Why did the Leafs lose to the Flyers in 2003?

[notDatsyuk]

Quinn’s teams lacked depth, skill and would run out of gas like the Desert Fox in North Africa. Kind of funny when you look back in hindsight the logic of building a roster of late 30 somethings who couldn’t last into June.

They had a bad habit of doing that: "Fred was great two or three years ago, and now he's available as a free agent or in a trade for a couple of our young guys, so let's!" Never considering that if a team was letting a player in his mid-thirties go, maybe it was because he wasn't as good any more.

 

[ACC1224]

They had a bad habit of doing that: "Fred was great two or three years ago, and now he's available as a free agent or in a trade for a couple of our young guys, so let's!" Never considering that if a team was letting a player in his mid-thirties go, maybe it was because he wasn't as good any more.

Pre-cap that was pretty much the norm as you could buy your way out of a mess and the Leafs weren't the only team to do this.
Putting themselves in such a terrible position roster wise with a cap coming in is where they really messed up.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The Quinn 2000s Leafs' teams were gritty and played hard hockey. Ask the Sens. Their problem was age. They had the grit and the talent but their old bodies could be worn down after a round or two. By 2004, they would have been pretty much the oldest team to win a Stanley Cup, way older than the 67 team.

Not quite older (30.7 compared to 31), but probably farther from the league average. And of course, they didn't win

 

[GlitchMarner]

The Leafs weren't "soft" back then, but they played a style that was unusual for good teams at that time.

Whereas pretty much every other team that had some semblance of a chance at winning the Cup played the trap and/or a structured defensive game, the Maple Leafs played sort of a pre Dead Puck era free-wheeling type of game. They played with very little structure defensively and weren't particularly disciplined. They were not "soft" and had some players who liked to hit, but they were more of an aggressive forechecking and attacking team than a team that would use physicality to make things tough on the opposition defensively.

They were entertaining to watch, mixing an early 90s offensive style with DPE physicality and violence, but they weren't going to win in that era without Hasek-like goaltending for an entire playoff run.

 

[GlitchMarner]

The Leafs now are similar to the Quinn era Leafs in that they can score goals but are poor structurally and defensively in comparison to other good teams. Of course, they're not as tough or as aggressive physically nowadays, but the NHL as a whole is tame in that regard compared to the late 90s and early to mid 2000s.

 

[67Leafs67]

Despite this being a series that went to seven games, three of which went to overtime (2x double OT, 1x triple OT), this series wasn't particularly close.

Philadelphia outshot Toronto 282-189 (an average of 40-27 per game, and ~60% of total shots), and outscored them 24-16. Part of this came down to Toronto's lack of discipline...they spent 83 minutes in the sin-bin compared to Philadelphia's 65 minutes, numbers reflective of their regular season play. Toronto's truculence seemed to get them in trouble, as they were outscored 5-3 with the man advantage, but even at ES, they were outscored 18-11. All three of Toronto's wins were either Belfour playing brilliant hockey, or Cechmanek putting in a horrid performance. There wasn't really a game in this series where they just outplayed the Flyers and got the win.

Also, Toronto was not nearly as deep of a team as Philadelphia, even if their absolute top-end players outshone the Flyers'. However, by the time the playoffs rolled around, a lot of Toronto's top performers seemed to be worn out or injured (possibly due to age - they were the 2nd oldest team in the NHL behind Detroit, featuring 38 year old Housley, 37 year old Belfour, 36 year olds Lumme, Roberts, & Corson, and 34 year olds Svehla, Wesley, & Fitzgerald). Only 7 players on the roster were under 30, and only 2 players were under 25 (Kaberle & Antropov). The Flyers also had their share of older players, but aside from Weinrich (36), none were 35 or over (most in the 30-33 range), and they also had 10 guys under 30. They just had more youth, and were able to spread their minutes out, and trust younger, faster, fitter players with important roles in a long series with lots of long games.

Age​	PHI​	TOR​
34+​	3​	8​
30-33​	11​	8​
25-29​	6​	5​
20-24​	4​	2​
Total​	24​	23​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[LeafsNation75]

Despite this being a series that went to seven games, three of which went to overtime (2x double OT, 1x triple OT), this series wasn't particularly close.

Philadelphia outshot Toronto 282-189 (an average of 40-27 per game, and ~60% of total shots), and outscored them 24-16. Part of this came down to Toronto's lack of discipline...they spent 83 minutes in the sin-bin compared to Philadelphia's 65 minutes, numbers reflective of their regular season play. Toronto's truculence seemed to get them in trouble, as they were outscored 5-3 with the man advantage, but even at ES, they were outscored 18-11. All three of Toronto's wins were either Belfour playing brilliant hockey, or Cechmanek putting in a horrid performance. There wasn't really a game in this series where they just outplayed the Flyers and got the win.

