Why did the Leafs lose to the Flyers in 2003?

[zeke]

Leclair and Handzus didn't hit you, but they were very physical - they went to the net and made you try to move their butts. That was extremely physically taxing for their opponent. Leclair especially was physically taxing to play against. The Line Of Doom wasn't just about Lindros - it was about 3 massive guys that were all hard to handle physically, even if they didn't hit you that often.

sure, much like Sundin, Antropov, Renberg on the leafs.

 

[ACC1224]

funny.

Cup champs:

2002: Red Wings
2003: Devils
2004: Lightning

all of them very fast, none of them especially physical.

I don't think many would agree with that which is kind of funny.
Devils use to play in sand and they and the Wings were pretty tough teams.

 

[Nineteen67]

funny.

Cup champs:

2002: Red Wings
2003: Devils
2004: Lightning

all of them very fast, none of them especially physical.

Would be a good time to remember “The Fight”.

 

[zeke]

funny.

Cup champs:

2002: Red Wings
2003: Devils
2004: Lightning

all of them very fast, none of them especially physical.

in fact, comparing to those cup winners.....

Matthews --- Yzerman ----- Nieuwendyk ----- Lecavalier
Marner ------ Shanahan ---- Elias ------------- St.Louis
Nylander ---- Hull ---------- Friesen ---------- Stillman

Tavares ------ Fedorov ------ Madden ---------- Richards
Hyman ------ Draper ------- Langenbrunner -- Andreychuk
Mikheyev ---- Holmstrom -- Brylin ------------- Modin

Kerfoot ------ Larionov ----- Gomez ------------ Taylor
Kapanen ----- Robitaille ---- Pandolfo ---------- Fedotenko
Johnsson ---- Maltby ----- -- Gionta ------------ Afanasenkov

Engvall ------ Datsyuk ------ Rheume ---------- Cibak
Clifford ------ McCarty ------ Marshall --------- Roy
Spezza ------- Devereaux ---- Stevenson -------- Dingman
Gauthier ---- Williams ------- McKenzie -------- Perrin


Rielly -------- Lidstrom ----- Niedermayer ---- Boyle
Muzzin ------ Chelios ------- Stevens ---------- Kubina

Barrie ------- Olausson ----- Rafalski ---------- Sydor
Holl --------- Fischer -------- White ------------ Sarich

Dermott ---- Duschene ------ Tverdovsky ------ Pratt
Ceci --------- Dandenault ---- Albelin ----------- Lukowich
Marincin ---- Kruppe -------- Daneyko --------- Cullimore

 

[Stephen]

I mean, we can see the rosters right up there.

In which line or pairing matchup there would you describe the flyers as being the more physical side, other than the bottom defense pair?

Zeke, honest question here. But why do you feel the need to do one of those X vs Leafs comparisons 17 years out from the fact, showing how much better the Leafs are or how much more favourable the Leafs are or whatever?

It was a grinding ugly series where everyone leaned on the opposition, played the attrition game and the Leafs were on the losing side. That doesn’t make the Leafs soft they just lost the matchup. And again in 2004 to a similar recipe.

Reminds me of when you used to do those Wellwood and Steen vs Carter and Richards PPG breakdowns showing how much better the Leafs duo was. What’s the satisfaction in trying to prove something when it’s not reflective of real world results?

 

[Stephen]

C'mon guys, that era of Leaf teams were plenty physical/gritty/heavy/etc. It's skill that they lacked. We have the opposite problem now lol.

Quinn’s teams lacked depth, skill and would run out of gas like the Desert Fox in North Africa. Kind of funny when you look back in hindsight the logic of building a roster of late 30 somethings who couldn’t last into June.

 

[IPS]

hilarious how leafs fans rewrite history to always remember the leafs as being too soft.

Every time.

If the Leafs don't win 100% of the board battles they're too soft and need more grit.

 

[Stephen]

hilarious how leafs fans rewrite history to always remember the leafs as being too soft.

The height and weight break down has very little insight to offer when you want to talk about how guys like Weinrich, Johnsson and Desjardins were able to weather the Leaf forecheck and make efficient plays on defense, compared and contrast to that era of Ottawa Senators like Wade Redden who could not. The ability to execute is neither just a skill or a grit issue but a real ability to play under a ton of duress.

Not to mention how much of a physical force Primeau and Roenick were down the middle of the ice vs Sundin and Reichel were similarly big guy and small guy.

 

[Nineteen67]

in fact, comparing to those cup winners.....

