Who was the better player: Daniel Alfredsson or Mats Sundin?

[trentmccleary]

Those stats don’t point to him being “significantly better” whatsoever. It’s a small advantage at ES before even factoring in team goals against. You’re the one who is ignoring the GA stats in favour of claims of better goaltending and payroll. And I never said anything about liking Sundin more. I think they’re similar level players. Your GA argument just stinks.

It's a clear advantage. If there's a .07 gap in PPG, people aren't saying that the players were the same.
The GA stats involve 2/3's of the game when these players weren't on the ice. Also, these players are being compared based on their on-ice impact. That's a 1,000 game sample while they were in the league at the same time at the same ages. They produced the same PPG, but one player was on the ice for 10% more goals against.

Kovalchuk played 600 games in Atlanta, sure he scored at a PPG (1.04) but he was also on the ice for a goal per game (0.93). Should that be ignored? What about all of the Lightning scorers who shirked their defensive responsibilities to pad their stats from 07-14?

I didn't mean that you liked Sundin more or that was your argument. That was basically the original argument I responded to though.

 

[Divine]

Wrong again on your stats , Heatleys production went down , that’s why he was traded, he was a one trick pony, lazy , and slow, with a great shot.
His fourth year he was on and off the line.

Let's see:

Heatley's last year in Ottawa:
08-09: 82GP 39G 33A 72P

09-10 (with SJ): 82GP 39G 43A 82P

Math isn't your strong suit I'm guessing?

But you make a good point, you're discrediting the other Sens fans argument here. Heatley was declining before he left Ottawa. The other poster thinks Heatley's decline only happened after leaving Ottawa due to not playing with Alfredsson.

 

[NyQuil]

Let's see:

Heatley's last year in Ottawa:
08-09: 82GP 39G 33A 72P

09-10 (with SJ): 82GP 39G 43A 82P

Math isn't your strong suit I'm guessing?

But you make a good point, you're discrediting the other Sens fans argument here. Heatley was declining before he left Ottawa. The other poster thinks Heatley's decline only happened after leaving Ottawa due to not playing with Alfredsson.

And Sundin's statistics went down after going to Vancouver.

Using your logic, Toronto wasn't as bad a team supporting him as you were portraying, and the "succeeding despite terrible linemates" argument holds no water.

 

[Divine]

And Sundin's statistics went down after going to Vancouver.

Using your logic, Toronto wasn't as bad a team supporting him as you were portraying, and the "succeeding despite terrible linemates" argument holds no water.

Oh wow, almost like he joined the team mid-season with no offseason training or training camp because he was considering retiring eh?

His stats went down?

 

[bert]

Sundin.

Would I want either to lead my team in a PO run? No.

What a shitty post. Leading the playoffs in scoring 51 goals in 120 playoff games. Would hate to have that guy on my team come playoffs!

 

[Hockeyholic]

What a shitty post. Leading the playoffs in scoring 51 goals in 120 playoff games. Would hate to have that guy on my team come playoffs!

Yeah outside of 07, I can't remember a truly great PO run by Alfie.

 

[NyQuil]

Oh wow, almost like he joined the team mid-season with no offseason training or training camp because he was considering retiring eh?

His stats went down?

Alfredsson was leading the Red Wings in scoring when he was three years older.

Just no staying power I guess.

 

[bert]

Yeah outside of 07, I can't remember a truly great PO run by Alfie.

You didn't watch then. He had a hat trick in the organizations first ever playoff series win.

 

[Holymakinaw]

You didn't watch then. He had a hat trick in the organizations first ever playoff series win.

Did he? Hmm, I don't remember. I DO remember him losing to Sundin in the playoffs the 4 times they met, tho.

 

[NyQuil]

Did he? Hmm, I don't remember. I DO remember him losing to Sundin in the playoffs the 4 times they met, tho.

Sundin didn't play against Ottawa in 2001-2002.

Your memory is understandably fuzzy because it was back from the time when Toronto could win a playoff series.

