Who is the 5th best offensive player of all-time ??

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If Gordie Howe truly was 'offensive minded but not that good defensively' from 1951 and 1954, I might consider dropping him to 4th on the all time list. He seems to be a jean beliveau/bobby hull type player with freakish longevity. Offensively he's not on the same level as 1988-1996 Mario Lemieux.

He was clearly better offensively from 51-54 than Beliveau or Hull ever were. I never said he "wasn't that good defensively." He was a very good backchecker, but he was definitely an offense-first player who had a more defensively oriented center to cover for him. Perhaps "good but not great" defensively could best describe the Howe of this period. Later on, I think he did become great defensively, and his role on the Detroit PK increased by a lot.

He was always a terrifying physical beast, but early in his career, he used his physicality much more to create offense than he did in a defensive role.

 

[canucks4ever]

He was clearly better offensively from 51-54 than Beliveau or Hull ever were. I never said he "wasn't that good defensively." He was a very good backchecker, but he was definitely an offense-first player who had a more defensively oriented center to cover for him. Perhaps "good but not great" defensively could best describe the Howe of this period. Later on, I think he did become great defensively, and his role on the Detroit PK increased by a lot.

He was always a terrifying physical beast, but early in his career, he used his physicality much more to create offense than he did in a defensive role.

How much better offensively was he really than 1966 bobby hull, the margins by which the lead the league in scoring were pretty identical. Big difference is that the nhl had better depth in 66, even the 1967 stan mikita made a pretty big gap in offense between him and the rest of the league.

 

[JaymzB]

How much better offensively was he really than 1966 bobby hull, the margins by which the lead the league in scoring were pretty identical. Big difference is that the nhl had better depth in 66, even the 1967 stan mikita made a pretty big gap in offense between him and the rest of the league.

Hull only outscored Howe by 6 points in the 60's (in 38 less games).

 

[JaymzB]

He was clearly better offensively from 51-54 than Beliveau or Hull ever were. I never said he "wasn't that good defensively." He was a very good backchecker, but he was definitely an offense-first player who had a more defensively oriented center to cover for him. Perhaps "good but not great" defensively could best describe the Howe of this period. Later on, I think he did become great defensively, and his role on the Detroit PK increased by a lot.

He was always a terrifying physical beast, but early in his career, he used his physicality much more to create offense than he did in a defensive role.

I wonder out of Howe, Hull and Beliveau, who was the better defensive player? Obviously, Beliveau being a centre changes things/assignments, but I think it would be an interesting discussion.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I wonder out of Howe, Hull and Beliveau, who was the better defensive player. Obviously, Beliveau being a centre changes things/assignments, but I think it would be an interesting discussion.

IMO, Bobby Hull was clearly the worst of the 3 defensively - I've read from multiple sources that he basically played all-out offense during his offensive peak. Later on, when asked to play more defensively, he did so (good for him), but I don't think his efforts were anything better than "good but not great," much like Production Line era Howe.

I'm pretty sure Howe was better vs other wingers than Beliveau was vs other centers, but in an absolute sense? I'm not sure.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I wonder out of Howe, Hull and Beliveau, who was the better defensive player? Obviously, Beliveau being a centre changes things/assignments, but I think it would be an interesting discussion.

Being a center means a lot more responsibility defensively. For a winger to be adequate defensively he needs to get back hard and then not fall asleep in the zone. Not so for the center.

 

[pappyline]

IMO, Bobby Hull was clearly the worst of the 3 defensively - I've read from multiple sources that he basically played all-out offense during his offensive peak. Later on, when asked to play more defensively, he did so (good for him), but I don't think his efforts were anything better than "good but not great," much like Production Line era Howe.

I'm pretty sure Howe was better vs other wingers than Beliveau was vs other centers, but in an absolute sense? I'm not sure.

Actually, Hull was pretty good defensively and even during his offensive peak was often assigned to check Howe.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Actually, Hull was pretty good defensively and even during his offensive peak was often assigned to check Howe.

Probably the only forward in the league that could match Gordie's strength.

 

[Oilmageddon*]

Does anyone seriously think that Phil would not have averaged at least 10-15 points a season less if he wasn't with the Bruins and Bobby Orr?

Look Phil probably would have been a very good offensive player if he had stayed on the Blacks Hawks but getting traded to the Bruins helped his career stat wise by quite a bit IMO. Big Phil before and after the Bruins raises huge questions about his being on any top 10 list and other players are more worthy and have a more credible body or work and arguments behind them IMO.