Matthews --- Yzerman ----- Nieuwendyk ----- Lecavalier
Marner ------ Shanahan ---- Elias ------------- St.Louis
Nylander ---- Hull ---------- Friesen ---------- Stillman

Tavares ------ Fedorov ------ Madden ---------- Richards
Hyman ------ Draper ------- Langenbrunner -- Andreychuk
Mikheyev ---- Holmstrom -- Brylin ------------- Modin

Kerfoot ------ Larionov ----- Gomez ------------ Taylor
Kapanen ----- Robitaille ---- Pandolfo ---------- Fedotenko
Johnsson ---- Maltby ----- -- Gionta ------------ Afanasenkov

Engvall ------ Datsyuk ------ Rheume ---------- Cibak
Clifford ------ McCarty ------ Marshall --------- Roy
Spezza ------- Devereaux ---- Stevenson -------- Dingman
Gauthier ---- Williams ------- McKenzie -------- Perrin


Rielly -------- Lidstrom ----- Niedermayer ---- Boyle
Muzzin ------ Chelios ------- Stevens ---------- Kubina

Barrie ------- Olausson ----- Rafalski ---------- Sydor
Holl --------- Fischer -------- White ------------ Sarich

Dermott ---- Duschene ------ Tverdovsky ------ Pratt
Ceci --------- Dandenault ---- Albelin ----------- Lukowich
Marincin ---- Kruppe -------- Daneyko --------- Cullimore

Fortunately the league has changed or theLeafs would be lightyears away from Cup contention.

 

[Coachcorner]

this was one of my easily favourite teams the maple leafs I've ever witnessed to see. All those pat quinn cigar teams with domi roberts nolan tucker belfour joseph sundin corson etc. Of course the gilmour clark ones was so treal, I mean so real but these quinn teams had the mentality of a killa also mayne. I loves them. The ottawa series and this flyers series was so treal. I still live through more of these games than the games they play now. Cause these was so treal and hard.

By the way that lumme berg pairing was our best probably defensively back then. They was aaight, and tight. A bit tender, but correct and them had them active sticks. Smartz.

Owen Nolan with us didn't work. But mayne, what a hard player he was. Shot the puck through a goalie from the midfield back in the days in the playoffs, with the san jose sharks. That was a game winner goal in the playoffs. Some sucka.

 

[ottomaddox]

hilarious how leafs fans rewrite history to always remember the leafs as being too soft.

Hilarious how sweeping generalizations discredit your arguments and dedication to "looking at everything objectively".

 

[zeke]

Zeke, honest question here. But why do you feel the need to do one of those X vs Leafs comparisons 17 years out from the fact, showing how much better the Leafs are or how much more favourable the Leafs are or whatever?

Weird question - what is the topic of this thread? Why wouldn't we compare these players while discussing it? Why are we even here?

It was a grinding ugly series where everyone leaned on the opposition, played the attrition game and the Leafs were on the losing side. That doesn’t make the Leafs soft they just lost the matchup. And again in 2004 to a similar recipe.

Thanks for your opinion, and I agree with it - the leafs were in no way out-heavied that series, but were in fact out-speeded and probably outskilled.

But I'm sure you don't mind if others like to discuss it beyond having to simply accept your or my opinion, as authoritative as we both know they are.

Reminds me of when you used to do those Wellwood and Steen vs Carter and Richards PPG breakdowns showing how much better the Leafs duo was. What’s the satisfaction in trying to prove something when it’s not reflective of real world results?

What do you mean? Steen certainly had a career of real world results comparable to those players. You should be crediting me for being right about that in the face of hostile opposition.Wellwood unfortunately didn't take his talent as seriously.

of course, you are misremembering that discussion anyways....but that's par for the course around here.

 

[Golden_Jet]

heavier?

Sundin 6'5" 230 ---- Roenick 6'1" 205

Who played a heavier game here, when the size difference was big

 

[zeke]

Who played a heavier game here, when the size difference was big

That's a very interesting argument all by itself.

 

[deletethis]

The Quinn 2000s Leafs' teams were gritty and played hard hockey. Ask the Sens. Their problem was age. They had the grit and the talent but their old bodies could be worn down after a round or two. By 2004, they would have been pretty much the oldest team to win a Stanley Cup, way older than the 67 team.

 

[Stephen]

Weird question - what is the topic of this thread? Why wouldn't we compare these players while discussing it? Why are we even here?



Thanks for your opinion, and I agree with it - the leafs were in no way out-heavied that series, but were in fact out-speeded and probably outskilled.

