Who would Detroit take at 4?

[Bench]

He is going to be a HHOF guy, people should start making peace with that in terms of the crowd that looks down on him.

Basically. He was the starting goalie for a Cup win, a Cup finals appearance, and the primary goalie for most of the playoffs for one of their Cup wins.

He's got nearly 1000 NHL games to his name and has made trips to the Cup finals 3 times on two teams. Talk about a first world team problem if that's a "low value" top draft pick.

Of course, he's been the lone detriment that cost the Penguins from winning 10 straight Cups. As if 4 appearances to the finals during his Penguins tenure wasn't enough. It's so silly. The standards goalies must accomplish that we don't hold to players like Datsyuk.

You guys want some real talk? Pavel Datsyuk is the statistical MAF of forwards. Yeah. I said it.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

He is smaller than both those guys in terms of reach by a decent amount, a worse skater he is in the neighborhood of broken back Z for me and plays a grinding style.

Of course he's a worse skater than Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their primes- he's 18 years old. Both of those players had more severe skating issues as prospects than Rossi does. And both players, while on the smaller side, were excellent two-way centers despite never developing great straight-line speed.

Rossi is shorter than those guys, and if that scares you off that's fair enough. But every prospect in this range has drawbacks. With both Rossi and Perfetti, I can't fault a GM for betting on these guys to overcome their height issues considering how damn good they were in juniors.

There is also no real case for drafting this kind of player in the top 10.

This statement is so exaggerated that it's hard for me to believe you're discussing Rossi in good faith.

The case is pretty simple- he's a center who led the entire CHL in points, while playing a really well-rounded, 200-foot game. You really can't ask for much more production from a draft eligible player.

Are there compelling concerns about how his game translates to the NHL, how he benefited from the strength of his team, how he beat up on weaker teams, etc.? Of course there are, and if those concerns are alarming enough that you don't see him as a top 10 guy that's entirely fair. But to see that there is "no real case for drafting this kind of player in the top 10" is, frankly, outrageous.

But man it is the most angry I will have been with this franchise in a long time if they pick him #4. Like turn off the draft and go do something else angry. I will root for him, but it will take me a good few weeks to get over that one if I am being honest.

Hey, that's fair man. We all want to see the Wings play good hockey again, and this is an important pick. If you think we missed, that's gonna sting. Something to keep in mind- our brass (Yzerman, Draper, Anderson, Devellano, Osgood, etc.) know a lot of these kids' game inside and out (Pefetti, Raymond, Holtz, etc.) If we take Rossi at 4, which I don't think will happen, it means that those guys all sized up Rossi's weaknesses and still determined that he was the best option at 4. Not to say that their opinion is infallible, because they've all got it wrong in the past, but at the end of the day it is their job on the line here.

 

[Kingpin794]

Perfetti one more year in CHL and then
Perfetti-Rasmussen-Svechnikov

Yuck

And I mostly mean that because of Svech. He's not going to be an NHL regular. If you're going to draft Perfetti, you better damn well give him Zadina on his line.

 

[SirloinUB]

Basically. He was the starting goalie for a Cup win, a Cup finals appearance, and the primary goalie for most of the playoffs for one of their Cup wins.

He's got nearly 1000 NHL games to his name and has made trips to the Cup finals 3 times on two teams. Talk about a first world team problem if that's a "low value" top draft pick.

Of course, he's been the lone detriment that cost the Penguins from winning 10 straight Cups. As if 4 appearances to the finals during his Penguins tenure wasn't enough. It's so silly. The standards goalies must accomplish that we don't hold to players like Datsyuk.

You guys want some real talk? Pavel Datsyuk is the statistical MAF of forwards. Yeah. I said it.

