Who was the better player: Daniel Alfredsson or Mats Sundin?

[hamzarocks]

Alfredsson's very close offensively (slight edge to Sundin here), but far better defensively. Alfredsson was definitely the better player, Sundin was always overrated as hell because he played for Toronto. Skilled player, no heart.

Alfredsson one of the biggest losers of all time

Cried and whined whenever thing didn't go his way

If Sundin had no heart than neither did he

 

[hamzarocks]

It’s insane that Sundin is on that 100 greatest players list. Wtf??? He shouldn’t even be top 500.

This satire?

 

[Sting]

It's actually a pretty good comparison. You have one guy that peaked early (Sundin) when scoring was higher in the league and one guy who peaked later (Alfredsson).

As a Sens fan, I'd probably take the 1C over the 1RW. I do think Sundin was probably the better overall player, but Alfredsson had qualities he didn't.

What I thought was interesting between the two is that their career CF% is near identical.

 

[tomi2]

As a finn, I really feared Sundin when team Finland played against them. Never had that kind of feeling with Alfie. Imo Sundin was much better international player and had the better NHL-career.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Sundin. Better goalscorer, better leader and simply better player.

 

[stevo61]

I like Alfredsson but Id take Sundin fairly easily. I feel like Alfredsson had a tiny bit better situation with Spezza and Heatley vs Sundin with Antropov and Ponikarovsky. Wasnt Mogilny the only player to outscore Sundin while Sundin was part of the Leafs?

 

[Xspyrit]

Not true; in 2005-2006 GPG was 3.08, followed by 2.95 the year after and 2.91 in 2009.

Damn, I looked at the wrong column so my numbers are wrong but the point remains : vast difference between NHL scoring in Sundin's first 4 years (5th year was more similar to NHL highest scoring years during Alfredsson's career) and Alfie most years in the NHL.

I don't know where you got that number from. I'm assuming you added both his regular season and playoffs together. That would be:

1257P in 1370GP (0.917PPG) for Alfredsson
1431P in 1437GP (0.995PPG) for Sundin

I mean sure, if you increase Alfredsson's total points and reduce his games played and decrease Sundin's points and increase his games played it looks closer. Unfortunately for you, it can easily be looked up.

Sorry if I didn't state the obvious : this is Era Adjusted Points

I thought it was really obvious due to my subsequent argument but looks like I was wrong.

Don't be too quick to laugh when you're too slow to understand

I edited to avoid any confusion, sorry again

 

[Felidae]

Sundin had more points that Alfredsson.
Sundin had more P/GP than Alfredsson.
Sundin had more points in his peak season than Alfredsson.
Sundin had more gold medals than Alfredsson.
Sundin led his team in scoring way more often than Alfredsson.
Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin.


Which of what I said is not true?

None of what you said isn't true.

But your first 3 points are missing crucial context.

Sundin played the start of his career in a significantly higher scoring era. Which explains the gap in PPG raw points, and having a better peak season in terms of raw points.

If you compare their top 10 point finishes however..

Alfredsson: 4, 7, 9

Sundin: 4, 7

That 114 point season Sundin had was just outside the top 10 in the league.

In actuality, they are pretty close offensively


As for Sundin leading his team in scoring more. Sundin's consistency as a high end point producer is probably his best trait. It also helps that he played more full seasons than Alfredsson, who only has a single 80 game season in his 18 year career. Another poster mentioned he lead his team in PPG 9 times. So it's not like on a per game basis he wasn't usually the best point producer on the team.

Lastly, you mention Alfredsson having better teammates which is true, but you make it a point to emphasize Sundin leading his team in scoring more times.. Its easier to lead your team in scoring when your the lone star on the team. It speaks to Sundin having less help yes, but not necessarily Sundin>Alfredsson offensively.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Sundin and the gap is clear.

 

[Divine]

Lastly, you mention Alfredsson having better teammates which is true, but you make it a point to emphasize Sundin leading his team in scoring more times.. Its easier to lead your team in scoring when your the lone star on the team. It speaks to Sundin having less help yes, but not necessarily Sundin>Alfredsson offensively.

Actually, my point is the opposite. The fact Sundin outscored Alfredsson with inferior teammates speaks to the difference offensively being more than the points alone suggest. I think most people would agree if you play with better players, you should put up more points.

So in a head to head comparison, you could argue that Alfredsson's points were inflated relative to Sundin due to quality of help.

