Who would Detroit take at 4?

[Bench]

I must have been imagining all those times over a 10-12 year span where Datsyuk was clearly the best player on the ice.

Yeah for sure, but I still think he was the 3rd most important player during the glory years.

But mainly I was trying to show how you can minimize even great efforts within a roster. If you can show how Datsyuk wasn't the key driver to a Cup win, well it should be pretty easy to do that about MAF on a team with Crosby and Malkin. And subsequently, OK, hey maybe he wasn't the main reason... but like... an important reason. Being a starting goalie and all for so many damn years.

Also I just got way off track because honestly I'm a little tired of already going in circles about the same 3 prospects and it's more fun for me to fulfill my blood oath to defend goalies. The draft should be long over by now. We're in like the 10th OT period at this point with draft discussion and I'm feelin' it to my bones.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If Raymond is dropping we should trade with the Devils and draft Raymond and Holtz...

 

[Bench]

Yeah I certainly don't think that logic stands up for me. I don't think it was that brief at all. I always thought Z was the better of the two in the post-season outside of a few series.

I swear I don't come into these threads trying to agree with TZE, but yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that Zetterberg was our playoff hero and Datsyuk was the sidekick. And even if you want to pick Datsyuk as the better player there, I'm absolutely floored we're ignoring Lidstrom as the best player on playoff ice, even during his mid to late 30s.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah I certainly don't think that logic stands up for me. I don't think it was that brief at all. I always thought Z was the better of the two in the post-season outside of a few series.

We probably appreciate different things in a player and that’s fine. I didn’t like the suggestion Datsyuk was a total failure in the playoffs. If you remember he had a few unproductive post seasons early, but as he got older his play became a lot more consistent to what he was doing in the regular season.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I swear I don't come into these threads trying to agree with TZE, but yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that Zetterberg was our playoff hero and Datsyuk was the sidekick. And even if you want to pick Datsyuk as the better player there, I'm absolutely floored we're ignoring Lidstrom as the best player on playoff ice, even during his mid to late 30s.

Lidstrom was the best player on the ice in over 1,000 of his games at least... #2 D-man with a bullet.

 

[Frk It]

If Raymond is dropping we should trade with the Devils and draft Raymond and Holtz...

Oh man, could you imagine?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

We probably appreciate different things in a player and that’s fine. I didn’t like the suggestion Datsyuk was a total failure in the playoffs. If you remember he had a few unproductive post seasons early, but as he got older his play became a lot more consistent to what he was doing in the regular season.

I don't think Datsyuk was bad at all, I just think he was our third best player most post-seasons you can even argue on our 08 cup run that Franzen beat him that year. Datsyuk is a fabulous player, but I don't really agree with some of his status with Detroit fans. I don't think he was better than Fedorov or some of the other things I read. I think he was absolutely peers with Zetterberg, so that is where some of it comes from. That he did drop off in the post-season is a part of that. It wasn't into being a poor playoff performer. Heck maybe the point is that Zetterberg elevated, Briere did that and was lauded. Some guys just hit another level Couture is currently one of those guys. But I think Zetterberg played all-star team caliber hockey all the time and was even better with bigger stakes. I just think Datsyuk played it better in the regular season, though he certainly had dominate moments. Of course he did, he is a HHOF, no shame in having another couple on his team that were better in the post-season.

 

[Frk It]

I swear I don't come into these threads trying to agree with TZE

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Oh man, could you imagine?

Those guys would bounce pucks of Rasmussen for a decade. They are so incredible together. Like is there any doubt in your mind they are a line in the World Championships, Cups and Olympics in the future if they both hit into what they are supposed to be? Their chemistry in insane. I kind of do hope they end up together with Ottawa or New Jersey for that reason.

 

[Frk It]

Lidstrom was the best player on the ice in over 1,000 of his games at least... #2 D-man with a bullet.

Touché

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You clearly need to recruit @Winger98 on your side... What can I say.

Step Brothers Scouting has an agenda and we defend it.

 

[Bench]

Those guys would bounce pucks of Rasmussen for a decade. They are so incredible together. Like is there any doubt in your mind they are a line in the World Championships, Cups and Olympics in the future if they both hit into what they are supposed to be. Their chemistry in insane. I kind of do hope they end up together with Ottawa or New Jersey for that reason.

Ottawa and NJ having multiple top 10 picks in this draft really is the ultimate wildcard.

Well, you know, aside from us not having any clue who is drafting #1. That's a little wild, too, I suppose.

 

[Frk It]

You clearly need to recruit @Winger98 on your side... What can I say.

Step Brothers Scouting has an agenda and we defend it.

I know where @Winger98 stands, so I’ll have to recruit some other cronies.

How lucky are we to have some of these arguments about who was best on those teams over a period of so much success?

I miss watching those guys so much.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know where @Winger98 stands, so I’ll have to recruit some other cronies.

How lucky are we to have some of these arguments about who was best on those teams over a period of so much success?

The pro-Rossi crowd should be fertile recruiting ground for the next few months.

 

[Frk It]

The pro-Rossi crowd should be fertile recruiting ground for the next few months.

