Why did the Sharks fire Sutter and Lombardi?

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Ok, then it's all chance. Or luck. You can all stop watching hockey now

Circumstance and luck plays a big part in all sports success. Not saying they won/win because of luck, but they've had quite a few breaks fall into place for them that wouldn't have happened here, so comparing them then to now is assinine.

Sj had an internal cap of around 40 million at that time. They didn't have the resources they do now (or Jeff Cartee for very little).

They did the best with what they had, but they also failed on most of their high draft picks and quite a few trades (Selanne as the main one).

 

[hohosaregood]

I don't but that LA attracts more free agents than SJ. I've lived both places and I'd think most Canadians would rather be around SJ. Probably most Americans too. LA is a bit crowded.

Dean did make a trade that has helped the Kings a great deal. Not many thought it was a big deal but getting Justin Williams for Patrick O'Sullivan and 2nd round pick has really worked out for them. Williams is the type of playoff performer us Sharks fans talk about when we are annoyed at Thornton and Marleau for not getting it done.

It was pretty low risk, high reward because of what they gave up for him but he guy had 3 years in a row where he played less than 50 games. He could've just as easily become Martin Havlat.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Circumstance and luck plays a big part in all sports success. Not saying they won/win because of luck, but they've had quite a few breaks fall into place for them that wouldn't have happened here, so comparing them then to now is assinine.

Sj had an internal cap of around 40 million at that time. They didn't have the resources they do now (or Jeff Cartee for very little).

They did the best with what they had, but they also failed on most of their high draft picks and quite a few trades (Selanne as the main one).

Both Lombardi and Doug Wilson have had several years with their club, with a big budget in place. Lombardi has delivered a Cup and a lot of playoff success. Doug Wilson really hasn't.

It was pretty low risk, high reward because of what they gave up for him but he guy had 3 years in a row where he played less than 50 games. He could've just as easily become Martin Havlat.

And why is that? I think too easily the Sharks and their fans say, "well, they got lucky with Williams, and Mitchell, etc. and the Sharks just got unlucky with Havlat". Because we know that Doug Wilson went after Mitchell but balked because Mitchell wanted two years. Lombardi took the risk, and was rewarded. Credit to him for making the acquisition.

 

[hohosaregood]

And why is that? I think too easily the Sharks and their fans say, "well, they got lucky with Williams, and Mitchell, etc. and the Sharks just got unlucky with Havlat". Because we know that Doug Wilson went after Mitchell but balked because Mitchell wanted two years. Lombardi took the risk, and was rewarded. Credit to him for making the acquisition.

The acquisition of Williams was a good acquisition once the Kings started to compete and it was a great re-signing too. I wasn't taking anything away from Lombardi but it's just the way it is. We can take all the risks in the world and you'll look like a genius when it works out and a fool when it fails. You can't just use Williams and Mitchell as examples and just say Lombardi is better than DW for it. Havlat for Heatley was a fantastic trade at the time considering Havlat wanting out and playing 75ish games for the 3 years prior while Heatley's injuries were getting bad and the trajectory was clear. NO ONE could've foreseen Havlat snapping a hamstring by getting off a bench.

Edit: Here's the thread from when Williams was traded
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=615777

 

[Coily]

I don't but that LA attracts more free agents than SJ. I've lived both places and I'd think most Canadians would rather be around SJ. Probably most Americans too. LA is a bit crowded.

Dean did make a trade that has helped the Kings a great deal. Not many thought it was a big deal but getting Justin Williams for Patrick O'Sullivan and 2nd round pick has really worked out for them. Williams is the type of playoff performer us Sharks fans talk about when we are annoyed at Thornton and Marleau for not getting it done.

Carolina was a playoff team

Williams had injury issues and scored 3 goals in Carolina that year before getting traded.

Carolina also moved O'Sullivan that same day for Erik Cole who they knew could play and also had 16 goals already on the year.

3goals > 16goals Right?

Also Lombardi had the foresight to get Williams because he knew that Cole would have his knee blown out that year against Pittsburgh and that Williams would get over his injury issues.

Lombardi best GM of all time.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Both Lombardi and Doug Wilson have had several years with their club, with a big budget in place. Lombardi has delivered a Cup and a lot of playoff success. Doug Wilson really hasn't.

