Who's the better Ronaldo, Brazilian or Portuguese?

[MrFunnyWobbl]

How is this a contest? CR7.

 

[Evilo]

Ah yes, never a factor.

Sorry, very much a factor when he missed his PK

 

[YNWA14]

Terrible. Complete passenger/non-factor indeed.

He also didn't miss his penalty...Cech guessed right and made a decent save (it wasn't a great shot, but not awful either).

This is a penalty miss:

 

[Evilo]

Haha, I don't care about Messi, anyone wth half a brain knows he's better. He also tore down some teams in CL finals.

Ronaldo never did. He never elevated to the moment.
You can try to twist anyway you want, he never did, period.

Anyway, we're hijacking this thread, which is about Ronaldo/C Ronalod, not CR's place in the history of the game (which isn't top 5).

 

[YNWA14]

Ronaldo never did. He never elevated to the moment.
You can try to twist anyway you want, he never did, period.

2008 CL final aside, where he definitely 'elevated' to the moment (actually 2008 in general he was completely dominant), what about all his other big game performances? What about dragging Portugal to the World Cup that almost certainly tipped the Ballon d'Or in his favour that year (vs. Sweden), or his performance against Barcelona in the Copa in 2011, or when he essentially clinched the title for RM by beating Barcelona in 11/12? Among many other clutch moments in his career of course breaking records in the CL, winning a ton of trophies where he was a big factor with United, etc.

A big game performance doesn't have to come in a final. Especially when you consider that it's such an insignificant sample size when compared to the rest of his career. He's risen to the occasion plenty of times in big games. You can try to twist that any way you want, but his record speaks for itself (and no, he's not better than Messi and nobody said that he was).

You can most certainly make the argument for him being a top 5 player all time, and that he's better than R9 (peak, prime or career).

 

[Live in the Now]

No, you can't make an argument for him being top five all time.

I think that point is a completely valid one.

 

[Corto]

No, you can't make an argument for him being top five all time.

Ridiculous.

His numbers are Lemiuex-esque compared to other non-Messi greats.

He is top 5 or isn't. But you could certainly argue it.

 

[Live in the Now]

To be a top five player the impact made on the game would have to be remarkable. I don't see Ronaldo as I see players like Messi, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer.

 

[The Abusement Park]

To be a top five player the impact made on the game would have to be remarkable. I don't see Ronaldo as I see players like Messi, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer.

There was a point in the late 2000's where Ronaldo was actually better than Messi. And since then he's been very close to Messi's level. I mean maybe the fact that he gets overshadowed by Messi makes it seem like that, but I honestly think CR7 has a great argument of being a top 5 player of all time.

 

[Live in the Now]

The last time Ronaldo was ever better than Messi was in 2007-08 when Messi was 20 years old. Ronaldo was 23 so naturally he'd be better.

 

[YNWA14]

No, you can't make an argument for him being top five all time.

I think that point is a completely valid one.

Yes, you can make that argument pretty easily, whether you agree with it or not (I don't have him in my top 5, but still I could see why someone could or would).

 

[The Abusement Park]

The last time Ronaldo was ever better than Messi was in 2007-08 when Messi was 20 years old. Ronaldo was 23 so naturally he'd be better.

I mean in terms of goal scoring I'm pretty sure he's out scored messi three times since he's been at Real Madrid. He should definitely be in the converstion.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Cristiano has never been as good as Messi. Not even a conversation.

 

[les Habs]

This thread is so laughable. Ronaldo better than Messi in the last 2000s because he scored more goals. Ronaldo carrying his team to titles. Brazilian Ronaldo not even being in the contest. Ronaldo's performance in United's CL win. Messi's performance vs Juventus. Etc, etc. It's bad enough that the Brazilian Ronaldo has been as poorly represented as he has been, but this nonsense about Messi is just ridiculous. VERY clear that people haven't seen the players play consistently and if they have they can't separate a good performance from a bad one. What's worse is that the arguments are pretty much reliant on stats and numbers with basically nothing about performance. The closest post to being about performance shouldn't have even been posted.

Ronaldo in the Messi conversation.

 

[YNWA14]

 

[The Abusement Park]

This thread is so laughable. Ronaldo better than Messi in the last 2000s because he scored more goals. Ronaldo carrying his team to titles. Brazilian Ronaldo not even being in the contest. Ronaldo's performance in United's CL win. Messi's performance vs Juventus. Etc, etc. It's bad enough that the Brazilian Ronaldo has been as poorly represented as he has been, but this nonsense about Messi is just ridiculous. VERY clear that people haven't seen the players play consistently and if they have they can't separate a good performance from a bad one. What's worse is that the arguments are pretty much reliant on stats and numbers with basically nothing about performance. The closest post to being about performance shouldn't have even been posted.

