Who is the 5th best offensive player of all-time ??

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see any way that it can be Richard. He's primarily a goal scorer (never won a scoring title) and he certainly wasn't a better goal scorer than Hull.

In the regular season, sure. In the playoffs, Richard outscored Hull by similar margins to what Hull outscored Richard in the regular season. And both these men played a significant sample size of playoff games (especially Richard).

Since Jagr is there, I'm throwing Forsberg into the mix.

Why on Earth would you do a thing like that? Even if Forsberg was as good overall as Jagr (and that's a big if), Jagr was significantly better offensively.

For arguments sake, is Orr really one of the 4 best offensive players of all-time? Are we going by raw results, or by offensive talent? Sure Orr might have had better offensive talent, but he was outproduced by Esposito. Most of the people discussed in this thread are being evaluated on results, moreso than raw talent.

Good point. There is certainly an argument for Orr as one of the 4 best offensive players of all-time, but I don't think it should be assumed as a given.

 

[pappyline]

In the regular season, sure. In the playoffs, Richard outscored Hull by similar margins to what Hull outscored Richard in the regular season. And both these men played a significant sample size of playoff games (especially Richard).

Actually Richard out-goal-scored a lot of great players in the NHL playoffs. Not sure why this only comes up when comparing him to Hull. Although both where great goal scorers their style of play was quite different. If you look at total points (including assists), Hull outscored Richard in the NHL playoffs.And thats without giving any credit whatsoever to Hull's WHA playoff record where he was first in goals and second in points.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Good point. There is certainly an argument for Orr as one of the 4 best offensive players of all-time, but I don't think it should be assumed as a given.

Really? The 2 Art Ross, the 100 assist season, his 1.39 PPG and more 100 point seasons than 99.99% of the players that have ever played isn't enough?

Or how about getting more assists than the next highest non-teammate even had points multiple years?
Only one other player that I know of did that

(One of those years btw was against a name already mentioned throughout this thread in Bobby Hull, just for perspective)

 

[canucksfan]

Since Jagr is there, I'm throwing Forsberg into the mix.

Forsberg never scored over 30 goals in a season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Really? The 2 Art Ross, the 100 assist season, his 1.39 PPG and more 100 point seasons than 99.99% of the players that have ever played isn't enough?

Or how about getting more assists than the next highest non-teammate even had points multiple years?
Only one other player that I know of did that

(One of those years btw was against a name already mentioned throughout this thread in Bobby Hull, just for perspective)

He "only" won 2 Art Rosses and we are comparing him to players who won between 3 and 5 themselves.

 

[Czech Your Math]

He "only" won 2 Art Rosses and we are comparing him to players who won between 3 and 5 themselves.

What would Bobby Orr have been like if he played center? I mean, I know he essentially controlled the puck, but what if he had less defensive responsibilities? Any approximations or comparisons?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What would Bobby Orr have been like if he played center? I mean, I know he essentially controlled the puck, but what if he had less defensive responsibilities? Any approximations or comparisons?

It's a very interesting question. I certainly understand the argument that Orr would have put up Gretzky/Lemieux numbers if he were freed from the responsibilities of being a defenseman, but I don't think we can ever prove that.

 

[KingGallagherXI]

If you look at total points (including assists), Hull outscored Richard in the NHL playoffs.

Not by any significant margin and they were both 1st in total points and 3rd in points per game (min. 40) in their respective long primes, but Richard scored at a crazy pace including a lot of clutch goals and a few cup winning goals.

In the regular season Richard has more top 5 seasons than Hull (9 vs 8). If you remove WWII then they are basically equal. The playoffs are the decisive factor for me.

 

[BamBamCam*]

2 Art Ross by a d-man, the ONLY 2 and the only other player to break 100 assists in a season not named Gretzky or Lemieux and the only one that didn't do it in the 80's pretty much says it all.

yeah

 

[tarheelhockey]

He "only" won 2 Art Rosses and we are comparing him to players who won between 3 and 5 themselves.

2 Art Rosses in 8 full seasons... one of thoses Rosses coming in his final full season. Suggests he could have done a hell of a lot more given a decent level of health, never mind switching positions.

IMO, Orr falls into the same category as Lemieux in that he's so transparently superior to his peers that we don't need to spend a whole lot of time with the "what if"s.

 

[Ice Crusher]

I think you forgot something about Forsberg. 4th in all-time assist per game behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. In the top 10, for points per game.

 

[Rhiessan71]

He "only" won 2 Art Rosses and we are comparing him to players who won between 3 and 5 themselves.

A D-man winning 2 vs forwards winning 3-5, I dunno man.

Not sure if the full weight is clear enough here. We're talking about a D-man that buried the likes of Hull, Mikita, Dionne, Lafleur, all 3 members of the French Connection...the list goes on.

I think you could make a better argument not to include Howe in the top 4 and that arguementwouldn't get ya very far either.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think you forgot something about Forsberg. 4th in all-time assist per game behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. In the top 10, for points per game.

Forsberg is no where near the 5th best offensive player of all time.

The assists per game stat is a joke for all the names you listed there except Gretzky because he was the only one who played many games past 30 when offense tends to decline for many players - like those who can't stay healthy enough to play for instance.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

I would say Bobby Hull. Maybe the best goal scorer ever. Jagr or Esposito could be argued for as well. Also Rocket Richard, even though he never won a scoring title but when he was playing I am pretty sure he was viewed as the best scorer ever, until Howe topped him but Howe is top 4.