And a lot of the contributors for the Kings were drafted by the previous regime. A lot of team success is predicated on what they inherit. He inherited a decent situation and has made solid moves. Lombardi, though, left a big mess in Sj to clean up. Outside of Marleau, there weren't any big time players and there werent any blue chip prospects in the a.

Wilson can't control how the team plays in the playoffs. He does his best to get them there each year, but ultimately it's up to the players.

Judging gm's based on the teams playoff results from the last 3 years is silly.

 

[dwood16]

Carolina was a playoff team

Williams had injury issues and scored 3 goals in Carolina that year before getting traded.

Carolina also moved O'Sullivan that same day for Erik Cole who they knew could play and also had 16 goals already on the year.

3goals > 16goals Right?

Also Lombardi had the foresight to get Williams because he knew that Cole would have his knee blown out that year against Pittsburgh and that Williams would get over his injury issues.

Lombardi best GM of all time.

Doug ...is that you?

Again you are pointing to examples of DW's good moves. Which haven't been good enough to get over the hump. While in fact, Lombardi's moves have been. You are missing the point. The point isn't whether or not DW has been "good" it's that he hasn't been as good as Lombardi ...and that the sharks made a mistake letting Lombardi go. That seemed obvious even when it happened. He was a great GM in San Jose and would have probably eventually got us a cup imo. Perhaps DW will too. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Audio Outlaw]

I see a lot of excuses being made for Doug Wilson in this thread.

I understand that ultimately the players are the ones who play the game, but at some point you have to look at and question management. With that being said... I don't want Doug Wilson fired, I just want him and everyone else in the organization placed directly on the hot seat.

To mee Lombardi vs Wilson is a toss up, with the obvious difference being the 2 cups (LA will eliminate NYR) which makes Lombardi the obvious winner IMO. What I favor about the Sutter/Lombardi tandem is that they are mean. They hold their players accountable and they never allow them to get comfortable. McLellan/Wilson are just the opposite from what I see. The SJ Sharks entire organization is far too comfortable. Not enough pressure is being placed on all positions. That's just the way I see things...

McLellan is the one who I think should go first. We need to get somebody in there that will light a fire under our boys. Somebody that will crack the whip on them when they start slacking off.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

How is anyone making excuses for Wilson?

People want to act as if sutter/lombardi would have the same success here when that probavly wouldn't be the case.

The Kings sucked up until they fired Murray. I know Sutter is a much better coach but a lot of the Kings players have entered their peaks together.

 

[Ender]

Lombardi was a second-class (or tier) GM in his tenure with the Sharks. He assembled a solid team, but had a few key flaws that essentially became his downfall. From what I am able to recall, his weakness was with holdouts. He could assemble a great team on the ice and on its the farm, but he had an abhorrence of signing players on time if it meant he would over pay them even in the slightest--and this was in the pre-cap era. Around the time of his firing there was even a rumor that he would take bets on how long he would hold out on his RFA.The new ownership almost certainly have had a impact with holdouts as has been mentioned (money, money, money), but in the end a GM has to find a way to work with his players and Lombardi didn't do that.

At the same time the NHL was full of players that were holding out during his reign as GM; looking back at it he may have been just caught in the cross-fire, but in his case the cross-fire got him. That is why he eventually was placed on the chopping block. Certainly his candor (as mentioned in the Purdy article) didn't help though. Through his experience with Philadelphia and being given a second chance in Los Angeles (which was going to happen, someone who can assemble a team like he did was not just going to fade away) he elevated himself into becoming a top-tier GM, much like his mentors Bill Torrey and Lou Lamoriello.

I think his comment about the Sharks of '03 can now be a comment about himself as well, "When you're rounding third and find you can't get to home plate, sometimes you have to take a step back and return to second base." He was fired from the Sharks, took a step back for a while and finally got a Cup with LA--almost certainly one of more to come.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I see a lot of excuses being made for Doug Wilson in this thread.

I understand that ultimately the players are the ones who play the game, but at some point you have to look at and question management. With that being said... I don't want Doug Wilson fired, I just want him and everyone else in the organization placed directly on the hot seat.

To mee Lombardi vs Wilson is a toss up, with the obvious difference being the 2 cups (LA will eliminate NYR) which makes Lombardi the obvious winner IMO. What I favor about the Sutter/Lombardi tandem is that they are mean. They hold their players accountable and they never allow them to get comfortable. McLellan/Wilson are just the opposite from what I see. The SJ Sharks entire organization is far too comfortable. Not enough pressure is being placed on all positions. That's just the way I see things...