This just completely glosses over the stacked team he played for with two franchise level HHOF centres, one of them being a top 5 player of all time. Let’s not pretend Fleury was the Singular reason those teams went to the finals. Crosby and Malkin combined for 49 points in 20 games for the 08 loss, and 38 points in 24 games for the 09 win with Malkin (not fleury) winning the conn smythe, the 16 cup had 3 top 5 draft picks scoring 20 points and the 17 cup had Malkin and Sid combining for 55 points in 25 games with Sid winning the conn smythe. The franchise level centres were the drivers of those appearances. That’s reinforced with Fleury taking a back seat in 18, indicating that he was more a cog in the machine than a driver.

to be clear, I think Fleury has had an excellent career, and we could do a lot worse with a 4th overall selection. But let’s not misrepresent how those cup appearances happened.

Which brings us to the very crux of the conversation, passing on a potential high end skater in favour of a goalie. Some of your posts are reading like you think people are arguing we don’t need good goaltending, which is not the case. Everyone agrees that it’s essential, but the discussion is on where/how to obtain it.
.

If Askarov has a price/fleury level career he’d be an excellent choice. But given the choice (and to keep it apples to apples) I’d prefer to build around Kopitar/Staal/Suter type of players.

If you don’t believe that any of the skaters can have that type of impact, that’s fair. But I’m not passing an the opportunity to obtain that kind of skater for that kind of goalie.

The end goal is to have good players across your line up. Take a look at the top skaters every year vs the top goalies. The top skaters are more consistently high end draft picks however with goalies, their is a much larger mix in where they were collectively drafted. This is why most people want us picking a skater over a goalie at 4th overall. Not because good goalies aren’t Important but because it’s more difficult to obtain top skaters without top draft capital compared to goalies. for all price has accomplished he hasnt carried the Habs to any significant team success and that’s because they have lacked quality skaters.

to be fair, if we’re choosing between Horton or fleury, I’ll take Fleury, but personally, I’m not convinced that’s the case. We all have our different opinions on these prospects and that’s awesome. But I’d prefer we go for a potential elite skater than potential elite goalie.

For shits and giggles I’d also like to add that part of me would kind of love to see us trade back with the devils and select Askarov at 8 and Lundell at 11 though but I’m higher on Lundell than most. But given the choice between Raymond/Perfetti or Askarov, I’d prefer one of the two forwards.

 

[Bench]

Let’s not pretend Fleury was the Singular reason those teams went to the finals.

Not even close to what I'd ever dream of arguing. A goalie can't win alone. Hasek in '99 came as close as anyone ever could.

But you don't just luck into all his success as a backseat driver. Some folks here want to wave away a guy like him as being more harm than good, and that's where it gets wild. Ah yes, the harmful guy with a long, successful career where he keeps going deep in the playoffs. Sign me up for some of those detrimental dudes on our current team of champions. MAF had some monster playoff series, including in '17 where he posted 9 of the required 16 wins for that run. Then the very next year is back in the finals, on a different team, busting out another 13 playoff wins. It's not a big coincidence. Dude is good. Good players win games.

If we're going with the "stacked team" argument you can say the same for Datsyuk often playing second or third fiddle to Zetterberg and Lidstrom. And some playoffs he was like... 4th or 5th fiddle behind guys like Franzen. Love Datsyuk, but I'm showing how easy it is to massage away credit by propping up others around him.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This statement is so exaggerated that it's hard for me to believe you're discussing Rossi in good faith.

The case is pretty simple- he's a center who led the entire CHL in points, while playing a really well-rounded, 200-foot game. You really can't ask for much more production from a draft eligible player.

Are there compelling concerns about how his game translates to the NHL, how he benefited from the strength of his team, how he beat up on weaker teams, etc.? Of course there are, and if those concerns are alarming enough that you don't see him as a top 10 guy that's entirely fair. But to see that there is "no real case for drafting this kind of player in the top 10" is, frankly, outrageous.

There isn't a player like him that has gone top 10... It is the reason people keep naming low round prospects that hit massively, that much is a fact. That the same crowd wants to do that while calling him NHL ready is another rough selling point for me in this argument. Those other guys had several years to round there games and were nowhere close to ready so which is it...

Nic Petan was the last draft eligible minnow to lead his league in scoring without great skating. Played first line center on a powerhouse team and went in the second round.

