Why does Steven Stamkos struggle in the playoffs?

[jford]

It will be interesting to see what his next contract is, with Johnson outplaying him both in the regular season and playoffs.

 

[DFC]

Maybe not anymore, but if you think Babcock didn't game plan for stammer, especially his one timer on the PP when they found out they were playing Tampa I'd say you're crazy.

I agree with you now that he's trying to find a way to stop TKO line bcause their speed and skill is causing big problems for Detroit.

What makes Babcock great is he was actually the FIRST coach to recognize Stamkos isn't our biggest threat... in November.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

If the Bolts lose this series, Stamkos will be the first guy to blame.

 

[The Macho King]

If the Bolts lose this series, Stamkos will be the first guy to blame.

True - but he'll just say some platitude about looking in the mirror or some ****.

 

[Rals]

It's rainy season in Tampa and he leg is acting up.

 

[FireBurningBin]

He just plays a game that gets shut down by good defensive teams in the playoffs since there are less penalties called.

Same thing keeps happening for Nash and Pacioretty. There really is nothing that surprising here.

Pacioretty doesn't score most of his goals on the PP. He just sucks in the post-season.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

He's a natural winger playing center. Swap him with Kucherov on the first line and his numbers would probably go up, but for team success he's probably best right where he is.

 

[JaegerDice]

Every team has coaches and video people.

They're obviously going to key in on who they perceive to be the most dangerous players on the other team and attempt to shut them down.

Most coaches would be happy neutralizing another team's top star and daring their depth to beat them.

That's why 2-way players have become so valuable. Guys like Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, Kesler, Zetterberg and Datsyuk (albeit, on the downswing of their careers now) who coaches can throw out against top competition to not only neutralize them, but produce while they're out there too.

 

[The Macho King]

Every team has coaches and video people.

They're obviously going to key in on who they perceive to be the most dangerous players on the other team and attempt to shut them down.

Most coaches would be happy neutralizing another team's top star and daring their depth to beat them.

That's why 2-way players have become so valuable. Guys like Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, Kesler, Zetterberg and Datsyuk (albeit, on the downswing of their careers now) who coaches can throw out against top competition to not only neutralize them, but produce while they're out there too.

This comes up every page - you're clearly not watching the games. The gameplan right now is to shut down Johnson - has been for awhile by any team that scouts us - which Babcock has done heavily. He was the first to prioritize shutting down the Johnson line - did it in November, and has tried to do it every match up since.

Johnson is the superstar they're trying to shut down. Johnson is the superstar that they're trying to take space away from. Johnson is the superstar that is rising to the occasion.

 

[Stephen]

Stamkos seems like a guy you can neutralize positionally as well as by limiting his speed. He has jersey flapping speed in straight lines but if you force him to move laterally, he's just not that effective. He's got that straight leg dash but if he has to alter his course he loses a ton of speed and power. Also, his puckhandling seems to be getting worse, it just rolls off him so easily, and ideally you want a center who can control things. Just put road blocks in his way and box him out he seems to be someone you don't have to worry about.

 

[DFC]

Stamkos seems like a guy you can neutralize positionally as well as by limiting his speed. He has jersey flapping speed in straight lines but if you force him to move laterally, he's just not that effective. He's got that straight leg dash but if he has to alter his course he loses a ton of speed and power. Also, his puckhandling seems to be getting worse, it just rolls off him so easily, and ideally you want a center who can control things. Just put road blocks in his way and box him out he seems to be someone you don't have to worry about.

I'm very sad to agree with all of this.

 

[DFC]

Every team has coaches and video people.

They're obviously going to key in on who they perceive to be the most dangerous players on the other team and attempt to shut them down.

Most coaches would be happy neutralizing another team's top star and daring their depth to beat them.

That's why 2-way players have become so valuable. Guys like Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, Kesler, Zetterberg and Datsyuk (albeit, on the downswing of their careers now) who coaches can throw out against top competition to not only neutralize them, but produce while they're out there too.

This is the myth that won't die. I heard Pierre McGuire mention it on TSN radio. Meanwhile, Ray Ferraro, who actually has watched the series because his son is playing in it, says that Babcock's trying to shut down Johnson first and foremost. What people don't realize is that has been largely the case for the entire year.

Stamkos is shutting himself down. Because it turns out it's a pretty easy thing to do.