Better teammates = more goals = more points per player

My argument is the difference is greater than the points alone would suggest.

Understanding that, you cannot ignore the fact that if Sundin had Heatley and Spezza in their prime that his peak seasons would have been greater. Just as Alfredsson's would have been lower with Sundin's linemates. So that peak argument alone is unfair. Also unfair you adjust for era but not linesmates when it comes to Sundin. Easier to finish top 10 when your linemates are also top 10.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Sundin's NHL career is a bit underwhelming compared to his international resume. I don't know why. Was he a worse player when he wore the Leaf jersey?

 

[bert]

Sundin was better in best on best so kind of hard to say overrated just because Toronto.

Alfie lead Sweden in scoring not Sundin.

They are one year apart in age. Their production in the years their NHL careers overlapped was a wash. Alfredsson had 355 goals and 921 points in 932 games (0.99 ppg). Sundin had 408 goals and 968 points in 975 games (0.99 ppg).

Alfredsson outproduced Sundin in the playoffs in goals and points during the years their careers overlapped, and while Sundin's best showing saw him put up 8 goals and 16 points in 17 games, Alfredsson's top performance was Conn Smythe worthy, leading the league in goals, with 14 and points, with 22 in 20 games.

Sundin produced a great amount in the five NHL seasons prior to Alfie's Calder year, but as it was a very high scoring environment in those years, he did not land himself in any top 10 category.

Sundin's international resume prior to Alfie coming on the scene was also very impressive, with strong showings, and multiple golds in world championships.

Alfredsson matched Sundin's 20 points in 16 Olympic games as teammates and went on to play in two more Olympics, adding an addition 5 goals and 7 points, and another silver. As was pointed out, Alfie led the Swedes in goals and points when they took home gold in Torino. Sundin did lead all players with 9 points in a losing cause in SLC. Going back even further, Alfredsson tied Forsberg for the Swedish lead in points in Nagano with 5 in 4 games.

And Alfredsson finished his career strong, leading Detroit in scoring as a 41 year old, and producing far more in the second half of his career.

Sundin had the clear advantage as a young player, Alfredsson as an older player.

I vote Sundin, but it is very, very close.

Good breakdown.

 

[Felidae]

Actually, my point is the opposite. The fact Sundin outscored Alfredsson with inferior teammates speaks to the difference offensively being more than the points alone suggest. I think most people would agree if you play with better players, you should put up more points.

So in a head to head comparison, you could argue that Alfredsson's points were inflated relative to Sundin due to quality of help.

Better teammates = more goals = more points per player

My argument is the difference is greater than the points alone would suggest.

Understanding that, you cannot ignore the fact that if Sundin had Heatley and Spezza in their prime that his peak seasons would have been greater. Just as Alfredsson's would have been lower with Sundin's linemates. So that peak argument alone is unfair. Also unfair you adjust for era but not linesmates when it comes to Sundin. Easier to finish top 10 when your linemates are also top 10.

In 2003-04, Alfredsson finished 7th in scoring. Yes, his teammate Marian Hossa finished 5th in scoring. But they were also both right wings. If someone can confirm that they weren't regular linemates, then it shows Alfredsson doesn't need Spezza and/or Heatley on his line to produce elite offensive numbers. The 3 other centers on the team had point production that ranged from 44 to 55 points, while Alfredsson had 80.

Either way though, im not sure how we can go about "adjusting" for linemates. It's not a gaurentee that Sundin's production takes a significant jump with better linemates, if at all. It's not always that simple. The best, most recent example I can think of is Tavares. Many people thought his production would increase joining the Maple leafs, but he never actually finished top 10 in points ever again even though he beat his career highs in points and goals. That had more to do with the league wide increase in scoring than anything else.

 

[Felidae]

Sundin was most definitely an elite C around the turn of the century. Led all Cs in scoring in 01–02 for instance in front of Sakic, Oates, Demitra, Modano and Francis.

And as for people drooling over Alfredsson's defense, I don't think he necessarily had much of a gap there on Sundin, reputational Selke voting be damned. Sundin was an all-situations player who was great at face-offs, and played regularly on the PK. Even if Alfie was better at conventional 5vs5 defense, I don't think it was by such a margin it really makes any tangible difference here, it's not like he was Zetterberg defensively.

Career shorthanded points: Sundin 56, Alfie 43.