Closest I have come up with top 10 pick wise is really Sam Gagner over the last 20 years. Even he was bigger and a little better skater at the time.

 

[SirloinUB]

Not even close to what I'd ever dream of arguing. A goalie can't win alone. Hasek in '99 came as close as anyone ever could.

But you don't just luck into all his success as a backseat driver. Some folks here want to wave away a guy like him as being more harm than good, and that's where it gets wild. Ah yes, the harmful guy with a long, successful career where he keeps going deep in the playoffs. Sign me up for some of those detrimental dudes on our current team of champions. MAF had some monster playoff series, including in '17 where he posted 9 of the required 16 wins for that run. Then the very next year is back in the finals, on a different team, busting out another 13 playoff wins. It's not a big coincidence. Dude is good. Good players win games.

If we're going with the "stacked team" argument you can say the same for Datsyuk often playing second or third fiddle to Zetterberg and Lidstrom. And some playoffs he was like... 4th or 5th fiddle behind guys like Franzen. Love Datsyuk, but I'm showing how easy it is to massage away credit by propping up others around him.

Fleury also railroaded some very good Penguins teams. Thinking of that Flyers series were both team’s goalies couldn’t keep the puck out of the net. But my assertion isn’t that Fleury was bad, as I said, we could do a lot worse than fleury at 4th. What I’m saying Is there was a couple skaters that were more important than him in regards to the penguins success.


As for the Datsyuk piece? Come on. The guy was arguably the most or second most impactful player for his career and was consistently our top scorer. His GAR was second only to Crosby for the duration of his career and His on ice impact, was simply dominant in terms of controlling the play/game. Sure, he was a late round pick but he also proves that with elite skaters you can be a top tier team without elite goaltending. Again, that’s not to say you don’t need good goaltending, but an elite puck possession team can thrive with decent-to good goaltending rather than elite. Hell as a dominant puck possession player, Datsyuk, more than anyone, demonstrates the value in pursuing top tier skaters.

 

[lilidk]

Yuck

And I mostly mean that because of Svech. He's not going to be an NHL regular. If you're going to draft Perfetti, you better damn well give him Zadina on his line.

Svechnikov will rebound this year , last year he wasn't 100%. Second line Fabbri- Veleno-Zadina

 

[Bench]

Fleury also railroaded some very good Penguins teams. Thinking of that Flyers series were both team’s goalies couldn’t keep the puck out of the net.

Yeah that happens when you have a 16 year career. They aren't all diamonds.

As for the Datsyuk piece? Come on. The guy was arguably the most or second most impactful player for his career and was consistently our top scorer. His GAR was second only to Crosby for the duration of his career and His on ice impact, was simply dominant in terms of controlling the play/game. Sure, he was a late round pick but he also proves that with elite skaters you can be a top tier team without elite goaltending. Hell as a dominant puck possession player, Datsyuk, more than anyone, demonstrates the value in pursuing top tier skaters.

There is no world where I consider Datsyuk more impactful than Zetterberg and Lidstrom during their Cup runs. Distant 3rd. And even sometimes 4th when Franzen was setting the world on fire.

And are we talking about playoffs here? Because I was. Datsyuk had some real goose eggs in the playoffs. Nagging injuries that had him unable to help. He scored 1 goal during the entire 2009 playoffs. One.

But here, this will provide a nice summary how I don't think it's wild to say Datsyuk was not our #1 during his career. Zetterberg scored far more consistently, played more minutes. Lidstrom was in the second half of his career during Datsyuk's peak, yet nearly scored as much from the blueline, and played 27 minutes a game. Franzen produced far more goal scoring.

It's just wild to me people critique Hossa's playoff performance in 2009 but I feel like we got basically the same output from him that we did many Datsyuk years.

And keep in mind all of this is within context of me believing Lidstrom and Zetterberg are two of the most dominant playoff performers ever. This isn't a rip on Datsyuk. But the dude wasn't the MVP or even co-MVP of the best teams he played on. That's just how it is. The point of this exercise is to show you can take a great player like Datsyuk and demonstrate how others around him were the real driving force.

