Who was the better player: Daniel Alfredsson or Mats Sundin?

[The Tourist]

Sundin by a mile.

 

[The90]

Hmm, let's see........

Career goals
Sundin = 564
Alfie = 444

Career points
Sundin = 1349
Alfie = 1157

Best single season
Sundiin = 47G/114P
Alfie = 43G/103P

Number of 80+ point seasons
Sundin = 6
Alfie = 4

Number of 30+ goal seasons
Sundin = 13
Alfie = 4

Number of medals at int'l tourneys
Sundin = 8 (4 gold)
Alfie = 6 (1 gold)

Number of years as Team Sweden's Captain
Sundin = 10
Alfie = 1

Voted into "100 best players of all time" by the NHL
Sundin = 1
Alfie = 0


Yeah........close one.

That’s a pretty compelling argument lol. Or should be, anyways.

 

[Divine]

He led the team in scoring in 2005-06. Was on pace to lead the team in scoring in 2007-08. All while being the best defensive forward on the team. It really goes to show how grossly misinformed and ignorant people are towards Alfredsson as a player. I hate to say it, but a lot of fans don't really know what they're talking about here.

He was tied for the lead in 2005-2006, and then on pace but didn't lead in 07-08*

This shows his talent was just as good if not better than him. Sundin led his team in scoring almost every season. Alfredsson rarely did. As soon as Alfredsson's talent around him dropped to what Sundin had, all of a sudden his peak disappeared. Magic.

 

[kp61c]

Voted into "100 best players of all time" by the NHL
Sundin = 1
Alfie = 0


Yeah........close one.

sudnin over malkin there too? jesus.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

He was tied for the lead in 2005-2006, and then on pace but didn't lead in 07-08*

This shows his talent was just as good if not better than him. Sundin led his team in scoring almost every season. Alfredsson rarely did.

Alfredsson led Ottawa in p/gp 9 times, Sundin led Toronto 11 times. Again, you continue to show you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to Daniel Alfredsson. At this point it would surprise me if you actually ever watched a single game of his.

 

[Divine]

Alfredsson led Ottawa in p/gp 9 times, Sundin led Toronto 11 times. Again, you continue to show you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to Daniel Alfredsson. At this point it would surprise me if you actually ever watched a single game of his.

Forget P/GP.

Tell me how many times he led in actual points. Durability has always counted in the NHL. Do people credit Lindros for what he was on pace for?

It's the same reason that Panerin won the Calder over McDavid even though McDavid was 'on pace for' more. The NHL never cared about on-pace for. Generally that pace drops over more games. The same reason why Crosby's best seasons (on-pace) were his fewest number of games played.

When you compare them head to head. Sundin had more goals/more points with worst talent.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Forget P/GP.

Tell me how many times he led in actual points. Durability has always counted in the NHL. Do people credit Lindros for what he was on pace for?

It's the same reason that Panerin won the Calder over McDavid even though McDavid was 'on pace for' more. The NHL never cared about on-pace for. Generally that pace drops over more games. The same reason why Crosby's best seasons (on-pace) were his fewest number of games played.

When you compare them head to head. Sundin had more goals/more points with worst talent.

Moving the goalposts I guess. Alfredsson's durability was fine, he would miss usually 10 or so games a season, which was usually just enough for someone to have an extra point or two. He still led the team in points like 5 or 6 times. You have embarrassed yourself for the last time. Stop moving the goalposts, and stop discussing a player you have no knowledge on.

 

[Divine]

Moving the goalposts I guess. Alfredsson's durability was fine, he would miss usually 10 or so games a season, which was usually just enough for someone to have an extra point or two. He still led the team in points like 5 or 6 times. You have embarrassed yourself for the last time. Stop moving the goalposts, and stop discussing a player you have no knowledge on.

Sundin had more points that Alfredsson.
Sundin had more P/GP than Alfredsson.
Sundin had more points in his peak season than Alfredsson.
Sundin had more gold medals than Alfredsson.
Sundin led his team in scoring way more often than Alfredsson.
Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin.


Which of what I said is not true?

