Why is Mike Babcock being made the scapegoat for the Maple Leaf's problems?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rehabguy

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
5,007
1,877
I wish people would stop using his success in Detroit. When he got that job he inherited an amazingly talented team. A monkey could have coached that team. He got over 500 of those wins coaching a stacked Red Wings team. So how good is he really? 200 wins coaching Ducks and Leafs.

He reminds me of Bernie Nichols. Year before Gretzky he had 32 goals. Gretzky got there and he scored 70. The next year he had 39.

Coaching and playing on a stacked team affects stats. Those are the facts. How would Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Chelios, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler, Kronwall, look in a Leafs uniform. He has 9 superstars on that team.

Ken Holland built that team from 97 on and if anyone deserves that cup win it is him and not Babcock. Like I said, A monkey could have coached that team with all those stars on it. Plus they had a great group of secondary players to back them up. They were big, talented and scary. And going into Detroit for a game was almost a guaranteed loss.

Babcock just isn't that good. Plus another thing, he inherited Scotty Bowmans system. It was a great system 15 years ago, but he game has changed and Babcock has not changed. Also there are a few players now saying the players hated him in Detroit.

So we need to learn the facts about this clown.
The facts about this clown is just as with every other team he has coached he has made them into winners. Before he took over this team the team was one of the worse teams in hockey. He went from averaging 69 points a season to 95, then 105, and then 100 points. The 105 was a franchise record yet you and a bunch of other Leafs fans think someone else could have done better? Are you kidding me? You hit a little rut in the road and all of a sudden it's the smartest guy in the room's fault?
 

member 300185

Guest
The facts about this clown is just as with every other team he has coached he has made them into winners. Before he took over this team the team was one of the worse teams in hockey. He went from averaging 69 points a season to 95, then 105, and then 100 points. The 105 was a franchise record yet you and a bunch of other Leafs fans think someone else could have done better? Are you kidding me? You hit a little rut in the road and all of a sudden it's the smartest guy in the room's fault?
Yup, sure and don't forget that Matthews and Marner joined the team and signed JT last year. Come on man, he is not the smartest guy in the room.
 

Makar Goes Fast

grocery stick
Aug 17, 2012
12,602
4,219
downtown poundtown
truth is babcock was hired and is paid to take the leafs to the next level. he has not done that. obviously there are other things going on but thats the black and white of Babcock's time in toronto.
 

Rich247

Registered User
Sep 28, 2014
182
22
Yup, sure and don't forget that Matthews and Marner joined the team and signed JT last year. Come on man, he is not the smartest guy in the room.
Babcock hand picked some of the players like the goat and nick shore over others. Still hasn't learn that the goats potential we have been hearing about for four years now never seems a get there. A forth line of engvall, bracco, and timo could add more than the present forth line, but Babcock will stay with them just because he picked them. His inability to admit he is wrong about certain players is going to get him fired. Tell me why with mariner out he hasn't brought up bracco to run the power play. In his mind the kid is not an nhler and will never be promoted as long as Babcock can't change his attitude of always being right. Don't really see how bracco could do worse than nick shore, and engvall is a much better player than the goat. Will he ever admit he was wrong on the players he hand picked. Bracco leads the scoring in almost everywhere he has played and engvall looks super as a center. Babcock please get your head out of your a** or go retire somewhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NovaLeaf

Phil120362

Registered User
Dec 29, 2018
833
325
He's one of the most successful coaches in North American Hockey, the coach who holds the record for most wins as the Red Wings coach, numerous Stanley Cup Finals appearances, and took the Red Wings to the playoffs every year he was coach there. Within 2 years of taking over the reigns in Toronto he brought the team to its highest points total in franchise history. The problem with the Leafs appear to be gutless, heartless, spoiled young players and an inexperienced foolish GM. Sad that he's being made the scapegoat. I think they are doing him a favor if they were to let him go.
because it's easier to fire one coach as opposed to 23 "skaters".....
 