If you can do it for Datsyuk, an all-time great, it's a pretty cheap trick. That's all.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

It is the reason people keep naming low round prospects that hit massively, that much is a fact. That the same crowd wants to do that while calling him NHL ready is another rough selling point for me in this argument. Those other guys had several years to round there games and were nowhere close to ready so which is it...

I don't see why it can't be both. NHL readiness doesn't indicate any limit on a player's ceiling. The fact that Rossi is better on draft day than say, Brayden Point, doesn't mean that he can't reach a similar level in the NHL.

There isn't a player like him that has gone top 10...

Then surely the same is true for Perfetti, who has the same drawbacks (undersized center with poor straight-line speed).

The only argument I've heard for why Perfetti can overcome these faults and Rossi can't is this notion that Rossi is more physically developed, which to me is wildly vague and speculative. If anything, I think it's just as easily argued that because Rossi has a strong frame to build on, he's more likely than Perfetti, who seems to have a really slender frame, to compensate for his lack of size in the NHL.

Maybe you have different reasoning as to why Perfetti is more likely to overcome those obstacles, in which case I'm all ears.

But sorry, I'm just not buying the notion that this kid ^^^ doesn't have room to develop physically.

 

[Bench]

But sorry, I'm just not buying the notion that this kid ^^^ doesn't have room to develop physically.

Yeah, so that picture is a pretty vivid reminder we're arguing about children. Pretty funny.

 

[SirloinUB]

Yeah that happens when you have a 16 year career. They aren't all diamonds.



There is no world where I consider Datsyuk more impactful than Zetterberg and Lidstrom during their Cup runs. Distant 3rd. And even sometimes 4th when Franzen was setting the world on fire.

And are we talking about playoffs here? Because I was. Datsyuk had some real goose eggs in the playoffs. Nagging injuries that had him unable to help. He scored 1 goal during the entire 2009 playoffs. One.

But here, this will provide a nice summary how I don't think it's wild to say Datsyuk was not our #1 during his career. Zetterberg scored far more consistently, played more minutes. Lidstrom was in the second half of his career during Datsyuk's peak, yet nearly scored as much from the blueline, and played 27 minutes a game. Franzen produced far more goal scoring.

It's just wild to me people critique Hossa's playoff performance in 2009 but I feel like we got basically the same output from him that we did many Datsyuk years.

And keep in mind all of this is within context of me believing Lidstrom and Zetterberg are two of the most dominant playoff performers ever. This isn't a rip on Datsyuk. But the dude wasn't the MVP or even co-MVP of the best teams he played on. That's just how it is. The point of this exercise is to show you can take a great player like Datsyuk and demonstrate how others around him were the real driving force.

If you can do it for Datsyuk, an all-time great, it's a pretty cheap trick. That's all.

This is all just a distraction from the point at hand. As far as playoffs go I completely agree that Datsyuk was behind Z and Lidstrom during our peak. But that’s a thread for another time. what we are actually discussing is team building and prioritization of draft capital. The key similarity between our cup appearances and the Penguins cup appearances is that a group of skaters were the most valuable pieces of these cup runs. For this reason and the others I mentioned I’d rather us chase elite skating talent at the top of the draft than elite goaltending talent. Again, that’s not to say, you don’t need good goaltending but having dominant skaters in front of him is just as, if not more important. Look at Price and the Habs, the other shining example of elite goaltending from the top of the draft. For all his greatness team success has still alluded him because they have lacked the top end skaters to allow the team to capitalize on his talent.

The old adage is defence wins championships, but it’s literally impossible to win if you can’t score.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I don't see why it can't be both. NHL readiness doesn't indicate any limit on a player's ceiling. The fact that Rossi is better on draft day than say, Brayden Point, doesn't mean that he can't reach a similar level in the NHL.



Then surely the same is true for Perfetti, who has the same drawbacks (undersized center with poor straight-line speed).