Also, Toronto was not nearly as deep of a team as Philadelphia, even if their absolute top-end players outshone the Flyers'. However, by the time the playoffs rolled around, a lot of Toronto's top performers seemed to be worn out or injured (possibly due to age - they were the 2nd oldest team in the NHL behind Detroit, featuring 38 year old Housley, 37 year old Belfour, 36 year olds Lumme, Roberts, & Corson, and 34 year olds Svehla, Wesley, & Fitzgerald). Only 7 players on the roster were under 30, and only 2 players were under 25 (Kaberle & Antropov). The Flyers also had their share of older players, but aside from Weinrich (36), none were 35 or over (most in the 30-33 range), and they also had 10 guys under 30. They just had more youth, and were able to spread their minutes out, and trust younger, faster, fitter players with important roles in a long series with lots of long games.

Age​	PHI​	TOR​
34+​	3​	8​
30-33​	11​	8​
25-29​	6​	5​
20-24​	4​	2​
Total​	24​	23​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's just funny seeing Phil Housley name as a member of the Maple Leafs, because I remember when Quinn traded for him to the 2003 trade deadline he was injured and only played 1 regular season game which was their 82nd game against Ottawa. As for the playoffs series against the Flyers he only played in 3/7 games.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

They had enough depth to make a run and it was close for 6 games... Were the Flyers simply the better team or were the Leafs banged up?

Keith Primeu decided to be the best player in the world for two months is pretty much why.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Keith Primeu decided to be the best player in the world for two months is pretty much why.

You are thinking of their 2004 series when Primeau had 3 goals, 2 assists and points in 6 games.

In 2003 his stats were 1 goals and 1 assist in 7 games.

2003 NHL Eastern Conference Quarter-Finals: PHI vs. TOR | Hockey-Reference.com

2004 NHL Eastern Conference Semi-Finals: PHI vs. TOR | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Skin Tape Session]

You are thinking of their 2004 series when Primeau had 3 goals, 2 assists and points in 6 games.

In 2003 his stats were 1 goals and 1 assist in 7 games.

Ah yes, so long ago, those series just blur.. together...

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

f***in roman cechmanek.

god i hate that name...

 

[LeafsNation75]

f***in roman cechmanek.

god i hate that name...

I said this before and I will say it again. Despite Toronto having Ed Belfour who had the career success of winning the Stanley Cup in 1999, plus the Vezina in 1991 and 1993, they still lost in back to back seasons against Roman Cechmanek and Robert Esche.

 

[supermann_98]

I seem to remember them having more grit than us. They certainly rattled McCabe and Kaberle. McCabe kept taking penalties and turned the puck over.

This, McCabe played hot potato with the puck this series more than he played hockey

 

[Nooodles]

Because Kyle Dubas turned 18 that year.
That's why.

 

[ACC1224]

Because Kyle Dubas turned 18 that year.
That's why.

Seemed much longer ago than that.

 

[hoglund]

I think the Leafs played well, but the Flyers goaltending was hotter than the Leafs.

 

[markh100]

Wrote this up about the 2003/04 season, because when you name a season by year, you usually use the year the season started in. I have vivid memories of the 2003/04 playoffs, because it was the last time we saw them for 10 years. I didn't realize how badly they were going to be impacted by the lockout and salary cap.

I was shocked when Roenick's shot went in. From 1993 to 2003, Toronto had a pretty good amount of playoff success. 4 trips to the conference finals in a 10 year span. At the time, I believe I remember hearing that Toronto had more playoff series wins than any other team during that stretch. Toronto's club was stacked that year, and I expected them to make the cup finals. Philly also had a really deep roster that year, though I do remember being surprised at how stacked they seemed for a second round match-up.

It's crazy looking back, and thinking these clubs were stacked, but when you look at hockeydb, only 1 player from each team had more than 58 points - wow, we settled for some terrible hockey in the late dead puck era. Philly's top goal scorer, Recchi, had 26 goals.

But seriously - half that line-up could be in the hall-of-fame: Sundin, Leetch, Francis, Mogilny, Belfour, Roberts, Kaberle, Nieuwendyk, Nolan, McCabe, with a supporting cast that included Tucker, Antropov, Reichel, Renberg, Ponikarovsky, Klee and Domi. No way you can put a roster anything near that together in the salary cap era.

 

[zeke]

But seriously - half that line-up could be in the hall-of-fame: Sundin, Leetch, Francis, Mogilny, Belfour, Roberts, Kaberle, Nieuwendyk, Nolan, McCabe, with a supporting cast that included Tucker, Antropov, Reichel, Renberg, Ponikarovsky, Klee and Domi. No way you can put a roster anything near that together in the salary cap era.

Sundin 32 ------------ Matthews 22
Mogilny 34 ---------- Marner 22
Nolan 31 ------------- Nylander 23

Nieuwendyk 37 --- Tavares 29
Roberts 37 ----------- Hyman 27
Antropov 23 -------- Mikheyev 25

Reichel 32 ------------ Kerfoot 25
Tucker 28 ------------- Kapanen 23
Ponikarovsky 23 -- Johnsson 25

Francis 40 ------------ Spezza 36
Fitzgerald 35 -------- Engvall 24
Domi 34 --------------- Clifford 29

Kilger 27 --------------- Gauthier 24
Stajan 20 --------------- Malgin 22
Wilm 25 ---------------- Robertson 18


Kaberle 25 ------------ Rielly 25
McCabe 28 ------------ Muzzin 30

Leetch 35 -------------- Barrie 28
Klee 32 ------------------ Holl 27

Berg 26 ----------------- Ceci 26
Marchment 34 ------ Dermott 23

Johansson 36 --------- Sandin 19
Pilar 26 ----------------- Marincin 27


Belfour 38 ------------- Andersen 29
Kidd 31 ----------------- Campbell 27

 

[Morbo]

Those teams were good but took way too many penalties and were older/injury prone as well.