McLellan is the one who I think should go first. We need to get somebody in there that will light a fire under our boys. Somebody that will crack the whip on them when they start slacking off.

Oh yeah they totally need to get more mean and angry and send them to bed without dinner too.

 

[Coily]

Doug ...is that you?

Again you are pointing to examples of DW's good moves. Which haven't been good enough to get over the hump. While in fact, Lombardi's moves have been. You are missing the point. The point isn't whether or not DW has been "good" it's that he hasn't been as good as Lombardi ...and that the sharks made a mistake letting Lombardi go. That seemed obvious even when it happened. He was a great GM in San Jose and would have probably eventually got us a cup imo. Perhaps DW will too. Hopefully sooner than later.

I talk about a trade between Carolina, Edmonton and LA. - Where is Doug Wilson, San Jose in any of that?

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Oh yeah they totally need to get more mean and angry and send them to bed without dinner too.

Duh. It's obvious this team is being fed too much and not yelled at. That's why they haven't won a cup yet.

Lombardi and Sutter would totally take this team to a cup.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Dean Lombardi wanted to sign both Nabokov and Stuart well before the start of training camp, it was the new owners that prevented him from doing so because they were more worried about saving money than winning hockey games. I think after that season they learned their lesson and just let DW handle everything when it comes to contracts.

As for Sutter, well, it took him all of 1 season to find a new job and find his way to a Stanley Cup Final. The Sharks replaced him with Ron Wilson, quite possibly the worst head coach in franchise history.

I don't think you are right about this. I think I remember Lombardi saying both Stuart and Nabokov were asking for too much money to early. I think it was Dean who learned his lesson

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Duh. It's obvious this team is being fed too much and not yelled at. That's why they haven't won a cup yet.

Lombardi and Sutter would totally take this team to a cup.

Yup. Its funny that people think Sutter is some firebreather like Torts.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Yup. Its funny that people think Sutter is some firebreather like Torts.

They get that impression from Drew Remenda who witnessed it. Sutter may have changed

 

[Gene Parmesan]

They get that impression from Drew Remenda who witnessed it. Sutter may have changed

I'm sure TMac gets on guys in practice, like every other coach in every team sport. Its one of the dumbest narratives in sports. "The angry coach who can magically motivate teams".

 

[SJeasy]

Oh yeah they totally need to get more mean and angry and send them to bed without dinner too.

Spot on. The hard line doesn't sell with the players. As much as Sutter is portrayed as a hardliner, he isn't. Look at the clauses he handed out in Calgary. What the hardline/softline debate hides is the guys who walk the middle. They don't coddle, but they also don't crack the whip. Listen to the number of times around the league that we hear about bag skates; it is going the day of the dodo. If we pay attention to all the stuff about TM, he is walking that fine line as is Sutter. TM's downfall is sticking to long with his vets when his vets are failing. But the flipside is that he probably wouldn't have enjoyed as many periods of success without his vets on board. With Sutter, he at least had the courage to demote Brown and Richards with their struggles. This issue also goes back to the GM and the org because if they set up as one or two guys being untouchable for the coach, the coach's hands are tied.

Also, Lombardi is in LA, it's a much bigger market and they have a FAR easier time signing free agents than we do. Just because he won LA a cup doesn't mean he would have won SJ a cup.

Even though it isn't true, both LA and NY sell their ability to get more personal money for the players through appearances and advertising. They claim, unjustly, that they won't get more elsewhere. This is a big consideration for agents for those UFA players.

 

[TheDanceOfMaternity]

I'm sure TMac gets on guys in practice, like every other coach in every team sport. Its one of the dumbest narratives in sports. "The angry coach who can magically motivate teams".

But the kings always play on their toes, not unlike the Sutter era sharks except with far higher talent.

The sharks today are always saturated with more than enough talent but almost never play with that kind of urgency. Certainly never when they need to.

 

[dwood16]

I talk about a trade between Carolina, Edmonton and LA. - Where is Doug Wilson, San Jose in any of that?

I must have quoted the wrong post or something?

 

[OrrNumber4]

On coaches...Bowman was definitely reputed to be a very mean coach, yet he was also a very successful coach. Ken Hitchcock is another guy who is known to be hard on his players.