The only argument I've heard for why Perfetti can overcome these faults and Rossi can't is this notion that Rossi is more physically developed, which to me is wildly vague and speculative. If anything, I think it's just as easily argued that because Rossi has a strong frame to build on, he's more likely than Perfetti, who seems to have a really slender frame, to compensate for his lack of size in the NHL.

Maybe you have different reasoning as to why Perfetti is more likely to overcome those obstacles, in which case I'm all ears.

But sorry, I'm just not buying the notion that this kid ^^^ doesn't have room to develop physically.

Here’s a big one...Perfetti is the best hockey brain in the draft. He is a legitimate dual threat in the offensive zone, with an NHL caliber shot (which Rossi doesn’t possess, and vision and a feel for the game that is ahead of where Rossi’s is.

The reason why people can see Perfetti overcoming his short comings is quite simple. Perfetti’s style of play at the OHL level relies on his strengths, which will play up at the NHL level. Rossi’s style of play at the OHL level will likely not be an advantage for him at the NHL level.

Hopefully Rossi can find a way to make it work at the NHL level, but the one thing I know is that Perfetti can be true to himself and develop into a first line player. I think Rossi will have to find a way to reinvent his game if he hopes to be.

 

[ricky0034]

Fleury had 4 consecutive years right in the middle of his prime where he had a sub .900 save percentage in the Playoffs EVERY one of those years(and on good teams too)

I think some people forget just how bad he was there for a while,it literally became a meme around this place

 

[Bench]

This is all just a distraction from the point at hand.

It's August and draft still isn't for months. And we have no idea if the NHL can pull off a full season this year.

Distractions are all we have, brother.

As to your point about Carey Price not winning anything, see the huge list of elite top line players that haven't won squat. Thornton, Sedins, Weber, Stamkos, Karlsson, Tavarves, and on and on. For all their greatness team success has eluded them. I'm getting pretty good at having this list memorized by this point, too. I guess what I'm saying is lack of team success doesn't really sway me too much when he's in such elite company.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Here’s a big one...Perfetti is the best hockey brain in the draft. He is a legitimate dual threat in the offensive zone, with an NHL caliber shot (which Rossi doesn’t possess, and vision and a feel for the game that is ahead of where Rossi’s is.

I certainly agree that Perfetti has a better shot than Rossi. His release is excellent, and I think it's one of his biggest strengths.

Not sure I can agree that Perfetti's vision is clearly ahead of Rossi's, that's a pretty big strength for both of them. I also think that Rossi's combativeness in board battles and fore-checking is going to put him in the right position to make plays more often than Perfetti, who I think does less work without the puck on his stick.

As far as their hockey brains and feels for the game, I can't really speak to that. Both players strike me as exceptionally intelligent. If you view one as more so than the other that's fair enough, but I don't think that I can agree that either player has a significant edge in hockey iq or hockey sense.

The reason why people can see Perfetti overcoming his short comings is quite simple. Perfetti’s style of play at the OHL level relies on his strengths, which will play up at the NHL level. Rossi’s style of play at the OHL level will likely not be an advantage for him at the NHL level.

This is what continues to frustrate me about the Perfetti/Rossi conversation. Everyone here seems to agree that Perfetti's game translates better than Rossi's, but no one is really articulating why.

"The reason why people can see Perfetti overcoming his short comings is quite simple. Perfetti’s style of play at the OHL level relies on his strengths, which will play up at the NHL level."

I mean, certainly. I'm struggling to think of a player who's style of play doesn't rely on their strengths, but maybe I'm missing a point here.

"Perfetti’s style of play at the OHL level relies on his strengths, which will play up at the NHL level."

Unless they don't. Again, I don't get why Perfetti's strength are more likely to translate than Rossi's. Hockey IQ, vision, and a quick release are great tools to have. That said, players whose athleticism doesn't catch up to those tools can certainly fail to produce at the NHL level. It seems totally possible to me that Perfetti's skating, strength, and tenacity off the puck don't catch up to his offensive tools, and he doesn't find himself in position to utilize his strengths enough to produce elite offensive numbers. I don't really see why this outcome is any less likely than Rossi struggling to adapt.