Lol, we can get back on topic and discuss this.

So I do have some of the skepticism you and @Bench have here, which is why I don't have Rossi in my top 5, and would not really consider him at 4. I do think he has some bust potential.

But I guess one thing I would maybe encourage you and your cohort to ask each other is, what if everything goes right? Because you know one thing I don't like doing with these prospects? Is assuming the guy who has always been super productive can't find a way keep being super productive. Now there are certainly some cases where that has burned me, but generally I would rather bet on the guy who has always been productive to keep being productive vs hoping the guy with great tools can find a way to become productive eventually. So when you guys say his ceiling is Hudler... why? What if Rossi does gain a step in his skating? What if he keeps improving his shot? What if he continues to build on his strong 2 way game and competitiveness?

Are we not looking at maybe something different at that point?

 

[MBH]

Pavel Datsyuk is in contention for the best player I've ever watched.
Can't say that about Lidstrom or Zetterberg.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Lol, we can get back on topic and discuss this.

So I do have some of the skepticism you and @Bench have here, which is why I don't have Rossi in my top 5, and would not really consider him at 4. I do think he has some bust potential.

But I guess one thing I would maybe encourage you and your cohort to ask each other is, what if everything goes right? Because you know one thing I don't like doing with these prospects? Is assuming the guy who has always been super productive can't find a way keep being super productive. Now there are certainly some cases where that has burned me, but generally I would rather bet on the guy who has always been productive to keep being productive vs hoping the guy with great tools can find a way to become productive eventually. So when you guys say his ceiling is Hudler... why? What if Rossi does gain a step in his skating? What if he keeps improving his shot? What if he continues to build on his strong 2 way game and competitiveness?

Are we not looking at maybe something different at that point?

What if he becomes Brayden Point or are we more thinking a Larkin type?

I would be surprised for sure, but that is a great player to have on a dominant team. Hopefully we put guys around him to make that kind of driving style work. I think we do have some of those monsters in our system in terms of a Mantha and Rasmussen that can take away things with their length though Ras is still projected in the middle. In terms of ultimate ceiling a 15-25 center. He would be a valuable piece.

But then I ask you this if I have to ultimately consider that ceiling you hate so much as well. Askarov is in my opinion the best goaltending prospect I have seen. Yes I am throwing him over Luongo, Price, Knight, Vasy and company. I was too young and not nearly as into prospects to really remember Brodeur the prospect. I only knew Wings guys in terms of prospects when I was younger, they also weren't nearly as easy to follow.

So what if Askarov is the generational goaltender. That yes we have changed how often they start. But this kid has more in common with the true mega-stars of the game that he is in the Hasek, Brodeur, Roy tier. A goalie that makes a ridiculous impact and drags teams places often winning massively along the way. Because that is his potential and I am told I should shove that for the unicorn hope that the first 5'8" center of significance since Marcel Dionne is coming... We will see. But what is the true top potential and value and where should you pick it.

At this point in the rebuild with the setback that was the draft lottery and our overall trajectory. I want to draft the truly elite offensive weapon. This team is so lacking in skill, we just sat through the worst season in three decades people. I have to go with Perfetti or Raymond the more I think on it. I think we need that guy massively. A guy that unlocks defenses, that plays through tiers and layers of the offensive zone. That threatens the shot and is a true shot and passing threat. I think we need someone dynamic. I am worried about messing this pick up. If Stutzle or Byfield fall of course I would be excited, but if not I want one of the two exceptional hockey IQ offensive guys. I have evolved there when I look at the organization and feel really strongly about it. Sorry for those that find my thinking heavy handed, maybe the long layoff is making it worse. But I really do think that has to be Yzerman's goal, we need a game breaker. I am willing to hone in on that over what I view as a game-breaking goalie as well.

 

[MBH]

I don't pretend to know if Askarov is better than Luongo or Knight - especially when I don't know how good Knight really is.
But if he has a career in that Luongo or even Fleury level - can you really hate the pick?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Pavel Datsyuk is in contention for the best player I've ever watched.
Can't say that about Lidstrom or Zetterberg.

Lidstrom is easily the best Wings player I have ever seen and that includes the Stevie wonder years. Lidstrom controlled the entire game for half of it during his prime. He was completely dominate, it was understated but it was there. He played winning hockey from his third year on, he was relentlessly consistent and dominate.

There is a reason he goes first when you ask anybody from that era. The entire organization and players all understand it is Lidstrom and that speaks volumes itself.

 

[Winger98]

Lol, we can get back on topic and discuss this.

So I do have some of the skepticism you and @Bench have here, which is why I don't have Rossi in my top 5, and would not really consider him at 4. I do think he has some bust potential.

But I guess one thing I would maybe encourage you and your cohort to ask each other is, what if everything goes right? Because you know one thing I don't like doing with these prospects? Is assuming the guy who has always been super productive can't find a way keep being super productive. Now there are certainly some cases where that has burned me, but generally I would rather bet on the guy who has always been productive to keep being productive vs hoping the guy with great tools can find a way to become productive eventually. So when you guys say his ceiling is Hudler... why? What if Rossi does gain a step in his skating? What if he keeps improving his shot? What if he continues to build on his strong 2 way game and competitiveness?