Ronaldo in the Messi conversation.

Yeah, how dare we back up our statements with stats and facts... Just ridiculous.

 

[Corto]

Cristiano has never been as good as Messi. Not even a conversation.

What with the "not even a conversation" and "not even close" stuff here?

First of all, I think Messi is the best ever.
That said, the ONLY one to in fact be in the conversation with him is actually Ronaldo.

Their numbers, trophies and achievements (individual and team) are so far beyond anything ever done by anyone else in football that you can only compare the two of them to each other.

Yes, Messi is better, but people saying Messi is GOAT yet Cristiano is on par or worse than (mind you great) players like R9 or Ronaldinho are way off base.

Just to give you a clear picture of how far these two are ahead of everyone else, and how far ahead they are compared to anyone else in history, here's a graph with their production from 2010 onwards.

Noone has ever been so far ahead of the pack as these two have been.
Goals and assists. Add to that the individual honors and all the team trophies (both won the CL 3 times btw, both have 2 goals in those 3 finals, I really don't buy the "CR7 in big games" myth), and now Ronaldo has a EURO with a very pedestrian Portuguese side...

Again...
My point is, yes, IMO, Messi is better. He is the greatest ever.
But saying Ronaldo is "not in the conversation" and is somewhere "on par or below" or R9/Ronaldinho etc. is being oblivious to reality.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Please stop replying to me with accumulated goal totals. I've only told you about 5 times what's wrong with them. I don't care about the narrative of Cristiano's career, either. I care about the impact he had on a game at his best, and it was nowhere close to Messi or a number of his other contemporaries.

 

[les Habs]

I did a search for something and saw a similar conversation from a few years ago where somebody decided to compare Messi vs. R9. I borrowed a lot of things I posted there and put them here.

I'll provide some context as to my opinion and I don't think stats are particularly necessary for what I'm about to say.

This era is probably the best La Liga has ever been. Actually not very much probably about it. There are regular fixtures in the final of the Champions League. Of course Ronaldo is on one of those teams, so that argument doesn't do a whole lot in his favor. However, the Europa League sure shows the quality of the league from top to bottom. Spanish coaching and youth development during this era has also not been better. Even lower quality teams having the ability to purchase players from other leagues has contributed to the growth of Spanish football.

The context lacking in these stats is that Spanish football was more tactical than it is now and that the quality as well as how the game is played between then and now is incomparable. I didn't say Ronaldo's goal totals with Barcelona were unimpressive. I did say if one was to be pedantic, they could easily pick them apart. They could easily pick them apart in any of his seasons. That's definitely true as well and applies to all sorts of other players. If somebody was going to be an idiot, they could easily point out Messi's international scoring record and say some garbage about how the best quality opponents he's scored against in tournaments are Nigeria 2014 and Mexico 2007. This is also unquestionably the truth. That's the point I'm trying to make. Being pedantic about who somebody scored against unless they never scored against any decent team is a foolish exercise.

Penalty goals alone doesn't account for who won those penalties. They are no less or more legitimate than any other goal. This also doesn't account for assists or much of anything else.

The problem with team comparisons like that is that Barcelona team also had Figo, Stoichkov, and Luis Enrique. That is not what would be considered a bad attacking side by the vast majority of people out there. So at some point based on those numbers, there has to be a mass reevaluation of what players like Figo and Stoichkov actually did. I don't think anyone would consider them to be worse players than Bale and Benzema either. Perhaps at those stages of their careers, but even then a lot of people would have a hard time admitting it.

That same team minus Ronaldo and Robson and plus Rivaldo and van Gaal went on to win the league when the former didn't. I always thought Rivaldo was better than Ronaldo in the World Cup when they both won it and made the final in 1998. I don't place much value on Portugal winning the tournament a few weeks ago nor Brazil winning the WC in 2002. Neither of those teams was that good and neither of them faced much good competition. When looking for a point where international football went off the rails and started to be worse than the club game I think that's a good place to start. Sorry for the tangent there.

This thread is a waste of my time, so you'll forgive my short reply. That said while I appreciate your context and agree to an extent (and personally from a career standpoint, not a talent standpoint, I can see a case for Ronaldo), there are some things that I definitely disagree with here.

-Despite the presence of el Pistolero, Lucho and Judas, that Barça squad doesn't match that Madrid squad you're referring to. I hate to say that, but other than a couple of positions it's not as good a squad. And that Stoichkov wasn't quite the same as the one who played in the Dream Team.

-I agree that La Liga is better and with fewer teams in the top flight that's probably going to be the case. Still both Madrid and Barça are super teams compared to their sides back then and I would also argue that there was more parity up and down the table then as compared to now.