While I would pick Sundin here, Alfredsson was a great player too that any team would want.

Alfredsson doesn't have to be Zetterberg defensively to have a noticeable edge in defensive play.

We can scoff at the selke voting, but I think it's pretty telling that Alfredsson has a better record for an award that heavily steers towards and favors centers.

Here's how their Selke records compare.

Alfredsson: 4, 10, 11, 15, 20, 35, 38

Sundin: 32, 37

When 2 players are this close, I do think every aspect of play matters when determining who's better, and I think that's the case here.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Sundin's NHL career is a bit underwhelming compared to his international resume. I don't know why. Was he a worse player when he wore the Leaf jersey?

Cheating in the 2006 Olympics padded Sundin's international resume.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Sundin and the gap is clear.

76.8% of us here can see that. Not sure what the other 23.2% are looking at, to be honest. Memes?

 

[Hockeyholic]

Sundin.

Would I want either to lead my team in a PO run? No.

 

[trentmccleary]

And as for people drooling over Alfredsson's defense, I don't think he necessarily had much of a gap there on Sundin, reputational Selke voting be damned. Sundin was an all-situations player who was great at face-offs, and played regularly on the PK. Even if Alfie was better at conventional 5vs5 defense, I don't think it was by such a margin it really makes any tangible difference here, it's not like he was Zetterberg defensively.

Period	Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	TGA	GA/GP
1995-09	Sundin	1022​	429​	586​	1015​	0.42​	0.99​	953​	0.93​
1996-10	Alfredsson	1002​	375​	617​	992​	0.37​	0.99​	795​	0.79​
Career	Zetterberg	1082​	337​	623​	960​	0.31​	0.89​	851​	0.79​

TGA - total goals against

That's a huge difference in GA/GP, especially considering the fact that Toronto had better goaltending for approximately 3/4's of that timespan with Joseph, Belfour and Potvin. Alfredsson was significantly better defensively than Sundin. It's not close.

 

[Regal]

Period	Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	TGA	GA/GP
1995-09	Sundin	1022​	429​	586​	1015​	0.42​	0.99​	953​	0.93​
1996-10	Alfredsson	1002​	375​	617​	992​	0.37​	0.99​	795​	0.79​
Career	Zetterberg	1082​	337​	623​	960​	0.31​	0.89​	851​	0.79​

TGA - total goals against

That's a huge difference in GA/GP, especially considering the fact that Toronto had better goaltending for approximately 3/4's of that timespan with Joseph, Belfour and Potvin. Alfredsson was significantly better defensively than Sundin. It's not close.

I don’t think this is a good way to look at it. Ottawa was a far better defensive team than the Leafs for most of their primes, regardless of goaltending. From 95-96 to 07-08, the Sens had the 7th best GA/G at 2.60. The Leafs were 21st at 2.87. Alfredsson might have had a hand in that, but it’s certainly not all due to the difference between them.

Sundin also regularly played about 30 second more per game over this time frame (though we only have numbers from 97-98 on) on the PK which affects overall GA numbers. Alfredsson rarely PKed from 97-98 to 03-04 averaging only 34 seconds a game. As such, in your time frames, Sundin had 222 SH goals against while Alfredsson only had 134. So at ES, their goals against numbers were 0.66 for Alfredsson and 0.72 for Sundin.

 

[Phil McKraken]

Sundin's NHL career is a bit underwhelming compared to his international resume. I don't know why. Was he a worse player when he wore the Leaf jersey?

How do you figure? He was a top 10-20 player for almost two decades.

 

[NyQuil]

I don’t think this is a good way to look at it. Ottawa was a far better defensive team than the Leafs for most of their primes, regardless of goaltending. From 95-96 to 07-08, the Sens had the 7th best GA/G at 2.60. The Leafs were 21st at 2.87. Alfredsson might have had a hand in that, but it’s certainly not all due to the difference between them.

Toronto also played a more open style that contributed to more offense while Jacques Martin rolled four lines, played the trap and limited icetime for his top players.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Regal]

Toronto also played a more open style that contributed to more offense while Jacques Martin rolled four lines, played the trap and limited icetime for his top players.

You can't have it both ways.

