Who will leave the bigger legacy: Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin?

[tacogeoff]

Who has the better legacy Steve Yzerman or any of his contemporaries that aren’t named Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky?

When people look back in history they look at championships. It’s why Sid will have the legacy and why Ovechkin unless he breaks the goal record will have the more “what if’s”.

Ovie if he finishes 2nd or 3rd in goalscoring will probably have the legacy of a Phil Esposito.

Sid will be viewed as the player that won everything. Literally everything he could. He just wins.

your comparing Sid to Yzerman as they both have won 3 cups?

So people look more at team awards over the combination of team/individual accomplishments? that is news to me. Ovi has accomplished all the NHL team awards as well so that is kind of a stalemate.

I am not sure what kind of "what if's" you are talking about? He has won a Stanley cup, president's trophy x3, Calder, Art Ross, The Richard x8, Hart x3, Lindsay x3 and Smythe. …… please tell me about these Ovi "what ifs"

and honestly. no one cares about PPG. there is no award or prestige title given for players that have a high ppg. its a nice stat obviously but it is a huge crutch Crosby fans hold on to due to his lack of durability and inability to play full seasons.

 

[SouthGeorge]

No it doesn’t.

Yes, it does. Ovi would give up his Cup for a Golden goal.

 

[Gurglesons]

So has Jonathan Toews.

Ovechkin having the bigger legacy in many ways does depend on breaking Gretzky’s record. BUT, I would say his legacy at this moment is already up there. Maybe not bigger, but 700 goals is a big achievement, and it will only get bigger. Again, better player doesn’t have equate to bigger legacy.

To my knowledge Toews has not won the Pearson, Art Ross, Hart, etc.

 

[Gurglesons]

I love these stats. Sidney Crosby has the 5th best PPG in NHL history as a forward, with the last name starting with C on the third Tuesday of the month. Any more?

Well, if you remove other positions. Sid has the 6th best PPG.

 

[Gurglesons]

You really think his current ppg is relevant when comparing him to players that have retired?

Keep smoking what you're smoking...

He’s been above a PPG every year in his career. He’s been the model of consistency in the modern era and the league is only becoming more offensively oriented.

Then he doesn’t break it....your comparison doesn’t correlate. Crosby’s peak was almost non existent yet many still use it to his advantage. Something as very objective as number of goals doesn’t have that stigma attached to it like Crosby’s peak. It’s always what he would have done or could have done.

It really isn’t. Crosby has been the best player of his generation, led his team to four Stanley Cup Finals in a ten year stretch, and won everything imaginable except a Calder and a Selke.

If Ovechkin is hypothetically the greatest goalscorer of all time. Doesn’t Sid being one of only two players to our produce him in goals multiple times in Ovechkin’s prime mean something?

 

[Gurglesons]

your comparing Sid to Yzerman as they both have won 3 cups?

So people look more at team awards over the combination of team/individual accomplishments? that is news to me. Ovi has accomplished all the NHL team awards as well so that is kind of a stalemate.

I am not sure what kind of "what if's" you are talking about? He has won a Stanley cup, president's trophy x3, Calder, Art Ross, The Richard x8, Hart x3, Lindsay x3 and Smythe. …… please tell me about these Ovi "what ifs"

and honestly. no one cares about PPG. there is no award or prestige title given for players that have a high ppg. its a nice stat obviously but it is a huge crutch Crosby fans hold on to due to his lack of durability and inability to play full seasons.

If he doesn’t break the goal barrier people will use the same exact arguments they use for Sid to prove he was the best goal scorer of all time.

Does Brett Hull have a better legacy than Yzerman or Sakic?

 

[Fixxer]

It's crazy how the situation changed. 3 cups, a Conn Smythe and and the winning goal at the 2010 Olympics, Crosby was far ahead. -- Now, Ovechkin has a cup and since talks of reaching Gretzky's goal scoring milestone, it seems like he's the front runner these days.

 

[wetcoast]

You must be learning from Great Gonzo the art of the Strawman.