Agreed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMO, Orr falls into the same category as Lemieux in that he's so transparently superior to his peers that we don't need to spend a whole lot of time with the "what if"s.

But he wasn't transparently superior offensively compared to peer forwards, right?

A D-man winning 2 vs forwards winning 3-5, I dunno man.

Not sure if the full weight is clear enough here. We're talking about a D-man that buried the likes of Hull, Mikita, Dionne, Lafleur, all 3 members of the French Connection...the list goes on.

I think you could make a better argument not to include Howe in the top 4 and that arguementwouldn't get ya very far either.

He didn't "bury" the likes of those players offensively. When he won his Art Rosses, they weren't by nearly the margins that Howe, Lemieux, and Gretzky had on their peer forwards.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think you forgot something about Forsberg. 4th in all-time assist per game behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. In the top 10, for points per game.

As BC pointed out, nobody forgot about Forsberg. He just doesn't have a case, as someone clearly inferior to (for example) Jaromir Jagr when it comes to offense-alone.

I think some people are missing the word "offensive" in the title. (Not that Forsberg would have much of a case as 5th best overall forward of all time, but it at least it wouldn't be quite as easily dismissed)
'

 

[Rhiessan71]

He didn't "bury" the likes of those players offensively. When he won his Art Rosses, they weren't by nearly the margins that Howe, Lemieux, and Gretzky had on their peer forwards.

That's the key word though isn't it, "forwards".
If a D-man has 6 more assists than Bobby Hull has points and 42 more points in general...is that not considered burying him?

The fact that only 9 other players, all forwards, in the entire history of the league have scored more points than Orr?

Seriously, I'm not sure how I can put any more weight to this...he was a defenseman still playing solid defense, competing with and beating out forwards offensively.

If a D-man beats out a forward by 5 points, wouldn't you consider that more impressive than a forward beating out another forward by 5 points?


Let me produce some numbers for ya...

Jagr first 662 games played, 862 points
Orr first 657 games played, 915 points

 

[canucks4ever]

That's the key word though isn't it, "forwards".
If a D-man has 6 more assists than Bobby Hull has points and 42 more points in general...is that not considered burying him?

The fact that only 9 other players, all forwards, in the entire history of the league have scored more points than Orr?

Seriously, I'm not sure how I can put any more weight to this...he was a defenseman still playing solid defense, competing with and beating out forwards offensively.

If a D-man beats out a forward by 5 points, wouldn't you consider that more impressive than a forward beating out another forward by 5 points?


Let me produce some numbers for ya...

Jagr first 662 games played, 862 points
Orr first 657 games played, 915 points

I agree with you, if bobby hull, jagr or beliveau were playing as defenseman, neither would win art rosses. Orr buries all 3 of them. Come to think of it, Howe wouldn't win art rosses as a defenseman either, he didn't have the speed and mobility to play the transition game to the same degree as Orr.

Another comparison: first 9 years between jagr and orr

Orr top 3 in scoring six times, and 2 top 30 scoring finishes.
Jagr top 6 in scoring five times, and 2 top 30 scoring finishes.

 

[jkrx]

I agree with you, if bobby hull, jagr or beliveau were playing as defenseman, neither would win art rosses. Orr buries all 3 of them. Come to think of it, Howe wouldn't win art rosses as a defenseman either, he didn't have the speed and mobility to play the transition game to the same degree as Orr.

Another comparison: first 9 years between jagr and orr

Orr top 3 in scoring six times, and 2 top 30 scoring finishes.
Jagr top 6 in scoring five times, and 2 top 30 scoring finishes.

Gordie Howe was fast not saying you are wrong about him not winning any art ross trophies but he was fast on the skates.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why are you guys comparing the beginning of Jagr's career with Orr's? Shouldn't you be comparing them when they were at their best?

Anyway, I think Orr is probably the 3rd or 4th most talented offensive player of all time (behind Wayne and Lemieux, possibly better than Howe despite Howe's statistical advantage). But there is an easy-to-make statistical case that he's not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Gordie Howe was fast not saying you are wrong about him not winning any art ross trophies but he was fast on the skates.

Yeah, he wasn't Orr-fast, but he was certainly faster compared to his peers than Gretzky, for example.

 

[canucks4ever]

Gordie Howe was fast not saying you are wrong about him not winning any art ross trophies but he was fast on the skates.

Im not saying hes slow, but i just cant see him being a quaterback on the transition to the same degree as Orr, thats all.

 

[pappyline]

That's the key word though isn't it, "forwards".
If a D-man has 6 more assists than Bobby Hull has points and 42 more points in general...is that not considered burying him?

Not really a good comparison. 69-70 was an off year for the 31 year old Hull. Missed 15 games and played hurt for many more. Also Boston stressed Offense much more than Chicago did. Orr had a great season but Hull also had an off year.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Not really a good comparison. 69-70 was an off year for the 31 year old Hull. Missed 15 games and played hurt for many more. Also Boston stressed Offense much more than Chicago did. Orr had a great season but Hull also had an off year.

Who's talking about 69/70, I'm talking about 70/71, Hull's 3rd highest NHL point total.
Hull had 96 points, Orr had 102 assists and 139 points...getting beat by a forward by that much would be considered getting buried, getting beat by that much by a d-man...that's a freakin avalanche!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Who's talking about 69/70, I'm talking about 70/71, Hull's 3rd highest NHL point total.
Hull had 96 points, Orr had 102 assists and 139 points...getting beat by a forward by that much would be considered getting buried, getting beat by that much by a d-man...that's a freakin avalanche!

By this criteria, Esposito "buried" Orr that season.