I’m not having it both ways, I’m pointing out a flaw in the argument. If the poster wants to simultaneously argue that their teams style affected their point totals, that’s a separate argument, but looking at total goals against to examine defensive ability/results is a poor one

 

[Golden_Jet]

Heatley's production went up when he left Ottawa. Turns out playing with good players increases your stats, who would have thought. All your stats have proven was Alfredsson wasn't a bad NHL player, no one ever argued he was.

He could be both a great player and still worse than Sundin.

No one is saying he's a scrub. I would assume a player who made the Hall of Fame was a great player. However, he's no Mats Sundin.

Statistically, how is Alfredsson better than Sundin?

If you can concede that Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin, but worse stats - how is he better than Sundin?

Wrong again on your stats , Heatleys production went down , that’s why he was traded, he was a one trick pony, lazy , and slow, with a great shot.
His fourth year he was on and off the line.

 

[trentmccleary]

I don’t think this is a good way to look at it. Ottawa was a far better defensive team than the Leafs for most of their primes, regardless of goaltending. From 95-96 to 07-08, the Sens had the 7th best GA/G at 2.60. The Leafs were 21st at 2.87. Alfredsson might have had a hand in that, but it’s certainly not all due to the difference between them.

Sundin also regularly played about 30 second more per game over this time frame (though we only have numbers from 97-98 on) on the PK which affects overall GA numbers. Alfredsson rarely PKed from 97-98 to 03-04 averaging only 34 seconds a game. As such, in your time frames, Sundin had 222 SH goals against while Alfredsson only had 134. So at ES, their goals against numbers were 0.66 for Alfredsson and 0.72 for Sundin.

The Leafs had much better goaltending and an infinitely higher payroll. They should have been capable of defending.

The gap closes, but it's still not particularly close when we cut it down to even strength goals and goals while on the PP against.

Period	Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	EVGA	GA/GP
1995-09	Sundin	1022​	429​	586​	1015​	0.42​	0.99​	751​	0.73​
1996-10	Alfredsson	1002​	375​	617​	992​	0.37​	0.99​	661​	0.66​
Career	Zetterberg	1082​	337​	623​	960​	0.31​	0.89​	711​	0.66​

Their SH TOI is close from 1998 until the end of time period I chose. Even equalized for TOI, 31% more SH goals were scored while Sundin was killing penalties vs Alfredsson.
Sundin = 1:35 game (7.5 SHGA/60)
Alfredsson = 1:21 game (5.7 SHGA/60)

I’m not having it both ways, I’m pointing out a flaw in the argument. If the poster wants to simultaneously argue that their teams style affected their point totals, that’s a separate argument, but looking at total goals against to examine defensive ability/results is a poor one

Every defensive stat is a proxy measure that doesn't directly measure defensive play, but it's a lot better than saying something like "I'm going to ignore all evidence and say that the guy I like is better".

All of the available evidence points to Alfredsson being significantly better than Sundin defensively.

 

[Regal]

The Leafs had much better goaltending and an infinitely higher payroll. They should have been capable of defending.

The gap closes, but it's still not particularly close when we cut it down to even strength goals and goals while on the PP against.

Period	Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	EVGA	GA/GP
1995-09	Sundin	1022​	429​	586​	1015​	0.42​	0.99​	751​	0.73​
1996-10	Alfredsson	1002​	375​	617​	992​	0.37​	0.99​	661​	0.66​
Career	Zetterberg	1082​	337​	623​	960​	0.31​	0.89​	711​	0.66​

Their SH TOI is close from 1998 until the end of time period I chose. Even equalized for TOI, 31% more SH goals were scored while Sundin was killing penalties vs Alfredsson.
Sundin = 1:35 game (7.5 SHGA/60)
Alfredsson = 1:21 game (5.7 SHGA/60)




Every defensive stat is a proxy measure that doesn't directly measure defensive play, but it's a lot better than saying something like "I'm going to ignore all evidence and say that the guy I like is better".

All of the available evidence points to Alfredsson being significantly better than Sundin defensively.

Those stats don’t point to him being “significantly better” whatsoever. It’s a small advantage at ES before even factoring in team goals against. As for SH, Alfredsson was better, but most forwards have been shown to have only a small influence on goals against there. There’s a lot of context that goes into the numbers that this ignores. Pointing that out isn’t ignoring stats. And you’re the one who is ignoring the GA stats in favour of claims of better goaltending and payroll, so it’s funny that you think others are ignoring stats. And I never said anything about liking Sundin more. I think they’re similar level players. Your GA argument is just problematic.