Personally, you need both. Look at Alexander Korolyuk. He doesn't turn out to be a two-way forward without Darryl Sutter, who taught him defense. And he doesn't get a shot in the NHL without Ron Wilson, who let him do his thing.

 

[Hangemhigh]

Dombardi traded Larionov for "don't want to be here" Ray Sheppard.

I think he also got Craig Janney whose toughness makes Marleau look like Shelley.

He drafted Nazarov in the 1st round. Also Viktor "head case" Kozlov. He was also involved in the "Finnish draft" who had Riihijarvi as the 1st round pick.

When he traded for Marchment, he allowed Tampa the option to swap 1st round picks. So they did and Tampa gets the 1st pick overall which was Lecavalier.

He traded for Selanne who was supposed to be the final piece. But it seemed to really piss off Nolan who is cranky anyways. Selanne sucked as a Shark and Nolan was pissed at management.

He said Al Sims is his coach, then fires him like a week later.

When Sutter got here he told Lombardi who needed to go. Lombardi quit being a total dunce. He still had trouble signing players on time. He said he preferred if the players went to arbitration instead of negotiating. Because he sucked at his job which is signing players so they can contribute to winning.

Sutter would have 7am bag skates when the Sharks wouldn't work hard in a game. Nolan was benched if he didn't lead as a Captain should. Well, until his final year here. If a player didn't do his role, Sutter would make sure he would be out of here.

McLellan won't have hard skates because he wants the veterans rested. I understand the thought but some players need the stick if the carrot won't work. I think the Sharks right now need someone to swing an ax on them.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Dombardi traded Larionov for "don't want to be here" Ray Sheppard.

I think he also got Craig Janney whose toughness makes Marleau look like Shelley.

He drafted Nazarov in the 1st round. Also Viktor "head case" Kozlov. He was also involved in the "Finnish draft" who had Riihijarvi as the 1st round pick.

When he traded for Marchment, he allowed Tampa the option to swap 1st round picks. So they did and Tampa gets the 1st pick overall which was Lecavalier.

He traded for Selanne who was supposed to be the final piece. But it seemed to really piss off Nolan who is cranky anyways. Selanne sucked as a Shark and Nolan was pissed at management.

He said Al Sims is his coach, then fires him like a week later.

Thanks man.

I thought I had all off that erased from my mind but you brought up some bad memories.

 

[TealManV]

Dombardi traded Larionov for "don't want to be here" Ray Sheppard.

I think he also got Craig Janney whose toughness makes Marleau look like Shelley.

He drafted Nazarov in the 1st round. Also Viktor "head case" Kozlov. He was also involved in the "Finnish draft" who had Riihijarvi as the 1st round pick.

When he traded for Marchment, he allowed Tampa the option to swap 1st round picks. So they did and Tampa gets the 1st pick overall which was Lecavalier.

He traded for Selanne who was supposed to be the final piece. But it seemed to really piss off Nolan who is cranky anyways. Selanne sucked as a Shark and Nolan was pissed at management.

He said Al Sims is his coach, then fires him like a week later.

When Sutter got here he told Lombardi who needed to go. Lombardi quit being a total dunce. He still had trouble signing players on time. He said he preferred if the players went to arbitration instead of negotiating. Because he sucked at his job which is signing players so they can contribute to winning.

Sutter would have 7am bag skates when the Sharks wouldn't work hard in a game. Nolan was benched if he didn't lead as a Captain should. Well, until his final year here. If a player didn't do his role, Sutter would make sure he would be out of here.

McLellan won't have hard skates because he wants the veterans rested. I understand the thought but some players need the stick if the carrot won't work. I think the Sharks right now need someone to swing an ax on them.

Well done! That was very extensive and will hopefully put this thread to rest. No GM is perfect and a lot of time luck is involved. Players, Coaches and Management all evolve.

 

[Hangemhigh]

Well done! That was very extensive and will hopefully put this thread to rest. No GM is perfect and a lot of time luck is involved. Players, Coaches and Management all evolve.

I forgot to mention he let Ray Whitney, who was the Sharks leading scorer, walk because he wanted Ville Peltonen instead.

Dombardi as Sharks GM was like a teen driver who drove down the wrong side of the street and crashed over and over. He only quit wrecking when Sutter was able to tell him which hockey players didn't suck. Still had lots to learn. Probably heavily reliant on Sutter still.