 

[Voight]

It's very close

Sundin 1410 pts in 1346 GP

Alfredsson 1261 pts in 1246 GP

Sundin played more games as he started playing in the NHL much younger than Alfie who played more seasons in the Elitserien

When Alfredsson joined the NHL, Sundin had played 5 full NHL seasons already where the league scoring average was 3.26 Goals per Game per Team. Alfie played his WHOLE career in low scoring NHL seasons. The highest was his rookie season (where he won the Calder) with 3.04 G/GP. The 2nd highest was 2.92 and the 3rd highest was 2.80, then a lot of seasons around 2.55-2.60 G/GP

Even their playoffs and international resumes are close, slightly in Sundin's favor but Alfie's 2-way game is what makes this super close.

I voted Alfie but the reality is "too close to call" (which should be a poll option). There's no case of Center > Winger here as Alfie's game was very elaborated, so complete

Not true; in 2005-2006 GPG was 3.08, followed by 2.95 the year after and 2.91 in 2009.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Sundin had more points that Alfredsson.
Sundin had more P/GP than Alfredsson.
Sundin had more points in his peak season than Alfredsson.
Sundin had more gold medals than Alfredsson.
Sundin led his team in scoring way more often than Alfredsson.
Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin.


Which of what I said is not true?

You said that Alfredsson rarely was the best player on his team. Something that was easily disputable.

 

[Divine]

You said that Alfredsson rarely was the best player on his team. Something that was easily disputable.

Statistically, it's not really debateable.

More often than not, he wasn't the best player on his team points wise.

 

[TheRumble]

There are two types of people who'd say Alfredsson:

Ottawa Senator fans

Daniel Alfredsson's family members.

 

[Divine]

It's very close

Sundin 1410 pts in 1346 GP

Alfredsson 1261 pts in 1246 GP

Sundin played more games as he started playing in the NHL much younger than Alfie who played more seasons in the Elitserien

When Alfredsson joined the NHL, Sundin had played 5 full NHL seasons already where the league scoring average was 3.26 Goals per Game per Team. Alfie played his WHOLE career in low scoring NHL seasons. The highest was his rookie season (where he won the Calder) with 3.04 G/GP. The 2nd highest was 2.92 and the 3rd highest was 2.80, then a lot of seasons around 2.55-2.60 G/GP

Even their playoffs and international resumes are close, slightly in Sundin's favor but Alfie's 2-way game is what makes this super close.

I voted Alfie but the reality is "too close to call" (which should be a poll option). There's no case of Center > Winger here as Alfie's game was very elaborated, so complete

I don't know where you got that number from. I'm assuming you added both his regular season and playoffs together. That would be:

1257P in 1370GP (0.917PPG) for Alfredsson
1431P in 1437GP (0.995PPG) for Sundin

I mean sure, if you increase Alfredsson's total points and reduce his games played and decrease Sundin's points and increase his games played it looks closer. Unfortunately for you, it can easily be looked up.

Alfredsson had better teammates too. He had Spezza/Heatley/Yashin/Hossa. Who did Sundin have?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Statistically, it's not really debateable.

More often than not, he wasn't the best player on his team points wise.

*debatable.

I already explained this to you, Alfredsson would miss around 10 games every season, which would cause him to lose out by a few points. For example, all the times he finished 2nd in points on his team:

1996-97: 4 less points than Yashin, played 6 less games. Higher p/gp

1999-00: 1 less point than Bonk. Played 23 less games. Higher p/gp

2002-03: 2 less points than Hossa. Played 2 less games. Same p/gp

2003-04: 2 less points than Hossa. Played 4 less games. Higher p/gp

2007-08: 3 less points than Spezza. Played 6 less games. Higher p/gp

This whole narrative you're trying to paint that Alfredsson was never the best player on his team, or more often than not wasn't the best player on the team, is bizarre. He led his team in p/gp only 2 less seasons than Sundin (and as you admitted yourself, had more competition in that regard), and as you can see, this wasn't the case of him only playing half the season and scoring 20 less points than his teammate. Each of those seasons he led in p/gp but not points, he only missed out by 4 points at the most. If Sundin was so clearly better than Alfredsson as you're claiming, then you shouldn't need to rely on such bizarro arguments.

I don't know where you got that number from. I'm assuming you added both his regular season and playoffs together. That would be:

1257P in 1370GP (0.917PPG) for Alfredsson
1431P in 1437GP (0.995PPG) for Sundin

I mean sure, if you increase Alfredsson's total points and reduce his games played and decrease Sundin's points and increase his games played it looks closer. Unfortunately for you, it can easily be looked up.

Alfredsson had better teammates too. He had Spezza/Heatley/Yashin/Hossa. Who did Sundin have?