 

[These Are The Days]

Well take a look at who Cooper has Stamkos playing with with and their production

Callahan 2 assists that came in the first 2 games of the series
Filppula 1 goal 1 assist -5 both points coming in game 2
Killorn 2 goals 1 assist and was invisible for games 3, 4, 5 going -2 in that span

The three of them are most effectively utilized playing a 2 way game and none of them have the speed, skill or finesse to bust the Babcock trap. Hell us Lightning fans pretty much plead and beg that they be put together as a single shut down line.

Cooper doesn't ever split the TKO line up so Stamkos has had to do pretty much everything by himself. The assist on the Garrison goal was a solid return to form.

It's been a bad series for half of our top 6 and Stamkos is as much to blame for his own lack of production as much as the streaky lack of chemistry with his teammates.

Killorn-Stamkos-Callahan will be white hot for 5 or 6 games then drop dead for another 5 or 6 while the TKO carries us the whole way.

 

[Bolt32]

Well take a look at who Cooper has Stamkos playing with with and their production

Callahan 2 assists that came in the first 2 games of the series
Filppula 1 goal 1 assist -5 both points coming in game 2
Killorn 2 goals 1 assist and was invisible for games 3, 4, 5 going -2 in that span

The three of them are most effectively utilized playing a 2 way game and none of them have the speed, skill or finesse to bust the Babcock trap. Hell us Lightning fans pretty much plead and beg that they be put together as a single shut down line.

Cooper doesn't ever split the TKO line up so Stamkos has had to do pretty much everything by himself. The assist on the Garrison goal was a solid return to form.

It's been a bad series for half of our top 6 and Stamkos is as much to blame for his own lack of production as much as the streaky lack of chemistry with his teammates.

Killorn-Stamkos-Callahan will be white hot for 5 or 6 games then drop dead for another 5 or 6 while the TKO carries us the whole way.

I think your reading too much into that Stamkos pass. Yes he saw Garrison wide open and passed it to him.

Just to Clarify, half the kids in the Junior and NCAA ranks could make that pass. Just saying. That play was more of a result of Kucherov than anything.

After that pass he played like crap the rest of the game. Even if you declare that was best pass all season league wide. That doesn't excuse the other 13 minutes of garbage he poured out on the ice.

 

[Jeti]

Pacioretty doesn't score most of his goals on the PP. He just sucks in the post-season.

The more high-profile and one-dimensional a player is, the more likely they'll be shut down in the playoffs. With defenses tightening up (especially in the neutral zone), less offense is generated off the rush and more comes from the cycle (maintaining possession, either picking the defense apart with passes down low or working back to the point looking for deflections or rebounds). Ovechkin in his prime being shut down by Montreal is a great example of this. As prolific as he was in those days, he was a one-trick pony, scoring most of his goals off the rush and usually with the same move (curl and drag, shoot through the defenders skates). Stamkos finding quiet ice and needing to be set up is another example of one trick that he's really good at but that is easily taken away from him.

The ones you see excel in the playoffs are typically the players who score lots of ugly goals, like Parise, or guys who score in so many different ways that they can't be labeled as one type of player, like Kane.

Edit: since I criticized prime Ovechkin and I'm sure some will take offense or give Halak all the praise, I'll point out that I think he's a far more complete player now than when he was putting up more points. He's lost a step physically for sure but he's a much smarter player than he was before.

 

[Leonardo87]

Well take a look at who Cooper has Stamkos playing with with and their production

Callahan 2 assists that came in the first 2 games of the series
Filppula 1 goal 1 assist -5 both points coming in game 2
Killorn 2 goals 1 assist and was invisible for games 3, 4, 5 going -2 in that span

The three of them are most effectively utilized playing a 2 way game and none of them have the speed, skill or finesse to bust the Babcock trap. Hell us Lightning fans pretty much plead and beg that they be put together as a single shut down line.

Cooper doesn't ever split the TKO line up so Stamkos has had to do pretty much everything by himself. The assist on the Garrison goal was a solid return to form.

It's been a bad series for half of our top 6 and Stamkos is as much to blame for his own lack of production as much as the streaky lack of chemistry with his teammates.

Killorn-Stamkos-Callahan will be white hot for 5 or 6 games then drop dead for another 5 or 6 while the TKO carries us the whole way.