Rossi’s style of play at the OHL level will likely not be an advantage for him at the NHL level. Hopefully Rossi can find a way to make it work at the NHL level, but the one thing I know is that Perfetti can be true to himself and develop into a first line player. I think Rossi will have to find a way to reinvent his game if he hopes to be.

Why is Rossi's style of play less likely to be an advantage at the NHL level than Perfetti's? If anything, I think Rossi's well-roundedness makes him more likely to adjust to a higher level. If he were really one-dimensional (like Holtz for example, according to many), I could better understand the concerns. Otherwise I don't see what about his style of play won't be an advantage at the NHL level.

"... the one thing I know is that Perfetti can be true to himself and develop into a first line player."

I guess I'm not totally sure what you mean by this. I agree that Perfetti can develop into a first line player, but I also think he needs to put in a lot of work to get there.

"I think Rossi will have to find a way to reinvent his game if he hopes to be."

I just don't really see why this is the case, or at least why Rossi would more likely have to reinvent his game than Perfetti. I think Rossi, like Perfetti, needs to get a lot better to be a first line caliber player. I'd like to see him strengthen his shot, continue to add muscle so he can work effectively in the corners at higher levels, I think his passing could be more accurate to compliment his excellent vision, etc. But I don't see any bad habits or poor work ethic there that I would try and "reinvent."

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't see why it can't be both. NHL readiness doesn't indicate any limit on a player's ceiling. The fact that Rossi is better on draft day than say, Brayden Point, doesn't mean that he can't reach a similar level in the NHL.



Then surely the same is true for Perfetti, who has the same drawbacks (undersized center with poor straight-line speed).

The only argument I've heard for why Perfetti can overcome these faults and Rossi can't is this notion that Rossi is more physically developed, which to me is wildly vague and speculative. If anything, I think it's just as easily argued that because Rossi has a strong frame to build on, he's more likely than Perfetti, who seems to have a really slender frame, to compensate for his lack of size in the NHL.

Maybe you have different reasoning as to why Perfetti is more likely to overcome those obstacles, in which case I'm all ears.

But sorry, I'm just not buying the notion that this kid ^^^ doesn't have room to develop physically.

Perfetti has elite offensive gifts in terms of his shot, passing and vision. Have 5'11" guys with those gifts made it as wingers, sure. I don't evaluate my interest in Perfetti as a center. I think he has a mid 20's chance at playing center in this league.

I am buying that Rossi's lower-body doesn't have a ton of room for growth so yes his skating isn't robbed by power as is the case with most skating issues with junior status. His shorter choppy strides can be worked on if he wants to go through a stride alteration. Actually encouraging here is Rossi's work ethic, because he is going to have to improve the length of his stride in my opinion, that is where he can make the gains. Again I like Perfetti's stride a great deal when looking at the two.

On Perfetti I would go with either of the Nylander brothers and Keller (he was a better skater for sure) in terms of some of this. Raymond and Perfetti have high end hockey IQ and use that to drive their play which makes them different for me when evaluating them.

But all that is my opinion. I get that it is not shared by man of you.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I certainly agree that Perfetti has a better shot than Rossi. His release is excellent, and I think it's one of his biggest strengths.

Not sure I can agree that Perfetti's vision is clearly ahead of Rossi's, that's a pretty big strength for both of them. I also think that Rossi's combativeness in board battles and fore-checking is going to put him in the right position to make plays more often than Perfetti, who I think does less work without the puck on his stick.

As far as their hockey brains and feels for the game, I can't really speak to that. Both players strike me as exceptionally intelligent. If you view one as more so than the other that's fair enough, but I don't think that I can agree that either player has a significant edge in hockey iq or hockey sense.



This is what continues to frustrate me about the Perfetti/Rossi conversation. Everyone here seems to agree that Perfetti's game translates better than Rossi's, but no one is really articulating why.

"The reason why people can see Perfetti overcoming his short comings is quite simple. Perfetti’s style of play at the OHL level relies on his strengths, which will play up at the NHL level."