Dondini

Registered User
Apr 28, 2010
3,367
2,811
Everyone blames Dubas on the nylander deal. While not great I blame the Matthews deal. Signed him to early to that 11.6 mill contract. If they waited it out I think they could have got him at 10 and marner around 9. I mean it doesn’t sound like much but it’s almost a 4 mill difference.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Matthews and Marner have the 13th and 14th most TOI among forwards in the NHL. Babcock plays his stallions as much as seems reasonable to do. You flagged a game where usage was off at the margins.

That has zero to do with what I was saying - what I was saying is that Babs is terrible at distributing ice time within a game. He plays some players far too much over periods of time and other players far too little over the same period of time. He doesn't have his best players out at the most important times. He gets so hung up on line matching that he doesn't know what is going on. I have posted examples over the past couple seasons of just completely mindboggling bizarre usage - like examples where over a 10 or 13 minute period of time a player like Matthews will get 20 - 40 seconds of ice time (usually around 3 or 4 shifts that are 10 - 12 seconds or less each) because Babs is so obsessed with his hard line match that other coaches take advantage of his obsession and put the player or line Babs is trying to match, say Kadri's line against, on the second Matthews is on the ice.

He yanked Tavares' line off the ice immediately upon the first faceoff of game 2 in the last playoff series and then threw them back on again 10 seconds later showing the players on both teams that the Bruins were in charge of when leafs players would go on and off the ice and that Babs had no confidence in his team being able to go up against the Bruins, despite the Leafs easily winning game 1. They got trounced in game 2, and it was obvious that Babs had set the tone of defeatism right off the bat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Monsieur Gustave H

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
The facts about this clown is just as with every other team he has coached he has made them into winners. Before he took over this team the team was one of the worse teams in hockey. He went from averaging 69 points a season to 95, then 105, and then 100 points. The 105 was a franchise record yet you and a bunch of other Leafs fans think someone else could have done better? Are you kidding me? You hit a little rut in the road and all of a sudden it's the smartest guy in the room's fault?

You better start canvasing your team to hire him when the Leafs' fire him.
 

TheDoldrums

Registered User
May 3, 2016
12,154
18,137
Kanada
This is how signing big contracts causes a team to underperform. It's a poorly constructed team by Dubas of underperforming players with an obvious lack of chemistry.

These are coaching issues. When the GM gives you Tyson Barrie and as a coach you turn him into a guy on pace for 19 points, you aren't getting the best out of your talent.
 

Apotheosis

Registered User
Mar 27, 2014
11,605
5,140
Toronto, Ontario
not a huge fan of babcock but name a coach in the NHL that has consistently made playoffs with his team like Babcock did with the wings.

Making the playoffs is not easy
Then winning in the playoffs is even harder

I can't remember a coach in recent memory that consistently made the playoffs with his team; closest I can think of is Q; but even Quenneville eventually could not get hawks to the playoffs for his entire tenure.

LOL at people blaming solely Babcock. Does he has is warts; hell yes
Am I a babcock fan? Hell no; guy is an egomaniac; but he gets the job done

Dubas is a bigger JOKE than any GM I have ever seen; guy put 50% of the cap on 4 players; team have defensive issue not offensive and required a quality back-up goalie (did not address any of it) AND on top of that is trying to do something that has never been done in the history of NHL

On top of that guy became a GM with team on the rise and plenty of cap space; within 2 years he has completely ****ed up the cap and ruined team composition with no balance at all

**** Dubas

I am absolutely Frustrated Leafs Fan

If he failed to make the playoffs with prime Dats and Henrik AND Lidstrom when he hit his Norris stride, then that would be even more sad. Babcock is a far bigger problem than Dubas.
 

Rehabguy

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
5,007
1,877
Yup, sure and don't forget that Matthews and Marner joined the team and signed JT last year. Come on man, he is not the smartest guy in the room.
So which brilliant coach do you replace him with? And I suppose this new coach must show win after win after win and no failures for you guys to be happy.
 

Martin Skoula

Registered User
Oct 18, 2017
11,639
16,315
So which brilliant coach do you replace him with? And I suppose this new coach must show win after win after win and no failures for you guys to be happy.