Are we not looking at maybe something different at that point?

Find a guy in the NHL with Rossi's size and skating and see how successful they have been. If you can qualify for one of those blue and white parking placards because you can't see over the steering wheel without a couple of phone books, you better be able to fly out there and Rossi just can't. You know I have issues with Sanderson, too, but I'd take Sanderson over Rossi and I'd take neither in the top 5 (8?).

As for Datsyuk, I'd have flipped him for Bergeron. The Wings have a 2C who stays healthy and productive and another Cup or two are lifted.

 

[Frk It]

But then I ask you this if I have to ultimately consider that ceiling you hate so much as well. Askarov is in my opinion the best goaltending prospect I have seen. Yes I am throwing him over Luongo, Price, Knight, Vasy and company. I was too young and not nearly as into prospects to really remember Brodeur the prospect. I only knew Wings guys in terms of prospects when I was younger, they also weren't nearly as easy to follow.

So what if Askarov is the generational goaltender. That yes we have changed how often they start. But this kid has more in common with the true mega-stars of the game that he is in the Hasek, Brodeur, Roy tier. A goalie that makes a ridiculous impact and drags teams places often winning massively along the way. Because that is his potential and we I am told I should shove that for the unicorn hope that the first 5'8" center of significance since Marcel Dionne is coming... We will see. But what is the true top potential and value and where should you pick it..

I mean, I have Askarov ranked ahead of Rossi. So I don't necessarily disagree. I think he is probably on par with Price, probably the best goalie that has come along since him. I probably don't value strength at that position as much as you and Bench do, but I can see your general premise there. I just probably won't be as up in arms if the Wings were to take Rossi as you guys. I am kind of hoping Ottawa takes the local (market) kid at 3, but that is definitely a longshot.

I guess the thing that has changed most for me, is I have continued to become more and more sold on Perfetti. I mean you listen to guys like Button say he has no doubt he will be an elite offensive player in the NHL, and it is pretty convincing. Given our relationship with Saginaw, I am hoping our inside knowledge only makes him more appealing and we know some good stuff on him that no one else does.

 

[Frk It]

Find a guy in the NHL with Rossi's size and skating and see how successful they have been. If you can qualify for one of those blue and white parking placards because you can't see over the steering wheel without a couple of phone books, you better be able to fly out there and Rossi just can't. You know I have issues with Sanderson, too, but I'd take Sanderson over Rossi and I'd take neither in the top 5 (8?).

As for Datsyuk, I'd have flipped him for Bergeron. The Wings have a 2C who stays healthy and productive and another Cup or two are lifted.

I love Bergy, but c'monnnnnnnnnnnnn

On Rossi, fair.

But who was the defenseman that was Quinn Hughes size that was playing big minutes and all situations in the NHL?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I mean, I have Askarov ranked ahead of Rossi. So I don't necessarily disagree. I think he is probably on par with Price, probably the best goalie that has come along since him. I probably don't value strength at that position as much as you and Bench do, but I can see your general premise there. I just probably won't be as up in arms if the Wings were to take Rossi as you guys. I am kind of hoping Ottawa takes the local kid at 3, but that is definitely a longshot.

I guess the thing that has changed most for me, is I have continued to become more and more sold on Perfetti. I mean you listen to guys like Button say he has no doubt he will be an elite offensive player in the NHL, and it is pretty convincing. Given our relationship with Saginaw, I am hoping our inside knowledge only makes him more appealing and we know some good stuff on him that no one else does.

I like Perfetti going into the year, I got down on him for a bit, but he worked his way back up my board. He is a dynamic talent in my opinion. He does a lot of things where you just kind of like man he really sees the ice and senses the situation. Ceiling player for him is a Kucherov type, he picks teams apart and plays the game at whatever pace he wants to at times. It is kind of mesmerizing the more you watch it. Just makes me feel confident it is coming up. God you hope he isn't Middelstadt...

 

[Frk It]

I like Perfetti going into the year, I got down on him for a bit, but he worked his way back up my board. He is a dynamic talent in my opinion. He does a lot of things where you just kind of like man he really sees the ice and senses the situation. Ceiling player for him is a Kucherov type, he picks teams apart and plays the game at whatever pace he wants to at times. It is kind of mesmerizing the more you watch it. Just makes me feel confident it is coming up. God you hope he isn't Middelstadt...

Good point, I was super high on Casey. That would be the flip side I guess. He may be our best bet at getting a PPG forward though, IMO.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I love Bergy, but c'monnnnnnnnnnnnn

On Rossi, fair.

But who was the defenseman that was Quinn Hughes size that was playing big minutes and all situations in the NHL?

ME the entire draft year

"What makes Quinn Hughes the outlier that will buck this trend is his skating and passing. He is the best at that of any young USA D-man I have seen. He processes the game so fast and he constantly maintains gaps and wins battles with his skating and stick. Elite in all three zones despite his size. That is why I have him at #3 on my board." I mean maybe not exactly but I would have said something similar...

Was actually most worried about Hughes' shot.