I mean, certainly. I'm struggling to think of a player who's style of play doesn't rely on their strengths, but maybe I'm missing a point here.

"Perfetti’s style of play at the OHL level relies on his strengths, which will play up at the NHL level."

Unless they don't. Again, I don't get why Perfetti's strength are more likely to translate than Rossi's. Hockey IQ, vision, and a quick release are great tools to have. That said, players whose athleticism doesn't catch up to those tools can certainly fail to produce at the NHL level. It seems totally possible to me that Perfetti's skating, strength, and tenacity off the puck don't catch up to his offensive tools, and he doesn't find himself in position to utilize his strengths enough to produce elite offensive numbers. I don't really see why this outcome is any less likely than Rossi struggling to adapt.



Why is Rossi's style of play less likely to be an advantage at the NHL level than Perfetti's? If anything, I think Rossi's well-roundedness makes him more likely to adjust to a higher level. If he were really one-dimensional (like Holtz for example, according to many), I could better understand the concerns. Otherwise I don't see what about his style of play won't be an advantage at the NHL level.

"... the one thing I know is that Perfetti can be true to himself and develop into a first line player."

I guess I'm not totally sure what you mean by this. I agree that Perfetti can develop into a first line player, but I also think he needs to put in a lot of work to get there.

"I think Rossi will have to find a way to reinvent his game if he hopes to be."

I just don't really see why this is the case, or at least why Rossi would more likely have to reinvent his game than Perfetti. I think Rossi, like Perfetti, needs to get a lot better to be a first line caliber player. I'd like to see him strengthen his shot, continue to add muscle so he can work effectively in the corners at higher levels, I think his passing could be more accurate to compliment his excellent vision, etc. But I don't see any bad habits or poor work ethic there that I would try and "reinvent."

If I had to go with the player Rossi is modeled after and @newfy has said this a lot it is Crosby... He plays a grinding style. He wills a lot of what happens and yes Rossi can do that at the junior level. I think he will be able to do it against some of the lower level guys in the NHL and I think he will play there. To be clear my contention is never that I don't think Rossi is going to have a career. I just am very dubious on his ceiling and think it is a long shot for him to be a first line kind of player or one of your best 4 forwards up front on a good team. That what he does well at in the NHL comes against guys that are so much better at taking away those openings and places of the ice away, with a brutal efficiency.

That his ability to battle on the boards is amazing, heck this is something that always followed around Hicketts by the way, but ultimately he is outgunned at the NHL level. That smaller guys that last in this league are elusive, they find dead zones, they are exceptional explosive skaters and while some mix in a lot of strength like a Marchand, they have a lot of really hard qualities and it took him a while to even figure that out. They are slow burn prospects in terms of the ones that make it.

So I am left again to question is Rossi an outlier, is he an even smaller Crosby that combines amazing work ethic, lower body strength to make his playing style work. I know you think he will get stronger, but his ability to thrive in the league to me is him developing more elusiveness, explosion and just general skating. He is an industrious player, I really actually respect Rossi's game on levels that I know people probably won't believe. My issue is I don't see how he is going to play it up with the most gifted hockey players in the world... I just don't know, especially as you swim to the highest lines where you're playing the top 60 in the world at their position. It is exponentially tougher to do. If we pick him I will be rooting for him, I just am going to be pretty crushed on draft night. I think he will be an easy guy to root for though, he isn't going to cheat you on effort, most grinders don't.

 

[Frk It]

There is no world where I consider Datsyuk more impactful than Zetterberg and Lidstrom during their Cup runs. Distant 3rd. And even sometimes 4th when Franzen was setting the world on fire.

And are we talking about playoffs here? Because I was. Datsyuk had some real goose eggs in the playoffs. Nagging injuries that had him unable to help. He scored 1 goal during the entire 2009 playoffs. One.

But here, this will provide a nice summary how I don't think it's wild to say Datsyuk was not our #1 during his career. Zetterberg scored far more consistently, played more minutes. Lidstrom was in the second half of his career during Datsyuk's peak, yet nearly scored as much from the blueline, and played 27 minutes a game. Franzen produced far more goal scoring.