Alfredsson played on the same wing as Hossa, they were not linemates. Alfredsson spent majority of his time with Fisher and Todd White. Sundin played with Mogilny. If Sundin was as good as you're claiming, he would've made his linemates better. Why do you think Spezza, Yashin, and Heatley were never as good once they left Ottawa? Because Alfredsson had that effect on everyone he played with. He elevated his linemates, that's what good players do.

 

[Divine]

*debatable.

I already explained this to you, Alfredsson would miss around 10 games every season, which would cause him to lose out by a few points. For example, all the times he finished 2nd in points on his team:

1996-97: 4 less points than Yashin, played 6 less games. Higher p/gp

1999-00: 1 less point than Bonk. Played 23 less games. Higher p/gp

2002-03: 2 less points than Hossa. Played 2 less games. Same p/gp

2003-04: 2 less points than Hossa. Played 4 less games. Higher p/gp

2007-08: 3 less points than Spezza. Played 6 less games. Higher p/gp

This whole narrative you're trying to paint that Alfredsson was never the best player on his team, or more often than not wasn't the best player on the team, is bizarre. He led his team in p/gp only 2 less seasons than Sundin (and as you admitted yourself, had more competition in that regard), and as you can see, this wasn't the case of him only playing half the season and scoring 20 less points than his teammate. Each of those seasons he led in p/gp but not points, he only missed out by 4 points at the most. If Sundin was so clearly better than Alfredsson as you're claiming, then you shouldn't need to rely on such bizarro arguments.

Okay, let's say I concede that. So he's led his teams in P/GP 5 times in his 18 year career.

Versus Sundin who led his team in scoring 14 times in his 18 year career. By a significant margin too. He could miss 10 games a season and would still comfortably lead his team, his teammates weren't as close to him.

How is it not fair to say Alfredsson was rarely the best player on his team? 5 of 18 is 28% of his career he was the leading scorer on his team in P/GP.

 

[Divine]

This whole narrative you're trying to paint that Alfredsson was never the best player on his team, or more often than not wasn't the best player on the team, is bizarre. He led his team in p/gp only 2 less seasons than Sundin (and as you admitted yourself, had more competition in that regard), and as you can see, this wasn't the case of him only playing half the season and scoring 20 less points than his teammate. Each of those seasons he led in p/gp but not points, he only missed out by 4 points at the most. If Sundin was so clearly better than Alfredsson as you're claiming, then you shouldn't need to rely on such bizarro arguments.


Alfredsson played on the same wing as Hossa, they were not linemates. Alfredsson spent majority of his time with Fisher and Todd White. Sundin played with Mogilny. If Sundin was as good as you're claiming, he would've made his linemates better. Why do you think Spezza, Yashin, and Heatley were never as good once they left Ottawa? Because Alfredsson had that effect on everyone he played with. He elevated his linemates, that's what good players do.

Mogilny was on the Leafs for 2.5 seasons before he retired. I'm talking about players in their prime.

Sundin did elevate his teammates. His teammmates just weren't as good as Alfredsson's. Alfredsson was never as good when Spezza/Yashin/Heatley/Hossa weren't there either, it goes both ways. Also, the players Alfredsson played with played their prime in Ottawa and left when they were older - obviously their production dropped, it was dropping in Ottawa too season by season before they left.

It's like saying Matthews played with Spezza too, but Spezza was way better with Alfredsson, so Alfredsson > Matthews.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Okay, let's say I concede that. So he's led his teams in P/GP 5 times in his 18 year career.

Versus Sundin who led his team in scoring 14 times in his 18 year career. By a significant margin too. He could miss 10 games a season and would still comfortably lead his team, his teammates weren't as close to him.

How is it not fair to say Alfredsson was rarely the best player on his team? 5 of 18 is 28% of his career he was the leading scorer on his team in P/GP.

I already told you Alfredsson led his team in P/GP 9 times in his career. Where are you getting 5 times from?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Mogilny was on the Leafs for 2.5 seasons before he retired. I'm talking about players in their prime.

Sundin did elevate his teammates. His teammmates just weren't as good as Alfredsson's. Alfredsson was never as good when Spezza/Yashin/Heatley/Hossa weren't there either, it goes both ways. Also, the players Alfredsson played with played their prime in Ottawa and left when they were older - obviously their production dropped, it was dropping in Ottawa too season by season before they left.