 

[slozo]

I actually remember this series fairly well, and I was also puzzled at how we lost . . . from my memory, it was because their top 2 lines outplayed our top 2 lines, and specifically Roenick, Recchi and Amonte were a force and they outplayed Sundin and Mogilny.

Roenick was a great player, wasn't any shame in it, but still frustrating nonetheless.

 

[Swervin81]

The main memory I have of that series is Corson just up and quitting because he was mad about being scratched. Right in the middle of a playoff series. Seriously, I can't believe such a notorious locker room cancer somehow managed to captain two NHL teams (predictably, he got stripped of both captaincies). Drama just followed the guy.

That said, the problem is that team just wasn't good enough. The team had a severe lack of depth in skill when stacked up on paper with the best in the forward department and no depth on D. The lack of parity/top heavy league (partially a consequence of rapid expansion and mostly the consequence of a lack of cap) and really weak eastern conference made the roster as a whole look a lot better than it actually was.

 

[Tairy Greene]

They were a tough match up for us and we were a bit burned out. The Carolina series from 2002 haunts me way more than this one. I really thought we were going to win and punch our ticket to the finals but we just sort of fizzled out in anticlimactic fashion.

 

[mikeyz]

Despite this being a series that went to seven games, three of which went to overtime (2x double OT, 1x triple OT), this series wasn't particularly close.

Philadelphia outshot Toronto 282-189 (an average of 40-27 per game, and ~60% of total shots), and outscored them 24-16. Part of this came down to Toronto's lack of discipline...they spent 83 minutes in the sin-bin compared to Philadelphia's 65 minutes, numbers reflective of their regular season play. Toronto's truculence seemed to get them in trouble, as they were outscored 5-3 with the man advantage, but even at ES, they were outscored 18-11. All three of Toronto's wins were either Belfour playing brilliant hockey, or Cechmanek putting in a horrid performance. There wasn't really a game in this series where they just outplayed the Flyers and got the win.

Also, Toronto was not nearly as deep of a team as Philadelphia, even if their absolute top-end players outshone the Flyers'. However, by the time the playoffs rolled around, a lot of Toronto's top performers seemed to be worn out or injured (possibly due to age - they were the 2nd oldest team in the NHL behind Detroit, featuring 38 year old Housley, 37 year old Belfour, 36 year olds Lumme, Roberts, & Corson, and 34 year olds Svehla, Wesley, & Fitzgerald). Only 7 players on the roster were under 30, and only 2 players were under 25 (Kaberle & Antropov). The Flyers also had their share of older players, but aside from Weinrich (36), none were 35 or over (most in the 30-33 range), and they also had 10 guys under 30. They just had more youth, and were able to spread their minutes out, and trust younger, faster, fitter players with important roles in a long series with lots of long games.

Age​	PHI​	TOR​
34+​	3​	8​
30-33​	11​	8​
25-29​	6​	5​
20-24​	4​	2​
Total​	24​	23​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Looking back at that series now, I am kinda glad we lost to them, because IMO, Ottawa would have broken their losing streak and pulled our pants down had we somehow won that game 7.

 

[67Leafs67]

Looking back at that series now, I am kinda glad we lost to them, because IMO, Ottawa would have broken their losing streak and pulled our pants down had we somehow won that game 7.

Yeah most likely. A big reason that Toronto consistently beat Ottawa was that they got incredible goaltending performances in those series, as well as bad performances from Ottawa goalies. Prime examples would be CuJo in 2001, and on the other side, Lalime in 2004 (particularly Game 7 and the Nieuwendyk goals). Of course, it could've happened again in '03, Belfour was a good goalie after all. But it would've had to be a much better performance than he put in against Philly.

In 2003, Ottawa definitely looked like the superior team on paper (which wasn't necessarily the case in 2000 & 2002). 113 points to 98. A +81 GD to a +28. Overall better special teams (and better discipline, spending ~3 minutes more than opposition on the PP per game, the opposite of Toronto). They controlled 54.5% of shots all season compared to Toronto's 47.0%. In addition, their roster was over 4 years younger than Toronto's on average. Of course anything can happen in a best of seven series. But if there was any year that Ottawa was primed to break the streak, it was '03.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Looking back at that series now, I am kinda glad we lost to them, because IMO, Ottawa would have broken their losing streak and pulled our pants down had we somehow won that game 7.

Since Toronto had defeated Ottawa in 2000, 2001, and 2002, was it a guarantee the Leafs don't defeat them in 2003? Yes I know the Senators finished 1st overall in the standings, however it would have been like their 2001 series. That year Ottawa had home ice, were the #2 seed and Toronto was the #7 seed. The end result was Toronto sweeping them despite all that.