless things really go off the rails.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Dubas might be hesitant to fire Babcock for one simple reason. Once the coach is gone, Dubas is the next one on the hot seat. Without Babcock, Dubas will bring in his own coach, and if the team doesn’t respond, he has no more cards left to play

I think both Dubas and Shanahan will both be on the hot seat. The new coach will be ultimately be chosen by Shanahan not Dubas in my opinion. I don't think Dubas would be able to hire a coach without Shanahan signing off on it. Shanahan would have to go to the board to explain eating the millions left on Babcock's contract, and then approve of the new coach. I wouldn't say Keefe would be a slam dunk choice either. Hakstoll has NHL experience, they may just appoint him the interim coach and ride out the year where a proper search can take place this summer.

 

[stampedingviking]

Again that is 100% on Babcock.

He continues to insist that the backup goalie gets the second game of a back to back, every single time.

So the backup goalie gets a tired team in front of him, every single time.

In the rookie Kaskisuo's case, unfortunately, the game was also on the road. He was screwed over before the opening faceoff.

The Pens were missing Crosby and Letang, there was absolutely no reason for the Leafs to capitulate as they did.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The Pens were missing Crosby and Letang, there was absolutely no reason for the Leafs to capitulate as they did.

And Hornqvist. And Bjugstad. And started Jarry. And traveled home late after a game in New Jersey the night before.

There was no excuse for one team to be more "tired" than the other, nor was there any injury excuse.

 

[koyvoo]

Games in hand aside, the Leafs are 2 points out of a playoff spot. Teams lose their stars to injuries, go through losing streaks and fans and the media panic, then they get healthy and string a few wins together and suddenly the coach and GM are geniuses. Toronto just needs to be patient for now. This is a good roster, they should figure it out. I'd wait till Christmas to re-evaluate unless things really go off the rails.

They’re also just 6 points above last place in the entire league, and as you mention, the team’s below them have games in hand.

It’s not only an issue of have a bad opening quarter to the season. They’ve been mediocre for almost a full calendar year now. They already need a really good record over the last 60 games remaining (something like 38-22) to hit the points numbers usually accumulated by the wild card seeds.

 

[Rehabguy]

I don't understand this logic.

1. The changes were not some attempt to re-tool. The changes were necessary due to the massive new contracts to Nylander, Marner and Matthews.
2. Why does Babcock get zero credit for the pair of 100 point seasons? Did he suddenly change his system and stopped coaching?

I think in the quest to "we can and we will" sign the RFAs, Dubas hurt the balance of his team and made Babcock's job much more difficult. If anyone should go, it should be Dubas first and give Babcock a GM that help retool the team.

Exactly!

This is a proven coach who led this team to a 105 point season (the highest in franchise history) within 2 years of taking over the reigns. Now his ideas are outdated.

Get a clue folks. What happened is once all these guys got paid they pulled out the lawn chairs and lost all motivation to work for a living. The top players are gutless wonders.

 

[stampedingviking]

Isn't Babcock considered a hard ass, and one of the reasons they started to tune him out? Not sure these players would respond to a Torts yelling at them if Babcock being strict makes them pout.

Would be really fun to watch, though.