 

[bert]

Did he? Hmm, I don't remember. I DO remember him losing to Sundin in the playoffs the 4 times they met, tho.

How could you? You turn off the T.V the moment the leafs aren't playing.

 

[ACC1224]

Surprised(not really) that this isn’t a shutout. Sundin by a mile.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Surprised(not really) that this isn’t a shutout. Sundin by a mile.

Yes well, it's all been very amusing. Everyone knows Sundin takes this one in a landslide, but it's fun to watch the gymnastics on display.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Let's see:

Heatley's last year in Ottawa:
08-09: 82GP 39G 33A 72P

09-10 (with SJ): 82GP 39G 43A 82P

Math isn't your strong suit I'm guessing?

But you make a good point, you're discrediting the other Sens fans argument here. Heatley was declining before he left Ottawa. The other poster thinks Heatley's decline only happened after leaving Ottawa due to not playing with Alfredsson.

Lol, he had 1 year improvement, after whining in his 4th year, that he was being bumped to second line and second PP, parts of the year.

Ottawa : 105,103,82,72
Post Ottawa: 82,64,53,21,28,0 and AHL

 

[Foppberg]

Alfie.

 

[ER89]

*debatable.

I already explained this to you, Alfredsson would miss around 10 games every season, which would cause him to lose out by a few points. For example, all the times he finished 2nd in points on his team:

1996-97: 4 less points than Yashin, played 6 less games. Higher p/gp

1999-00: 1 less point than Bonk. Played 23 less games. Higher p/gp

2002-03: 2 less points than Hossa. Played 2 less games. Same p/gp

2003-04: 2 less points than Hossa. Played 4 less games. Higher p/gp

2007-08: 3 less points than Spezza. Played 6 less games. Higher p/gp

This whole narrative you're trying to paint that Alfredsson was never the best player on his team, or more often than not wasn't the best player on the team, is bizarre. He led his team in p/gp only 2 less seasons than Sundin (and as you admitted yourself, had more competition in that regard), and as you can see, this wasn't the case of him only playing half the season and scoring 20 less points than his teammate. Each of those seasons he led in p/gp but not points, he only missed out by 4 points at the most. If Sundin was so clearly better than Alfredsson as you're claiming, then you shouldn't need to rely on such bizarro arguments.


Alfredsson played on the same wing as Hossa, they were not linemates. Alfredsson spent majority of his time with Fisher and Todd White. Sundin played with Mogilny. If Sundin was as good as you're claiming, he would've made his linemates better. Why do you think Spezza, Yashin, and Heatley were never as good once they left Ottawa? Because Alfredsson had that effect on everyone he played with. He elevated his linemates, that's what good players do.

What a silly argument. They weren't as good BC they were firmly out of their primes... You're the moving goalposts

 

[Divine]

Alfredsson was leading the Red Wings in scoring when he was three years older.

Just no staying power I guess.

And yet he still couldn't catch Sundin's stats. Unfortunate. If only he was better.

Lol, he had 1 year improvement, after whining in his 4th year, that he was being bumped to second line and second PP, parts of the year.

Ottawa : 105,103,82,72
Post Ottawa: 82,64,53,21,28,0 and AHL

Breaking news:

Aging players start to decline eventually.

More at 6.

 

[CupInSIX]

Sundin was a tank. He always seemed to score on a breakaway, too. I know his shootout record was something like 40% but it probably would have been a lot higher in his prime.

 

[SuperScript29]

Sundin.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Alfie because Sundin threw a jagged broken stick at his own fans

 

[swiftwin]

On what do you base better leader?

I picked Sundin in general but I don't see the evidence for better leader.

Yeah, Sundin was a choker, never made it past the conference finals.

Yeah outside of 07, I can't remember a truly great PO run by Alfie.

1998 against the Devils

 

[Umingmak]

Sundin, and it’s not even close. Alfredsson played with better linemates in a more competent organization for most of his career, and yet Sundin still had the better career.