It's like saying Matthews played with Spezza too, but Spezza was way better with Alfredsson, so Alfredsson > Matthews.

This is a pretty poor argument, because we're not comparing his teammates to a 10 year gap from when they played with Alfie to when they didn't (i.e. your example with Spezza). We saw what happened when Yashin went from playing with Alfie to the Islanders. He was a 40 goal 88 point player his last season in Ottawa. The very next season his points and goals went down. We saw what happened with Heatley. Went from scoring 40 goals and 80 points in 70 games to 72 points in 82 games as soon as he was taken off Alfie's line. We saw what happened with Spezza, went from a 92 point guy to a 73 point guy the next season. Alfie always made every single player he played with substantially better, which is the mark of a great player.

 

[Divine]

This is a pretty poor argument, because we're not comparing his teammates to a 10 year gap from when they played with Alfie to when they didn't (i.e. your example with Spezza). We saw what happened when Yashin went from playing with Alfie to the Islanders. He was a 40 goal 88 point player his last season in Ottawa. The very next season his points and goals went down. We saw what happened with Heatley. Went from scoring 40 goals and 80 points in 70 games to 72 points in 82 games as soon as he was taken off Alfie's line. We saw what happened with Spezza, went from a 92 point guy to a 73 point guy the next season. Alfie always made every single player he played with substantially better, which is the mark of a great player.

Heatley's production went up when he left Ottawa. Turns out playing with good players increases your stats, who would have thought. All your stats have proven was Alfredsson wasn't a bad NHL player, no one ever argued he was.

He could be both a great player and still worse than Sundin.

No one is saying he's a scrub. I would assume a player who made the Hall of Fame was a great player. However, he's no Mats Sundin.

Statistically, how is Alfredsson better than Sundin?

If you can concede that Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin, but worse stats - how is he better than Sundin?

 

[TheRumble]

If you can concede that Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin, but worse stats - how is he better than Sundin?

Because he was an Ottawa Senator.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

It was Heatley and Spezza who were lucky to be playing with Daniel Alfredsson. He was a much better player than either of those guys. I also believe he was much stronger defensively than Sundin ever was.

And it was Hogland and several others who were lucky to play with Sundin. It's closer than the poll results, but outside of an aging Robert's and a stint with Mogilny, Sundin played with middle-six wingers.

 

[sr edler]

But Alfredsson at his very peak was better than Sundin ever was.

Alfredsson from 2005-2008 was an ELITE winger.

Sundin was most definitely an elite C around the turn of the century. Led all Cs in scoring in 01–02 for instance in front of Sakic, Oates, Demitra, Modano and Francis.

And as for people drooling over Alfredsson's defense, I don't think he necessarily had much of a gap there on Sundin, reputational Selke voting be damned. Sundin was an all-situations player who was great at face-offs, and played regularly on the PK. Even if Alfie was better at conventional 5vs5 defense, I don't think it was by such a margin it really makes any tangible difference here, it's not like he was Zetterberg defensively.

Career shorthanded points: Sundin 56, Alfie 43.

While I would pick Sundin here, Alfredsson was a great player too that any team would want.

 

[mr figgles]

Sundin. This isn’t even in the realm of being remotely close.

 

[EdJovanovski]

It’s insane that Sundin is on that 100 greatest players list. Wtf??? He shouldn’t even be top 500.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Heatley's production went up when he left Ottawa. Turns out playing with good players increases your stats, who would have thought. All your stats have proven was Alfredsson wasn't a bad NHL player, no one ever argued he was.

He could be both a great player and still worse than Sundin.

No one is saying he's a scrub. I would assume a player who made the Hall of Fame was a great player. However, he's no Mats Sundin.

Statistically, how is Alfredsson better than Sundin?

If you can concede that Alfredsson had better teammates than Sundin, but worse stats - how is he better than Sundin?

Heatley played with Alfredsson for 3 seasons. His 4th season in Ottawa the CASH line was split up, and he no longer played on a line with Alfredsson, and his point totals immediately dropped by quite a bit.

I didn't claim Alfredsson is statistically better than Sundin. In fact, I gave a slight edge to Sundin for offense (if you compare their era adjusted points, Sundin scored at a rate of 1.04 p/gp, while Alfredsson scored at a rate of 1.01 p/gp). Both had extremely similar point finishes in the league. I think that Alfredsson had a pretty big advantage defensively however, and was the more complete player of the two.