Why does Canucks player development suck so much?

[LolClarkson*]

A combination of poor drafting, trading draft picks leading to a lower total amount of picks than most teams, and low picks. The team stayed competive through trades and signings the past while and it's catching up to them. Luckily Gillis realized this a few years into his regime and prioritized keeping picks and setting up a good farm system in Utica which should reap some benefit sooner than later

Not to be a homer, but remember that study that came out about all 30 teams drafting ? We were mid pack.

Look at how many picks we have traded away yet we have divisional championships and playoff games in the West Coast Xpress era AND we have divisional and Presidents trophies and playoffs to show for the Sedin/Loungo era.

How does a team stay competitive if it sucks so bad at both drafting and developing ?

We did something right

 

[Archangel]

You draft every year in the bottom third it is a crap shoot

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Having no first, second or third in 2010 was terrible.

 

[me2]

99% bad scouting. Good prospects will come through.

 

[Wilch]

Problem stems from having an old boys club running the show.

Let's hope Benning continues the good work Gillis has done and cut off the remaining deadweight from this organization.

From amateur scouting to player development.

The latter has already progressed with us getting a solid franchise in Utica and Travis Green. Amateur scouting has seemingly turned a corner, but who really knows until a couple years down the road.

 

[Tom.H]

Bourdon might not be playing in the NHL if he didn't die.

True, but most think he had turned the corner and was starting to contribute. It looked like he was starting to realize his potential.

 

[Derp Kassian]

2013 draft and Travis Green are going to be Gillis' best moves for this organization. Keeping Green for 2 years is huge. He had us thinking Jensen was a competent player for abit there.

 

[Bubbles]

Problem stems from having an old boys club running the show.

Let's hope Benning continues the good work Gillis has done and cut off the remaining deadweight from this organization.

From amateur scouting to player development.

The latter has already progressed with us getting a solid franchise in Utica and Travis Green. Amateur scouting has seemingly turned a corner, but who really knows until a couple years down the road.

But we have an "old boy" running the show now! Benning and Linden in fact. and Delorme still has a job. Not to mention Smyl as a scout.

Gillis was a real outsider and no connections with the old club. He made a lot of improvements and most of his work will be seen later.

We also have an abysmal drafting record in the BCHL which is downright unforgivable. We should have a monopoly on some of the better players to come out of this league!

 

[LolClarkson*]

Problem stems from having an old boys club running the show.

Let's hope Benning continues the good work Gillis has done and cut off the remaining deadweight from this organization.

From amateur scouting to player development.

The latter has already progressed with us getting a solid franchise in Utica and Travis Green. Amateur scouting has seemingly turned a corner, but who really knows until a couple years down the road.

We are not an old boys club.

Honestly, I think Burke/Nonis and Gillis were both decent GM's. I am hoping and praying that Benning is up for the job. So far , he is doing alright. Nobody agrees with everything he's done, but he didn't sign BoLOLand His Tanev deal looks a lot like something Gillis would have wrote which was Gillis's strongest point.

That's all I ask. NO laughers. No Letangs , No Clarksons, No BoLOLands.

 

[Derp Kassian]

We are not an old boys club.

Honestly, I think Burke/Nonis and Gillis were both decent GM's. I am hoping and praying that Benning is up for the job. So far , he is doing alright. Nobody agrees with everything he's done, but he didn't sign BoLOLand His Tanev deal looks a lot like something Gillis would have wrote which was Gillis's strongest point.

That's all I ask. NO laughers. No Letangs , No Clarksons, No BoLOLands.

Gradin/Smyl/Snepsts/Delorme/Lindgren would beg to differ.

 

[GCM]

you're jumping to a poor conclusion.

If you want to look at player development then how can you justify only looking at the first round?

Player development has a lot to do with our later round picks like Hansen and Bieksa that have turned into regular NHLers.

The problem is not development, it has always been drafting


not only the draft selections themselves, but recently when the canucks were winning presidents trophies and constantly winning the northwest we were getting late picks 20th and later.

Lower picks + poor amateur scouting = fairly empty cupboard.

Last couple years have done well to alleviate that. We have some promising players. Both our first round selections like Shinkaruk and Virtanen but also some of our later picks, namely Cole Cassels.

 

[vancityluongo]

Why are we only looking at players drafted? How about Tanev or Lack who have developed superbly and were signed as undrafted free agents? A guy like Burrows was brought up from the ECHL and turned into a Selke-caliber penalty killer and a 30 goal scorer. Zack Kassian is tracking well too. And even out of draft picks, Schneider was seasoned in the system for almost a decade and is now a premier goalie in the league.

His Tanev deal looks a lot like something Gillis would have wrote which was Gillis's strongest point.

Because it *is* something that would have been written while Gillis was here. By Gilman.