OV was #22 in the last HOH project last April, Crosby was #12. There is a marginal, yet clear, difference between the two.

After another Rocket for OV last year and so far this year and Crosby's Hart nominated season last year, I would put OV right there with Jagr in the #15ish area and Crosby next to Richard in #8/9 area.

Crosby's accomplishments match up well with Beliveau and Hull save for longevity and is ahead of them at age 32/thru first 15 seasons.

Crosby's ceiling is the consensus #5, OV's ceiling is consensus Top 10 (just behind Richard whose playoff resume is just too much to overcome).

I disagree Ovechkin can clearly pass Richard and probably already has done so.

Sure he will never catch up to Richard in the playoffs but he already clearly ahead of him in the regular season.

They both have 13 seasons each in the top 10 of goal scoring (what both of them are primarily known for) but the difference is that Ovechkin has 9 times led the NHL in goal scoring and Richard 5 times.

That difference in regular season finishes is greater than the differences in their playoff resumes IMO.

 

[wetcoast]

You must be learning from Great Gonzo the art of the Strawman.

OV was #22 in the last HOH project last April, Crosby was #12. There is a marginal, yet clear, difference between the two.

After another Rocket for OV last year and so far this year and Crosby's Hart nominated season last year, I would put OV right there with Jagr in the #15ish area and Crosby next to Richard in #8/9 area.

Crosby's accomplishments match up well with Beliveau and Hull save for longevity and is ahead of them at age 32/thru first 15 seasons.

Crosby's ceiling is the consensus #5, OV's ceiling is consensus Top 10 (just behind Richard whose playoff resume is just too much to overcome).

I disagree Ovechkin can clearly pass Richard and probably already has done so.

Sure he will never catch up to Richard in the playoffs but he already clearly ahead of him in the regular season.

They both have 13 seasons each in the top 10 of goal scoring (what both of them are primarily known for) but the difference is that Ovechkin has 9 times led the NHL in goal scoring and Richard 5 times.

That difference in regular season finishes is greater than the differences in their playoff resumes IMO.

 

[Varan]

You must be learning from Great Gonzo the art of the Strawman.

OV was #22 in the last HOH project last April, Crosby was #12. There is a marginal, yet clear, difference between the two.

After another Rocket for OV last year and so far this year and Crosby's Hart nominated season last year, I would put OV right there with Jagr in the #15ish area and Crosby next to Richard in #8/9 area.

Crosby's accomplishments match up well with Beliveau and Hull save for longevity and is ahead of them at age 32/thru first 15 seasons.

Crosby's ceiling is the consensus #5, OV's ceiling is consensus Top 10 (just behind Richard whose playoff resume is just too much to overcome).

Why are you putting so much stock into the HOH? What is so special about that? Because they did a project?

I'm not arguing in terms of play because I concede that Crosby is a better overall player and has been for the majority of their careers, however, strictly speaking accomplishments, the difference is minute. I know trophy counting isn't everything, but how are you going to discredit 17 trophies? This is RIGHT NOW, not in the future.

In my eyes, OV getting another cup + CS and breaking the goal record, with (I'd say), 10 Richards, makes him top 5 for me. That is TOO MUCH to ignore. Because he'll likely be top 10 in playoff goals and GPG, #1 in goals all-time, top-5 GPG all time, a respectable PPG of 1.1.

Difficult task, but his ceiling is not just top-10. Maybe to you, but that stems from years of bias

 

[cowboy82nd]

Yes, it does. Ovi would give up his Cup for a Golden goal.

I don’t think so.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why are you putting so much stock into the HOH? What is so special about that? Because they did a project?

I'm not arguing in terms of play because I concede that Crosby is a better overall player and has been for the majority of their careers, however, strictly speaking accomplishments, the difference is minute. I know trophy counting isn't everything, but how are you going to discredit 17 trophies? This is RIGHT NOW, not in the future.