But I'm sure you don't mind if others like to discuss it beyond having to simply accept your or my opinion, as authoritative as we both know they are.



What do you mean? Steen certainly had a career of real world results comparable to those players. You should be crediting me for being right about that in the face of hostile opposition.Wellwood unfortunately didn't take his talent as seriously.

of course, you are misremembering that discussion anyways....but that's par for the course around here.

Again, no. The Flyers were not out-skilling or out-skating the Leafs. It was a semi skilled slug fest common of the dead puck era and the Flyers did a job taking the beating and giving the beating to win those series. They had a little more gas left in the tank but I wouldn’t say they won on skill or speed.

The Wellwood Steen vs Richards Carter argument was a joke then and it’s a joke now. Pro rating PPG averages in their rookie years vs. real world results.

 

[Stephen]

The Quinn 2000s Leafs' teams were gritty and played hard hockey. Ask the Sens. Their problem was age. They had the grit and the talent but their old bodies could be worn down after a round or two.

The Quinn 2000s Leafs' teams were gritty and played hard hockey. Ask the Sens. Their problem was age. They had the grit and the talent but their old bodies could be worn down after a round or two.

Flyers were made up the same way but were just a little fresher.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

I remember the early 00's where we couldn't beat Philly who couldn't beat Ottawa who couldn't beat us lol.

 

[zeke]

Again, no. The Flyers were not out-skilling or out-skating the Leafs. It was a semi skilled slug fest common of the dead puck era and the Flyers did a job taking the beating and giving the beating to win those series. They had a little more gas left in the tank but I wouldn’t say they won on skill or speed.

And Steven has spoken.

The Wellwood Steen vs Richards Carter argument was a joke then and it’s a joke now. Pro rating PPG averages in their rookie years vs. real world results.

Steen matches careers with either of them. Thanks for reminding us all how right I was after all the crap thrown my way way back when. Very kind of you.

Wellwood is a famous case of wasted talent. Too bad.

 

[Stephen]

And Steven has spoken.



Steen matches careers with either of them. Thanks for reminding us all how right I was after all the crap thrown my way way back when. Very kind of you.

Wellwood is a famous case of wasted talent. Too bad.

Jeff Carter and Mike Richards combine for 1219 points and 4 Stanley Cups between them and Alex Steen and Kyle Wellwood are at 857 points and 1 Stanley Cup, so no you were not right when your assumption was the Leafs had the better duo.

Again, putting all this energy to show how the Leafs have the better X, Y, Z compared to A, B, C when it's not true.

 

[Stephen]

I remember the early 00's where we couldn't beat Philly who couldn't beat Ottawa who couldn't beat us lol.

And whatever was left of Ottawa, Philadelphia and Toronto usually got turned into minced meat by New Jersey.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Besides losing to the Flyers in 2003 and 2004, what hurt the most about that is Toronto had Ed Belfour as their goalie both those years and on paper you think that gives them the advantage. However in 2003 the Flyers won with Roman Cechmanek and in 2004 they won with Robert Esche.

 

[zeke]

Jeff Carter and Mike Richards combine for 1219 points and 4 Stanley Cups between them and Alex Steen and Kyle Wellwood are at 857 points and 1 Stanley Cup, so no you were not right when your assumption was the Leafs had the better duo.

Again, putting all this energy to show how the Leafs have the better X, Y, Z compared to A, B, C when it's not true.

Oh hey one player in a comp I made 15 years ago turned out to be exactly as good as I said against everyone's criticisms, and the other became a legendary waste of talent after a promising start to his career. Sick burn, kiddo.

Now let's talk about your posts from 15 years ago....oh wait, no, nobody cares.

But hey, thanks for agreeing with me about this philly series.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Was this the series, that Hitch said, you took a 40ft run at players to hit them.
In the Ottawa series, it was a grinding checking series, where players, were on
players at all times.

 

[LeafsNation75]

And whatever was left of Ottawa, Philadelphia and Toronto usually got turned into minced meat by New Jersey.

Toronto did defeat Philadelphia during the first round in 1999 and it was basically the same team by the time they played them in 2003 and 2004. The only major differences was Ed Belfour replaced Curtis Joseph, plus Toronto added players such as Darcy Tucker, Gary Roberts and Shayne Corson. Plus they were still coached by Pat Quinn in all of those series.

Edit: I forgot how Corson resigned from the Leafs after being a healthy scratch for Game 3 in 2003, so he wasn't on their 2004 team that played the Flyers.