Who is the greater player all-time (as of today)? Rank them. Crosby vs Ovechkin vs Jagr

[KevinRedkey]

Right now:
Jagr > Crosby > Ovechkin

In a few seasons:
Ovechkin > Crosby > Jagr

 

[Fig]

As of today as per OP's post I would put it:

Jagr >= Crosby >= Ovechkin

It's damn close but I put it as Jagr by a hair due to the longevity which includes a break from the NHL.

But I'd also say that Crosby and Ovi have qitte a bit more in the tank and they should easily begin leapfrogging Jagr/leaving him in the dust within a season or two.

 

[KidLine93]

He was the one who brought team achievements and teammates into the debate. I think you missed the point of my post. Unless you think Ovechkin had no support in Washington/Team Russia over his career

 

[bobholly39]

Lindros tied Jagr in 95 in points.

Yeah and he missed 9 games in 1996 and wasn't beating Jagr for Ross nor Hart, since he wasn't even a runner up to Lemieux.

Still not sure why we're even having this exchange. Do you have a point?

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah and he missed 9 games in 1996 and wasn't beating Jagr for Ross nor Hart, since he wasn't even a runner up to Lemieux.

Still not sure why we're even having this exchange. Do you have a point?

You’re the one bringing up factious arguments like Jags wins the Ross in 96 without Mario.

 

[Gurglesons]

He was the one who brought team achievements and teammates into the debate. I think you missed the point of my post. Unless you think Ovechkin had no support in Washington/Team Russia over his career

I think there is an argument to discredit Jagr’s point spreads when his team was basically an entire support system to make Jagr succeed.

Ovechkin’s best seasons came in a similar system until 08-09. Whenever the Penguins were an actual team with championship aspirations Jagr was not the best player.

I feel like when we are discussing greats this type of argument holds some value. Otherwise Dionne would be viewed much higher.

 

[KidLine93]

I think there is an argument to discredit Jagr’s point spreads when his team was basically an entire support system to make Jagr succeed.

Ovechkin’s best seasons came in a similar system until 08-09. Whenever the Penguins were an actual team with championship aspirations Jagr was not the best player.

I feel like when we are discussing greats this type of argument holds some value. Otherwise Dionne would be viewed much higher.

All those years Ovechkin put up huge numbers and the system was based around him to succeed the team came up short in the playoffs failing to pass the 2nd round. In the year Ovi actually won the cup he was outplayed and outscored by Kuznetsov, they gave him the Conn Smtyh as a long time achievement award (Much like when Crosby beat out Kessel for the Conn Smyth in the Penguins 2016 Cup win).

Do we need to discredit Every guy who won with Gretzky, Lemieux on their team. So then Ray Bourque isn't as good as Scott Niedermayer now because Bourque wasn't the best player on that avalanche team that won (sakic) but Niedermayer won the conn smyth the year his Ducks won?

Or we can look at stats and realize Jagr lead the NHL in scoring 5 times despite playing part of his career competing for scoring races/MVPs with the 2nd best player of all time.

 

[Gurglesons]

All those years Ovechkin put up huge numbers and the system was based around him to succeed the team came up short in the playoffs failing to pass the 2nd round. In the year Ovi actually won the cup he was outplayed and outscored by Kuznetsov, they gave him the Conn Smtyh as a long time achievement award (Much like when Crosby beat out Kessel for the Conn Smyth in the Penguins 2016 Cup win).

Do we need to discredit Every guy who won with Gretzky, Lemieux on their team. So then Ray Bourque isn't as good as Scott Niedermayer now because Bourque wasn't the best player on that avalanche team that won (sakic) but Niedermayer won the conn smyth the year his Ducks won?

Or we can look at stats and realize Jagr lead the NHL in scoring 5 times despite playing part of his career competing for scoring races/MVPs with the 2nd best player of all time.

Ray Bourque’s Bruins were a consistent contender.

Not sure you are following the argument. The point is Jagr was the best player in the league on a team that was built to make him the best player in the league. That doesn’t take away from him being the best player in the league or an all time great.