In my eyes, OV getting another cup + CS and breaking the goal record, with (I'd say), 10 Richards, makes him top 5 for me. That is TOO MUCH to ignore. Because he'll likely be top 10 in playoff goals and GPG, #1 in goals all-time, top-5 GPG all time, a respectable PPG of 1.1.

Difficult task, but his ceiling is not just top-10. Maybe to you, but that stems from years of bias

I’d agree if that happens. Really doubt it does as that Capitals team is not set up for long term success with the contracts they have moving forward.

 

[Fear the Wushu]

Let me see how their careers end.

But Crosby just due to Canadian bias and worthless exhibition tournaments like the Olympics

By your statement the World Cup is a pointless exhibition tournament lol

 

[daver]

delete

 

[daver]

I disagree Ovechkin can clearly pass Richard and probably already has done so.

Sure he will never catch up to Richard in the playoffs but he already clearly ahead of him in the regular season.

They both have 13 seasons each in the top 10 of goal scoring (what both of them are primarily known for) but the difference is that Ovechkin has 9 times led the NHL in goal scoring and Richard 5 times.

That difference in regular season finishes is greater than the differences in their playoff resumes IMO.

You aren't usually one to throw out raw numbers/trophies with no context. Richard lost two titles to a peak Howe as would OV.

So seven titles to nine, a higher peak season (s), a mammoth lead in goals for his era (same as OV), the highest point total of his era (same as OV), and the 2nd highest PPG of his era (superior to OV), make their regular seasons resumes very close.

What isn't close is the difference in their playoff PPGs and legacy. Richard is the runaway leader in goals and points, with an even higher GPG in the playoffs. OV's playoff resume is OK relative to his regular season one, Richard is defined by his.

OV's lack of longevity as an offensive force ultimately keeps him out of the Top Ten.

 

[daver]

Why are you putting so much stock into the HOH? What is so special about that? Because they did a project?

I'm not arguing in terms of play because I concede that Crosby is a better overall player and has been for the majority of their careers, however, strictly speaking accomplishments, the difference is minute. I know trophy counting isn't everything, but how are you going to discredit 17 trophies? This is RIGHT NOW, not in the future

Giving appropriate value to trophies isn't discrediting them.

Some of his Richard trophies didn't mean he was better than Crosby in the season he won them.

2013
2013/14
2015/16
2018/19

 

[wetcoast]

You aren't usually one to throw out raw numbers/trophies with no context. Richard lost two titles to a peak Howe as would OV.

So seven titles to nine, a higher peak season (s), a mammoth lead in goals for his era (same as OV), the highest point total of his era (same as OV), and the 2nd highest PPG of his era (superior to OV), make their regular seasons resumes very close.

What isn't close is the difference in their playoff PPGs and legacy. Richard is the runaway leader in goals and points, with an even higher GPG in the playoffs. OV's playoff resume is OK relative to his regular season one, Richard is defined by his.

OV's lack of longevity as an offensive force ultimately keeps him out of the Top Ten.

Maurice Richard's great season, the 50 in 50 was also in a depleted NHL and the 40's were no star studded era to be frank.

When one applies context, ie compares the different eras between the 2 guys it probably makes Ovechkin's dominance even greater.

But just on the raw numbers with zero context here is how they stack up with their 13 top 10 finishes when you take out over lapping finishes.

Ovechkin 1,1,1,1,3
Richard 2,2,2,4,6

So unless you truly believe (and that would need to be a belief as it's hard to justify concretely) that Richard had the harder pather or era to play in then Ovechkin's raw regular season finishes are simply much better than Richard when we are talking elite level or greatest goal scorer of all time.

 

[daver]

Why are you putting so much stock into the HOH? What is so special about that? Because they did a project?

I'm not arguing in terms of play because I concede that Crosby is a better overall player and has been for the majority of their careers, however, strictly speaking accomplishments, the difference is minute. I know trophy counting isn't everything, but how are you going to discredit 17 trophies? This is RIGHT NOW, not in the future

Giving appropriate value to trophies isn't discrediting them.