You are underrating these guys, and Stamkos struggles has not been because of his line-mates. Have you ever thought that because he is struggling is why they are not putting up these crazy amount of points? Also having a poor PP does not help either.

I wish Coop would keep Killorn-Flip-Callahan together, that line will score, and shutdown the top line opponents.

 

[Bolt32]

You are underrating these guys, and Stamkos struggles has not been because of his line-mates. Have you ever thought that because he is struggling is why they are not putting up these crazy amount of points? Also having a poor PP does not help either.

I wish Coop would keep Killorn-Flip-Callahan together, that line will score, and shutdown the top line opponents.

If it was up to me.

Palat-Johnson Kucherov---1st
Killorn-Flippula-Callahan----2nd
Drouin-Namensikov-Stamkos---3rd
Brown/Morrow-Boyle-Paquette---4th.

I don't know why we haven't tried this yet. I actually think Drouin and Namensikov may actually be able to get him out of slump. Both of those players play a style that is the breast feeding that a Stamkos requires.

 

[DFC]

You are underrating these guys, and Stamkos struggles has not been because of his line-mates. Have you ever thought that because he is struggling is why they are not putting up these crazy amount of points? Also having a poor PP does not help either.

I wish Coop would keep Killorn-Flip-Callahan together, that line will score, and shutdown the top line opponents.

Stamkos's lack of production is partly because of his linemates. There's no question that if you put a 90 point guy with two guys who've never cracked 60, his production will go down.

But the problem is his struggles go way, way beyond the lack of production. Most TB fans don't even really care that Stamkos's numbers have gone down. It's the never-ending string of careless/brainless plays that have us concerned.

 

[Leonardo87]

If it was up to me.

Palat-Johnson Kucherov---1st
Killorn-Flippula-Callahan----2nd
Drouin-Namensikov-Stamkos---3rd
Brown/Morrow-Boyle-Paquette---4th.

I don't know why we haven't tried this yet. I actually think Drouin and Namensikov may actually be able to get him out of slump. Both of those players play a style that is the breast feeding that a Stamkos requires.

Yeah, I agree.

I think next season you throw a line of Drouin-Stamkos-Callahan and it will be good will have plenty of time to see if it works, Stamkos will have a play maker and a puck hound on that line who can also score goals. You can't do that now since Coop is keeping Drouin on a short leash, so that is the best option you posted. Plus, I don't even see Drouin playing with Stamkos at all this post season to be honest.

Not trying to make excuses for Flip but he has been mostly on babysitting duty watching guys with no playoff experience, and likely why he is a -5. You put him with Callahan and Killorn and that is a strong scoring line, and defensive line.

I don't think Coop will make any changes. Both of the top lines scored twice yesterday. So there is not much more you can ask for if they can keep that up.

Stamkos's lack of production is partly because of his linemates. There's no question that if you put a 90 point guy with two guys who've never cracked 60, his production will go down.

But the problem is his struggles go way, way beyond the lack of production. Most TB fans don't even really care that Stamkos's numbers have gone down. It's the never-ending string of careless/brainless plays that have us concerned.

That's the point I was trying to make.

I have no issues with Stamkos scoring only 40 something goals, and like 70 points, it's really not the point production, it is the bad decisions like you said he makes that brings down the entire line that are really the concern. The stupid penalties, bad blind passes, the turnovers like on that 5 on 3, and etc. These guys on his line are no MSL, only thing they will bring better than MSL is better defense. Which is not really a priority on a top line but is still needed.

 

[Bolt32]

Yeah, I agree.

I think next season you throw a line of Drouin-Stamkos-Callahan and it will be good will have plenty of time to see if it works, Stamkos will have a play maker and a puck hound on that line who can also score goals. You can't do that now since Coop is keeping Drouin on a short leash, so that is the best option you posted. Plus, I don't even see Drouin playing with Stamkos at all this post season to be honest.

Not trying to make excuses for Flip but he has been mostly on babysitting duty watching guys with no playoff experience, and likely why he is a -5. You put him with Callahan and Killorn and that is a strong scoring line, and defensive line.

I don't think Coop will make any changes. Both of the top lines scored twice yesterday. So there is not much more you can ask for if they can keep that up.