Ovechkin was the best player in the Caps run much like Sid was the best player in the Pens B2B run. Point production isn’t everything. Which is why the conversation goes Sid. Ovi. Jags.

 

[bobholly39]

You’re the one bringing up factious arguments like Jags wins the Ross in 96 without Mario.

Yes, which he would have.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I think they're fairly close as players overall, regardless of order - but it doesn't mean they have to be so close in rank. After the top 4 players, I'd say players ranked from ~5th to 20th are all supremely close. So I think there's a legitimate argument to have any of those players up to 10 ranks apart, while still being considered "close" overall.



For the longest time the hockey world considered Rocket Richard the greatest player ever. I think that's a large part of it, right or wrong, why he gets ranked very high. Looking at just stats 70 years later doesn't necessarily provide all the historical context.

Also - I think people in this thread just don't see enough lists by claiming so and so players are never seen in 5th place. I've seen any of Beliveau/Hull/Jagr/Crosby/Richard/Hasek etc etc argued as 5th best player ever.

I get that, I do and I'm not a young man but nothing about his career puts him above any of the 3 players listed here and it isn't debatable. That isn't disrespectful to say either.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

With this logic. Why couldn't Ovi win a goal medal with stacked russian rosters, while Jagr won olympic gold knocking off powerhouses while playing for the Czech??

Russia was cheating in Sochi and Ovi still couldn't get them into the medal rounds with endless firepower around him. And hey your the one who wanted to bring team stats into this. Jagr 2 cups, 1 olympic gold. Ovi 1 cup.

Jagr 1888 NHL points (left to russia for 3 years as well)
Ovechkin 1320 points

Outside of the top lines those rosters were far from stacked especially on the blue line. 2010 was the best year they had but they clearly didn't have the talent of the Canadians line to line.

 

[Varan]

As of right now, I'd go Jagr > Crosby > Ovechkin

Ultimately, I believe it'll end up Crosby > Ovechkin > Jagr

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I did vote but ovi and crosby could be interchangeable in this scenario. When you say do nothing special but break the goal record over 5 years but not win any more championships, im curious what does crosby do during this span to keep his perceived lead? He is about to be heading in to the decline everyone has predicted for Ovi and he is a far more fragile player. Really hope Crosby doesnt fall off or anything as he is an alltime great, but it seems he gets a pass for the next 5 years, while Ovi must break the ALL TIME goal record while winning more championships. Thats just silly. I agree with a previous poster, Ovi just breaking Howes mark kinda puts him in rarified air that Crosby cant touch. As great as Sid is, when he retires he will be number 1 in nothing.

Considering he was just 4th in mvp voting he will be fine. Top 10 in scoring this year

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Crosby
Jagr
Ovechkin

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Right now probably Crosby > Ovechkin > Jagr (with a very very thin line separating all 3)

If Ovechkin breaks the all-time goal record: Ovechkin > Crosby > Jagr (since this is asking "greatest" and not "best over the course of their careers")

This

 

[CokenoPepsi]

As of this moment:

1. Jagr
2. Crosby
3. Ovechkin

Jagr's peak (4 straight Art Ross', 5 in 7 years) + unmatched longevity is the difference.

Unmatched longevity?

Ovi and Crosby are already getting close to him there

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jagr leading the league in scoring 5 times, 3 MVP's, being 2nd all time in points, and winning 2 cups puts him comfortably above Ovechkin.

Jagr also had to compete for hardware against Gretzky/Mario. Tougher competition for awards than either Crosby or Ovechkin had to face.

Jagr also played in russia for 3 years in the middle of his career and dealt with similar lockouts to Ovechkin. So he had potential for higher NHL totals as well if you don't want to count their international/Pro league resumes.

Middle of his career? He was 36 years old when he went to Russia which if anything saved his career after a meh final year with the Rangers.

Plus it not like he set the world on fire when he cameback, still good but not like he was elite.