-The same team making the swaps that you noted provides little context. For starters there were more changes than just those, though I wouldn't argue that. On top of that you're not mentioning what Barça won that season under Robson nor are you accounting for the changes that Madrid went through. Capello was gone for the almighty Heynckes and they dropped to fourth.

-Penalties aren't less legitimate as they count the same, but they provide a lot of context in the example that was provided. If you're going to analyze a performance you can go to the nth degree and in which case you can factor in such things as penalties and competition.

Anyway, like I said, this thread is a waste of time, but at least you can provide some context.

Yeah, how dare we back up our statements with stats and facts... Just ridiculous.

Like such facts as Ronaldo having the second highest footbal IQ in the game. Right.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Like such facts as Ronaldo having the second highest footbal IQ in the game. Right.

Ok, that argument fair enough. But at the same time, isn't that a little hypocritical since you used !Q in your argument as well? Anyways whatever, I believe that CR7 is one of the best to ever play, guess you're pretty adamant that he's not. No biggie.

 

[Corto]

Please stop replying to me with accumulated goal totals. I've only told you about 5 times what's wrong with them.

And none of it is based in logic and reason.
It's not like there are people scoring 35 or 40 goals all over the place.
Other than Higuain and Suarez last year, it's only been Messi and Ronaldo scoring goals in the 30s and 40s over the last 10 years, with only Ibrahimovic 38 that one year in Paris (in a league sub-par compared to Spain).
So 3 players, each only once, and Messi and Ronaldo constantly producing more than that, every year.

It's goals and assists on sides winning championships and CLs.
Why would one NOT care about it?
You "not caring" doesn't make it any less true.

Like I said, in 14-15 Ronaldo gets 48 goals, 16 assists.
Messi gets 43 goals, 21 ssists.
3rd highest scorer had 22 goals. Not 40. Not 35 or 30. Not even 25.
Can you not see what a massive difference that is? Can you not see you can't attribute it to penalties and silly adjustments?

I care about the impact he had on a game at his best, and it was nowhere close to Messi or a number of his other contemporaries.

Messi, sure. He's the Wayne Gretzky of football IMO.
Other contemporaries?
Please.

 

[Deficient Mode]

And none of it is based in logic and reason.
It's not like there are people scoring 35 or 40 goals all over the place.
Other than Higuain and Suarez last year, it's only been Messi and Ronaldo scoring goals in the 30s and 40s over the last 10 years, with only Ibrahimovic 38 that one year in Paris (in a league sub-par compared to Spain).
So 3 players, each only once, and Messi and Ronaldo constantly producing more than that, every year.

It's goals and assists on sides winning championships and CLs.
Why would one NOT care about it?
You "not caring" doesn't make it any less true.

Like I said, in 14-15 Ronaldo gets 48 goals, 16 assists.
Messi gets 43 goals, 21 ssists.
3rd highest scorer had 22 goals. Not 40. Not 35 or 30. Not even 25.
Can you not see what a massive difference that is? Can you not see you can't attribute it to penalties and silly adjustments?



Messi, sure. He's the Wayne Gretzky of football IMO.
Other contemporaries?
Please.

It is based on reason. You have provided zero justification for the equivalence you're making between goal totals and value/impact. In fact, I don't there is any statistical justification around yet; the vast majority of fans just assume that all the best players are those who score the most goals.

Football is not a chaotic sport like hockey; more than half the players on the field will rarely if ever score any goals.

 

[YNWA14]

There's a reason goal scoring is viewed with the most value. You can't win if you don't score. You play to win. Scoring is the ultimate objective of any passage of play from any team in possession of the ball, every team wants the ball, and they want the ball so they can put it in the back of the other team's net.

There's obviously a lot more to soccer than just that moment when the ball goes in the net, but making that happen is one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing, to make happen in the sport.

 

[Evilo]

You should really have a talk with Guy Roux. He'll tell you a thing or two about trying to have the ball

 

[gary69]

To be a top five player the impact made on the game would have to be remarkable. I don't see Ronaldo as I see players like Messi, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer.

It is based on reason. You have provided zero justification for the equivalence you're making between goal totals and value/impact. In fact, I don't there is any statistical justification around yet; the vast majority of fans just assume that all the best players are those who score the most goals.

Football is not a chaotic sport like hockey; more than half the players on the field will rarely if ever score any goals.

Yep, I agree with the bolded opinions.

The impact and value of Cristiano Ronaldo as a goal scorer in La Liga is really not that different from the likes of Hugo Sanchez, Telmo Zarra or only somewhat more meaningful than say Quini.

Generational impact, for sure, scoring like this doesn't happen every decade, but near all time best, no.

It's not really big news that great players score a lot, especially if the team's tactics are geared in such a way that one guy is supposed to finish most of the chances.