No, he just has to learn from his mistakes and adapt to fit the strengths of the team. That's all we're asking for.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Everyone blames Dubas on the nylander deal. While not great I blame the Matthews deal. Signed him to early to that 11.6 mill contract. If they waited it out I think they could have got him at 10 and marner around 9. I mean it doesn’t sound like much but it’s almost a 4 mill difference.

There is zero chance that the Leafs' could have got Matthews for 10 (Eichel got 10 two years prior and Matthews had a ridiculously better ELC than Eichel) and probably no chance they could have got Marner for 9 either.

The Leafs' had no leverage with Matthews (who hates Babcock and who would have signed an OS - Bettman's wet dream would be Matthews going to Arizona as the first home grown star from the state and the team had been acquired by a new billionaire owner months before Matthews would have become an RFA) and not a ton of leverage with Marner (who had some long-standing grievances - some very legit, and some not so - against the Leafs' management and coach - Marner was refused the schedule B bonuses that every player drafted in his position gets, and Marner, like Nylander, was often bumped down the lineup - including to the fourth line whenever he did anything that displeased Babcock, while veteran players could play terrible for weeks at a time without facing any consequences).

The Leafs' overpayments and contract problems are actually a good cautionary tale of what happens when you draft high end talent and then are pricks to that high end talent during their ELCs. This was something I talked about frequently over the last two summers and was a major reason why I believe the Leafs moved from Lou to Dubas when they did - in the hope that it would reduce the animosity from the camps of all three young players towards Lou and the Leafs' organization. I think that if the Leafs' had fired Babcock would have been able to get Matthews for a better deal than they did (there was still more than 4 years on Babcock's contract when Matthews signed - if you think Matthews was going to give the Leafs' a discount to play the rest of the best years of his career for a coach he hates I think you live in a fantasy land - although at the time much of the fanbase was still denying that the obvious animosity even existed), but Marner's camp was out for blood - and they made clear that the Leafs' were going to pay for his past mistreatment including compensation for those denied schedule B bonuses.
 
Oct 18, 2011
44,064
9,673
He's one of the most successful coaches in North American Hockey, the coach who holds the record for most wins as the Red Wings coach, numerous Stanley Cup Finals appearances, and took the Red Wings to the playoffs every year he was coach there. Within 2 years of taking over the reigns in Toronto he brought the team to its highest points total in franchise history. The problem with the Leafs appear to be gutless, heartless, spoiled young players and an inexperienced foolish GM. Sad that he's being made the scapegoat. I think they are doing him a favor if they were to let him go.
Because he is unable to adjust his style to coach the roster he has

Conversely the GM has built a team that his coach doesn't fit into how he wants to play

Something has to give
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,519
46,242
There is zero chance that the Leafs' could have got Matthews for 10 (Eichel got 10 two years prior and Matthews had a ridiculously better ELC than Eichel) and probably no chance they could have got Marner for 9 either.

The Leafs' had no leverage with Matthews (who hates Babcock and who would have signed an OS - Bettman's wet dream would be Matthews going to Arizona as the first home grown star from the state and the team had been acquired by a new billionaire owner months before Matthews would have become an RFA) and not a ton of leverage with Marner (who had some long-standing grievances - some very legit, and some not so - against the Leafs' management and coach - Marner was refused the schedule B bonuses that every player drafted in his position gets, and Marner, like Nylander, was often bumped down the lineup - including to the fourth line whenever he did anything that displeased Babcock, while veteran players could play terrible for weeks at a time without facing any consequences).

The Leafs' overpayments and contract problems are actually a good cautionary tale of what happens when you draft high end talent and then are pricks to that high end talent during their ELCs. This was something I talked about frequently over the last two summers and was a major reason why I believe the Leafs moved from Lou to Dubas when they did - in the hope that it would reduce the animosity from the camps of all three young players towards Lou and the Leafs' organization. I think that if the Leafs' had fired Babcock would have been able to get Matthews for a better deal than they did (there was still more than 4 years on Babcock's contract when Matthews signed - if you think Matthews was going to give the Leafs' a discount to play the rest of the best years of his career for a coach he hates I think you live in a fantasy land - although at the time much of the fanbase was still denying that the obvious animosity even existed), but Marner's camp was out for blood - and they made clear that the Leafs' were going to pay for his past mistreatment including compensation for those denied schedule B bonuses.