Jagr becoming overrated, he was a complimentary player compared to Sid and Ovi

 

[KidLine93]

Middle of his career? He was 36 years old when he went to Russia which if anything saved his career after a meh final year with the Rangers.

Plus it not like he set the world on fire when he cameback, still good but not like he was elite.

Jagr becoming overrated, he was a complimentary player compared to Sid and Ovi

he played 7 NHL seasons after coming back from russia and 2 of those seasons he put up over 65 points (similar to Ovechkins 2011 and 2016 seasons totals). those 3 years would have definitely added to his goals/point totals, putting him over the 2000 point mark which is a major milestone since everyone here is ignoring international and KHL play.

 

[Three On Zero]

Jagr
Crosby



Ovechkin

 

[Butch 19]

As of this moment:

1. Jagr
2. Crosby
3. Ovechkin

Jagr's peak (4 straight Art Ross', 5 in 7 years) + unmatched longevity is the difference.

LOL....

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Crosby
6. Ovechkin
7. Jagr
8. Beliveau
9. Richard
10. Hull/Harvey

Today: Jagr>Crosby>Ovechkin
In 3 years: Crosby>Ovechkin>Jagr
If Ovechkin breaks record: Ovechkin>Crosby>Jagr

Great poll question; very close between the 3, pretty much interchangeable. Some are underestimating the impact of the Great 8, the greatest goal scorer of all time (finishing near Gretzky’s record in this era is mind boggling), not just the best sniper and goal scorer, he was like a Beast unleashed in his prime, a freight train that hit everything, fast and furious on the forecheck, just a lethal winger.

 

[wetcoast]

So if Ovi scores 20 goals a year but plays 8 more years while the Caps struggle, that puts him above Crosby?

Ranking players based on counting stats is dumb. Absent some significant change in circumstances, Ovi has most likely provided 95% of his career value by now. Him Andreychuking it up isn't going to change that.

It's Crosby - Ovi - Jagr though. Pretty clear tiering between each of them.

Pretty much the part in bold but for the last part I think there is a case for Jagr being the better player but in the quote you are responding to the guy makes a distinction of greater to goal scoring but even then I'll take SC's (and I also think this isn't a great way to judge them or any set of players)

 

[wetcoast]

Lol right. Sounds like westcoasts burner account.

Hey if you don't have a point feel free to take a cheap shot instead, it really helps your arguments here.

 

[wetcoast]

Jagr's top-10 points finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 8

The only player that matches that offensive resume outside the Big 4 is Phil Esposito with 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 2, 2, 2, 7, 9, and Esposito is criminally underrated in history.

Crosby makes a good effort at 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 10, 10 but you're going to have to decide for yourself how much team success factors into a legacy - I would just take care to remember that Jagr is a Triple Gold Club member.

As far as Ovechkin, nine Rockets is a huge and historic accomplishment, but Ross > Rocket. Jagr is also one of history's better goal-scorers as well when speaking of consistency, he's a Mike Gartner type of player.

Jagr is an absolute sense does have better top 10 scoring finishes and Crosby clearly better than Ovi as well here.

But Crosby has a 15 year straight level of play in his prime that neither guy can match and a better individual playoff resume as well.

Jagr after his first 15 seasons has one more elite (in terms of scoring) one in his 16th year and then some "really good for his age ones."

Ovi at this point isn't really adding to his resume except counting stats.

 

[filinski77]

Jagr is an absolute sense does have better top 10 scoring finishes and Crosby clearly better than Ovi as well here.

But Crosby has a 15 year straight level of play in his prime that neither guy can match and a better individual playoff resume as well.

Jagr after his first 15 seasons has one more elite (in terms of scoring) one in his 16th year and then some "really good for his age ones."

Ovi at this point isn't really adding to his resume except counting stats.

How is he not adding to his resume? He had a top-10 finish in goals/gp last season, and will still challenge for the Rocket and top-20 in points this year.

And climbing the all-time point and goal leaderboards while not being a "compiler" is still adding to his resume.