 

[RandV]

Gradin/Smyl/Snepsts/Delorme/Lindgren would beg to differ.

It's perfectly normal to have a few old time vets in the organization. The majority of these jobs are filled by former NHL'ers, simply because when you've been in the game all your life it makes for an easier transition. It's not like you can go out and get a 'pro scouting' college degree or something.

Problems arise however when these hiring's become an inner network that have a firm control on things and little to no accountability. We used to have one, but Burke tore that down when he was hired for the job. Really the only hold out now is the scouting department based around Delorme, which is just outright baffling how he's kept a job.

Being optimistic, I have to figure he doesn't do much if any actual scouting anymore and is just a good facilitator and/or people person. When you bring a dozen different amateur scouts to the draft table someone's gotta sort the list out. So yes, let's say he's a people skills!

 

[dc]

It's hard to develop players to play on the big club when the coach from the big club isn't even making phone calls down to the farm team to check on prospects who are developing (yes I'm referring to last years circus.)

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

One thing (IMO) is then insisting not to plug in rookies immediately after being drafted.

We saw this with Luc Bourdon and Cody Hodgson.

Both looked ready and had a legitimate shot at competing and weren't given shots.

I believe Nonis said at the time he didn't want to waste a year of ELC deal on the bottom pairing for Bourdon. Which is ridiculous. The obsession of "getting more minutes" in a worse league at some point needs to stop.

And Gillis has carried on that mighty tradition with Hodgson and not giving Shinkaruk even 8 games last season despite the fact they were one of the worst offensive teams.

I am with you, its a young players league. Every year we see under 21s break out in the NHL. No reason to overseason in todays league. Get them playing with NHL players.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Having no first, second or third in 2010 was terrible.

McNally 4th and Polasek 5th made that one of the most brutal drafts in Canuck history.

 

[Wilch]

One thing (IMO) is then insisting not to plug in rookies immediately after being drafted.

We saw this with Luc Bourdon and Cody Hodgson.

Both looked ready and had a legitimate shot at competing and weren't given shots.

I believe Nonis said at the time he didn't want to waste a year of ELC deal on the bottom pairing for Bourdon. Which is ridiculous. The obsession of "getting more minutes" in a worse league at some point needs to stop.

And Gillis has carried on that mighty tradition with Hodgson and not giving Shinkaruk even 8 games last season despite the fact they were one of the worst offensive teams.

It's not an obsession, there's a reason behind it.

The difference between playing 10 minutes on the 3rd/4th line of an NHL team getting extremely sheltered minutes is vastly different from getting 18-20 minutes on the 1st/2nd line while playing top PP/PK minutes.

NHL teams rarely tank from the outset, and thus will need to ice their best lines to win games. As a result, any time a rookie isn't contributing or is bleeding goals, they ride the pine. As you saw this season, a 8-10 point difference is the difference between a playoff spot and picking in the top 6. For most non-joke franchises, it's imperative to stay competitive until you're mathematically eliminated.

As a result, by the time we hit October, most teams have their top 6 nailed down with a couple of 3rd line tweeners ready to jump up into the 1st/2nd line when need be. This means rookies are rarely gifted a roster spot in the top 6 unless the team is brutal and devoid of talent (CLB/EDM). Which would be fine, if we had only 2-3 proven top 6 players, we can probably give our best blue chipper a spot, but it's rarely the case as we've been looking to compete between 2008-2014 (beginning of last season).

Playing against slightly inferior players or players near your level allows you to have the time and space to work on your game (offense in particular). When you're constantly stuck on the 3rd/4th line with grinders like Sestito and Hansen, it's difficult to get into an offensive groove unless you're a speed demon with insane hands capable of creating offense out of nowhere. For most players, they either need a good finisher or a good puck retriever/passer, which is few and far between in the bottom 6.

While Sestito is in the NHL and someone like Alex Giroux in the AHL, there's a huge difference between setting up Alex Giroux in the AHL against inferior players/goalies than setting up Sestito in the NHL against high end defenders and goalies.

I think more than any other sport, mental fortitude is important in hockey. Taking baby steps to the NHL makes it a lot easier for young players to adjust. When you have more time and space to create offense and put up numbers, it's an indication you're doing something right. You could be doing all the right things in the NHL sometimes, but still fail to put up numbers (Kassian). Rookies without the mental fortitude may feel like they hit a glass ceiling and start becoming more hesitant (major cause of slumps) and turns into a vicious cycle.

The big leap is not as easy as it looks. Very few prospects since the cap era outside of the elite and occasional diamond in the rough are able to make the jump right away.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

^ J Hansen was a .86 PPG player in the AHL. If he were in the AHL right now hed be destroying it. If Horvat plays with Janik Hansen it's likely the best player he's played with outside international competition.