Is the talk of Matthews hating Babcock true (ie. legit articles mentioning it), or is it rumor based on "HF board poster heard from a friend who knows someone who works for the team" type word of mouth coupled with speculation about why Babcock went to Arizona to meet with Matthews? Honestly curious.
 

Westlander

the olden time
Aug 31, 2004
721
207
The Netherlands
not a huge fan of babcock but name a coach in the NHL that has consistently made playoffs with his team like Babcock did with the wings.

Making the playoffs is not easy
Then winning in the playoffs is even harder

I can't remember a coach in recent memory that consistently made the playoffs with his team; closest I can think of is Q; but even Quenneville eventually could not get hawks to the playoffs for his entire tenure.

LOL at people blaming solely Babcock. Does he has is warts; hell yes
Am I a babcock fan? Hell no; guy is an egomaniac; but he gets the job done

Dubas is a bigger JOKE than any GM I have ever seen; guy put 50% of the cap on 4 players; team have defensive issue not offensive and required a quality back-up goalie (did not address any of it) AND on top of that is trying to do something that has never been done in the history of NHL

On top of that guy became a GM with team on the rise and plenty of cap space; within 2 years he has completely ****ed up the cap and ruined team composition with no balance at all

**** Dubas

I am absolutely Frustrated Leafs Fan

The problem is Babcock isn't getting the job done anymore, it's year 5 for him and he's had his shot for just about long enough. There has been no progress as far as end results for the last two seasons and this season is close to going down the drain already.

**** Dubas? Well, he is who they decided to go with and he should at least now have the option of bringing in a coach that plays to the team strengths. Things look bad now, but that's the only way this experiment gets to be evaluated fairly. Right now Babcock doesn't have the players to play the type of game he wants, and Dubas doesn't have the coach to suit the team that he's built. It really is the worst of both worlds at this moment.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Is the talk of Matthews hating Babcock true (ie. legit articles mentioning it), or is it rumor based on "HF board poster heard from a friend who knows someone who works for the team" type word of mouth coupled with speculation about why Babcock went to Arizona to meet with Matthews? Honestly curious.

Has there been an article about it? No. Is it true? Of course. For a while all sides tried to hide it, but they are not even really doing that anymore. You can just look at all the little shots Matthews has been increasingly making about the Leafs' coaching staff. You can look at the leadership group (which consists of Rielly, Tavares and Matthews - and Marner but I don't think he is traveling with the team right now) minus Matthews going to meet with Babcock today to show they support him and try to turn things around.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,061
33,043
It's understandable to blame Babcock and Dubas, but what about the core of the team that insisted on taking huge salaries that severely hampers the team's ability to have depth? Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander say they want to win a Cup with the Leafs, but refused to make it work with the salary cap. Makes you wonder about whether they are really focused first on team success or personal finances and status.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,519
46,242
Has there been an article about it? No. Is it true? Of course. For a while all sides tried to hide it, but they are not even really doing that anymore. You can just look at all the little shots Matthews has been increasingly making about the Leafs' coaching staff. You can look at the leadership group (which consists of Rielly, Tavares and Matthews - and Marner but I don't think he is traveling with the team right now) minus Matthews going to meet with Babcock today to show they support him and try to turn things around.

Wonder what that does for locker room cohesion if certain players support Babcock and certain players want him gone.
 

member 300185

Guest
So which brilliant coach do you replace him with? And I suppose this new coach must show win after win after win and no failures for you guys to be happy.
I'd easily go with Taro Tsujimoto.
 

Neutral Hockey Fan

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
2,881
1,294
I find it funny that after years of leaf fans self-proclaiming them the “big 4”, leaf fans are now calling Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, “the overpaid 4”. It has been catching on around these boards and throughout the media as well.

Having 4 players (these 4 in particular) eat up 50% of the entire salary cap is a fireable offence that is not on Mike Babcock
 
  • Like
Reactions: stampedingviking
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->