It's just wild to me people critique Hossa's playoff performance in 2009 but I feel like we got basically the same output from him that we did many Datsyuk years.

And keep in mind all of this is within context of me believing Lidstrom and Zetterberg are two of the most dominant playoff performers ever. This isn't a rip on Datsyuk. But the dude wasn't the MVP or even co-MVP of the best teams he played on. That's just how it is. The point of this exercise is to show you can take a great player like Datsyuk and demonstrate how others around him were the real driving force.

If you can do it for Datsyuk, an all-time great, it's a pretty cheap trick. That's all.

I must have been imagining all those times over a 10-12 year span where Datsyuk was clearly the best player on the ice.

 

[SirloinUB]

It's August and draft still isn't for months. And we have no idea if the NHL can pull off a full season this year.

Distractions are all we have, brother.

As to your point about Carey Price not winning anything, see the huge list of elite top line players that haven't won squat. Thornton, Sedins, Weber, Stamkos, Karlsson, Tavarves, and on and on. For all their greatness team success has eluded them. I'm getting pretty good at having this list memorized by this point, too. I guess what I'm saying is lack of team success doesn't really sway me too much when he's in such elite company.

Indeed, October 9th is a long way off

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I must have been imagining all those times over a 10-12 year span where Datsyuk was clearly the best player on the ice.

There were a few to be sure, there weren't many in April, May and June though, especially compared to some of the regular season games...

He is not the playoff performer Zetterberg was, there is a ton of statistical evidence and memory to go on there.

Him and Franzen are the close comparison there when we look at that era. Lidstrom and Zetterberg were a tier above him in post-season play in my opinion. He had his moments for sure, because he was an amazing player but honestly he probably has many of those kind of playoff games as Franzen did...

Hey the clear cut fourth best guy on one of those teams just went into the HHOF on a first ballot.

We got to watch some great hockey... Remember that with what is happening now.

 

[Frk It]

There were a few to be sure, there weren't many in April, May and June though, especially compared to some of the regular season games...

He is not the playoff performer Zetterberg was, their is a ton of statistical evidence and memory to go on there.

Him and Franzen are the close comparison there when we look at that era. Lidstrom and Zetterberg were a tier above him in post-season play in my opinion. He had his moments for sure, because he was an amazing players, but honestly he probably has many of those games as Franzen did...

Career Reg season - 63.6 CF% (better than pretty much anyone ever)

Career playoffs - 63.6 CF% (better than pretty much anyone ever)

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Career Reg season - 63.6 CF% (better than pretty much anyone ever)

Career playoffs - 63.6 CF% (better than pretty much anyone ever)

Interesting they are the same number, you have to wonder why his scoring rate drops so much in the playoffs. Arguably he was getting his weakest matchups, with us caring much more to match Zetterberg as the dominate defensive center in the post-season.

Of course they were best deployed together...

More to it than one advanced stat... He kills in WAR is usually the one I like trotting out for Datsyuk. I think both Z and D have a top 5 all-time season in the stat in 07-08.

But I don't know how you could argue he was more impactful than Zetterberg in the playoffs, I can only think of a couple years and those were short runs.

 

[Frk It]

Interesting they are the same number, you have to wonder why his scoring rate drops so much in the playoffs.

Don’t know, not sure the best place to find career CF% honestly, I just used hockeyreference.com.

The guy massively tilted the ice in our favor every time he touched the ice, regardless if points followed or not.

Z was a better player from May 2008 to June 2008, but pretty much the rest of the time I never really had to think about who was better.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Don’t know, not sure the best place to find career CF% honestly, I just used hockeyreference.com.

The guy massively tilted the ice in our favor every time he touched the ice, regardless if points followed or not.

Z was a better player from May 2008 to June 2008, but pretty much the rest of the time I never really had to think about who was better.

Yeah I certainly don't think that logic stands up for me. I don't think it was that brief at all. I always thought Z was the better of the two in the post-season outside of a few series.