I always felt that Erne would be the eventually replacement for Callahan, though even then it doesn't mean Callahan just becomes expendable. Good thing is he is a very versitile player. Since Cooper seems to have a man ***** for Erne, we could see a top line of

Drouin-Stamkos-Erne as fast as next season. If not probably in two seasons from now. Moving Callahan with Flippula and Killorn who have shown they are a damn good shut down line in their own right would give us three amazing lines.

As of now though, I would like to roll out with what I posted earlier. Stamkos needs to be breast fed. Let Namensikov and Drouin feed him then. Since Namensikov shown he can do it with Kucherov in the AHL. Drouin is going to make a Career out of it most likely. Mise well just let it happen while Stamkos is struggling. Worse comes to worse the same thing continues to happen. Best case scenario. We go into game 7 with three really strong lines. Potentially with an opportunity for a deep run. We will need more than just TKO if we want a serious run at it. Think those four lines could provide it.

 

[SB164]

Stamkos seems like a guy you can neutralize positionally as well as by limiting his speed. He has jersey flapping speed in straight lines but if you force him to move laterally, he's just not that effective. He's got that straight leg dash but if he has to alter his course he loses a ton of speed and power. Also, his puckhandling seems to be getting worse, it just rolls off him so easily, and ideally you want a center who can control things. Just put road blocks in his way and box him out he seems to be someone you don't have to worry about.

Is Stamkos known as a player who can slow down the play (to his benefit)?

I think of a Nicklas Backstrom who's just able to control the game in the offensive zone by slowing it down.

 

[DFC]

Is Stamkos known as a player who can slow down the play (to his benefit)?

I think of a Nicklas Backstrom who's just able to control the game in the offensive zone by slowing it down.

The big thing we've learned this year is Stamkos can not. Which is a big reason why playing him with Val Filppula was a disaster.

 

[Stephen]

Is Stamkos known as a player who can slow down the play (to his benefit)?

I think of a Nicklas Backstrom who's just able to control the game in the offensive zone by slowing it down.

Traditionally he's been a guy who succeeds by stealth in the slot, at the faceoff circle for quick strike goals and attacking the net with speed. I'm not seeing any indications that he is one of those classic number one centers who can control the puck and pace of the game, since even during his 50 and 60 goal seasons St. Louis was more of the puck carrier, creator.

 

[binary0x01]

The more high-profile and one-dimensional a player is, the more likely they'll be shut down in the playoffs. With defenses tightening up (especially in the neutral zone), less offense is generated off the rush and more comes from the cycle (maintaining possession, either picking the defense apart with passes down low or working back to the point looking for deflections or rebounds). Ovechkin in his prime being shut down by Montreal is a great example of this. As prolific as he was in those days, he was a one-trick pony, scoring most of his goals off the rush and usually with the same move (curl and drag, shoot through the defenders skates). Stamkos finding quiet ice and needing to be set up is another example of one trick that he's really good at but that is easily taken away from him.

The ones you see excel in the playoffs are typically the players who score lots of ugly goals, like Parise, or guys who score in so many different ways that they can't be labeled as one type of player, like Kane.

Edit: since I criticized prime Ovechkin and I'm sure some will take offense or give Halak all the praise, I'll point out that I think he's a far more complete player now than when he was putting up more points. He's lost a step physically for sure but he's a much smarter player than he was before.

Um, don't put Stamkos into the same category as AO. And also take a look at AO playoff stats.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

I always felt that Erne would be the eventually replacement for Callahan, though even then it doesn't mean Callahan just becomes expendable. Good thing is he is a very versitile player. Since Cooper seems to have a man ***** for Erne, we could see a top line of

Drouin-Stamkos-Erne as fast as next season. If not probably in two seasons from now. Moving Callahan with Flippula and Killorn who have shown they are a damn good shut down line in their own right would give us three amazing lines.

As of now though, I would like to roll out with what I posted earlier. Stamkos needs to be breast fed. Let Namensikov and Drouin feed him then. Since Namensikov shown he can do it with Kucherov in the AHL. Drouin is going to make a Career out of it most likely. Mise well just let it happen while Stamkos is struggling. Worse comes to worse the same thing continues to happen. Best case scenario. We go into game 7 with three really strong lines. Potentially with an opportunity for a deep run. We will need more than just TKO if we want a serious run at it. Think those four lines could provide it.

You're crazy if you think Cooper isn't going to absolutely bury Erne in the pressbox and on the 4th line.