On top of that we'd be able to dictate Bo's minutes. I haven't been impressed by the way London has used him, I really hesitate to send him back there if they are rebuilding.. Bo Horvat doesn't need more OHL defensive zone starts.

A 210 pound man going up in a face off against a 155 17 year old... What's that going to teach him?

 

[Wilch]

^ J Hansen was a .86 PPG player in the AHL. If he were in the AHL right now hed be destroying it. If Horvat plays with Janik Hansen it's likely the best player he's played with outside international competition.

On top of that we'd be able to dictate Bo's minutes. I haven't been impressed by the way London has used him, I really hesitate to send him back there if they are rebuilding.. Bo Horvat doesn't need more OHL defensive zone starts.

Except Horvat and Hansen won't be facing up against rubbish AHL defenders.

They'd be facing guys like Hjalmarsson, Niskanen, and other mid pairing defenders.

And no, we wouldn't be able to dictate Horvat's minutes unless the ownership and GM wanted to tank.

Horvat can probably step in and do fine this year - but it's unlikely he can put up the numbers required to justify playing 18-20 minutes a game, which is somewhere along the lines of 45-55 points while playing excellent NHL defense.

Sure we can play him 18-20 minutes a game, but he might very well put up 30-40 points and play average defense. This could tank this entire team's season - which I don't mind, but I'm sure the Aquilinis wouldn't want that.

 

[F A N]

Problems arise however when these hiring's become an inner network that have a firm control on things and little to no accountability. We used to have one, but Burke tore that down when he was hired for the job. Really the only hold out now is the scouting department based around Delorme, which is just outright baffling how he's kept a job.

Being optimistic, I have to figure he doesn't do much if any actual scouting anymore and is just a good facilitator and/or people person. When you bring a dozen different amateur scouts to the draft table someone's gotta sort the list out. So yes, let's say he's a people skills!

How did Burke tore down that old boys club? I don't recall him making any big changes to the scouting staff.

I think Delorme is a respected scout amongst the scouting community. Two years ago he was redeployed by Gillis to scout the WHL so Shinkaruk might be his pick.

I think the real optimism comes from Benning's hire. He plans to be very hands-on and very likely will scout more games than our past GMs.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I hope gillis' final parting gift, stability in Utica, will improve development. Moving from Manitoba to Chicago to Utica with the carousel of coaches and motivations (Chicago overplaying veterans) contributed to our woeful futures. Solid control of our prospects in Utica, extra practice time, as well as fan support all should help shinkaruk, gaunce, etc develop.

Agree with this but most of it comes down to drafting in the first place and the Canucks have simply not drafted well for quite a while 13 being the exception and 14 as well to a degree but time will tell if we have turned that corner or not in around 5 years or so.

 

[Iridescent*]

Problem stems from having an old boys club running the show.

Let's hope Benning continues the good work Gillis has done and cut off the remaining deadweight from this organization.

From amateur scouting to player development.

The latter has already progressed with us getting a solid franchise in Utica and Travis Green. Amateur scouting has seemingly turned a corner, but who really knows until a couple years down the road.

Benning isn't in charge of any of that, that is Linden's call. Gillis was president of hockey ops and general manager, so he had a lot of power. Now that power is divided between Benning (roster) and Linden (staff). Benning has zero say at all with everything you're talking about. He may make suggestions, but it's not in his job description.

Linden is the man in charge of the staff. For everyone from trainers, to scouts, to consultants. So as far as the "old boys club" mentality you elude to, not sure Linden is the guy to break that up. Just another one of the old boys in my book.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Except Horvat and Hansen won't be facing up against rubbish AHL defenders.

They'd be facing guys like Hjalmarsson, Niskanen, and other mid pairing defenders.

And no, we wouldn't be able to dictate Horvat's minutes unless the ownership and GM wanted to tank.

Horvat can probably step in and do fine this year - but it's unlikely he can put up the numbers required to justify playing 18-20 minutes a game, which is somewhere along the lines of 45-55 points while playing excellent NHL defense.

Sure we can play him 18-20 minutes a game, but he might very well put up 30-40 points and play average defense. This could tank this entire team's season - which I don't mind, but I'm sure the Aquilinis wouldn't want that.

Why is it that playing 19 year old rookies would tank our season, but Dallas can do it with an 18 year old and move into a playoff spot?

 

[hockeywoot]

Development is fine.

Its poor drafting/trading away picks.

Having our own AHL team will improve the development further. (though won't reap rewards right away)

 

[arsmaster*]

Why is it that playing 19 year old rookies would tank our season, but Dallas can do it with an 18 year old and move into a playoff spot?

Because Jamie Benn and Tyler Seguin are pretty good.