Some of his Richard trophies didn't mean he was better than Crosby in the season he won them.

2013
2013/14
2015/16
2018/19

 

[daver]

Maurice Richard's great season, the 50 in 50 was also in a depleted NHL and the 40's were no star studded era to be frank.

He had two other seasons that were arguably superior to OV's best.

 

[daver]

When one applies context, ie compares the different eras between the 2 guys it probably makes Ovechkin's dominance even greater.

What a boring default position to take, to be frank. This isn't applying context to their numbers, it is a completely subjective opinion.

 

[daver]

Why are you putting so much stock into the HOH? What is so special about that? Because they did a project?

I'm not arguing in terms of play because I concede that Crosby is a better overall player and has been for the majority of their careers, however, strictly speaking accomplishments, the difference is minute. I know trophy counting isn't everything, but how are you going to discredit 17 trophies? This is RIGHT NOW, not in the future.

In my eyes, OV getting another cup + CS and breaking the goal record, with (I'd say), 10 Richards, makes him top 5 for me. That is TOO MUCH to ignore. Because he'll likely be top 10 in playoff goals and GPG, #1 in goals all-time, top-5 GPG all time, a respectable PPG of 1.1.

Difficult task, but his ceiling is not just top-10. Maybe to you, but that stems from years of bias

If you appreciate objective analysis and assessment, i.e. free of the bias you accuse me of having (how original by the way, "I AM RIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE BIASED!"), then you would appreciate the time and effort that went into that project.

 

[wetcoast]

What a boring default position to take, to be frank. This isn't applying context to their numbers, it is a completely subjective opinion.

You are right equating the WWII years when a significant amount of NHL stars were outside of the NHL to post lockout NHL is subjective but it has a strong foundation of credibility to build upon the difference of the 2 eras.

There is a reason that Richard scored 50 in 50 in 44-45 and then never scored higher than 45 goals against despite an increase in the number of games in the schedule.

 

[TheMule93]

If Ovi passes Gretzky's goal scoring totals i think he'll have the bigger legacy despite being the inferior player

 

[GreatGonzo]

To my knowledge Toews has not won the Pearson, Art Ross, Hart, etc.

I was making fun of the whole “he just wins!” Crown. It’s the same logic people used to make Toews the best player in the league. Crosby wins a lot because of his talent among other fortunate situations, so has Ovechkin.

Giving appropriate value to trophies isn't discrediting them.

Some of his Richard trophies didn't mean he was better than Crosby in the season he won them.

2013
2013/14
2015/16
2018/19

Appropriate value? In other words you get to decide which trophies are and are not valuable enough for your liking?

this is Davers world, we are all just living in it.

He’s been above a PPG every year in his career. He’s been the model of consistency in the modern era and the league is only becoming more offensively oriented.



It really isn’t. Crosby has been the best player of his generation, led his team to four Stanley Cup Finals in a ten year stretch, and won everything imaginable except a Calder and a Selke.

If Ovechkin is hypothetically the greatest goalscorer of all time. Doesn’t Sid being one of only two players to our produce him in goals multiple times in Ovechkin’s prime mean something?

How does that mean anything? Does it mean something that MSL has the same amount of Scoring titles as Crosby? Does it mean anything that Jamie Ben won a scoring title over Crosby? No....none of that takes away what Crosby accomplished.

I understand where you are coming from, but you still aren’t understanding the difference between the better player and the one with the bigger legacy. Crosby and Ovechkin will always be joined at the hip in terms of their impact on the league. Crosby already has an all time legacy. Ovechkin breaking the all time goal record would put his name in a whole other legacy in itself. His name will always be there, at the top of a very prestigious stat.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If you appreciate objective analysis and assessment, i.e. free of the bias you accuse me of having (how original by the way, "I AM RIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE BIASED!"), then you would appreciate the time and effort that went into that project.

That same project rejects your idea that Crosby has an argument for #5 though, he isn’t even in their top 10.