Esposito totals with Orr gp 613 g453 a533 pts 986 ppg 1.60

Without orr gp 669 g264 a340 pts 604 ppg 0.90


Anybody who would put Esposito even ahead of Lafleur did not watch the 70s

 

[Oilmageddon*]

]I think offensively I would take Lafleur ahead of pretty much anybody not named Lemieux , Gretzky or Howe.[/B]Followed closely by Hull , Jagr and Orr.

this but ORR ahead of him prople do not realize Lafleur made a very average centerman Pete Mahovolich into a 119 point player one season and Shutt a 60 goal scorer . Lafleur numbers would of been stagering if he had a elite playmaking center. He at the time was also the fastest player to a 1000 points. And for a winger says alot

 

[BraveCanadian]

Esposito totals with Orr gp 613 g453 a533 pts 986 ppg 1.60

Without orr gp 669 g264 a340 pts 604 ppg 0.90


Anybody who would put Esposito even ahead of Lafleur did not watch the 70s

Not picking sides in the Esposito/Lafleur question but this is a horrible backup to your argument.

What you just said is basically: "players produce more in their prime on good teams than they do when they are not in their prime on mediocre teams."

 

[Left Circle OneTimer]

How much better offensively was he really than 1966 bobby hull, the margins by which the lead the league in scoring were pretty identical. Big difference is that the nhl had better depth in 66, even the 1967 stan mikita made a pretty big gap in offense between him and the rest of the league.

Not sure if serious... Howe's 52-53 season was the second lowest scoring year in NHL history since 1935-36 up to this point. How did they lead by identical margins? Howe had 95, second had 71 and 3rd had 61, the 10th leading scorer had 44 points! Hull had 97, and four guys had atleast 75 and it was also a higher scoring year
1952-53 Had 4.79 goals per game, 65-66 had 6.08 goals per game. Howe had 2 less points than Hull had in a much higher scoring era. Outside of Gretzky, Howe is the only other player the dominate the second leading scorer by over a 30% margin. He did that twice. Not even Lemieux has done that once even if you take way Gretzky's 2nd place scoring in his best years

 

[Oilmageddon*]

Not picking sides in the Esposito/Lafleur question but this is a horrible backup to your argument.

What you just said is basically: "players produce more in their prime on good teams than they do when they are not in their prime on mediocre teams."

No I had the pleasure of watching Both Lafleur and Esposito in their primes and trust me Orr made Esposito a 100 point player his rushes and shots from the point were Esposito's to clean up Imo he was a solid ppg player without. Bossy is another Player who was more offensivsly skilled than Esposito. Lafleur was a playmaking machine with average linemates he won Art ross trophy's with Shutt and Pete Mahovilich look at their totals without Lafleur.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

No I had the pleasure of watching Both Lafleur and Esposito in their primes and trust me Orr made Esposito a 100 point player his rushes and shots from the point were Esposito's to clean up Imo he was a solid ppg player without. Bossy is another Player who was more offensivsly skilled than Esposito. Lafleur was a playmaking machine with average linemates he won Art ross trophy's with Shutt and Pete Mahovilich look at their totals without Lafleur.

Steve Shutt is in the Hall of Fame.

Wayne Cashman & Ken Hodge are not.

You make it sound like Orr & Esposito played together all the time.

The playmaking machine Lafleur led the league in assists once, Espo did it 3 times.

I'm not sure how much of Esposito you saw, but you clearly didn't see the same player that I did.

 

[Oilmageddon*]

Steve Shutt is in the Hall of Fame.

Wayne Cashman & Ken Hodge are not.

You make it sound like Orr & Esposito played together all the time.

The playmaking machine Lafleur led the league in assists once, Espo did it 3 times.

I'm not sure how much of Esposito you saw, but you clearly didn't see the same player that I did.

He just did not play with Cashman and Hodge 70/71 season he played Alot with Bucyk who btw is in the HOF and do you seriously think Shutt made the Hall without Lafleur ? And I would love to see how many of Esposito points came with Orr on the score sheet.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Not picking sides in the Esposito/Lafleur question but this is a horrible backup to your argument.

What you just said is basically: "players produce more in their prime on good teams than they do when they are not in their prime on mediocre teams."

Exactly and I think he misunderstood my point that if Esposito never plays with Orr that his peak totals would have been considerably lower as well.

We already know that Marty St. Louis career path is the exception not the rule.

As for this thread to focus simply on point totals gets us away from the fact that Jagr, or insert your favorite other guy not listed in the top 4, creates a ton more offense than Phil ever did.

 

[seventieslord]

He just did not play with Cashman and Hodge 70/71 season he played Alot with Bucyk who btw is in the HOF and do you seriously think Shutt made the Hall without Lafleur ? And I would love to see how many of Esposito points came with Orr on the score sheet.

Espo played with Cash and Hodge at even strength. Bucyk played with Pie McKenzie and Stanfield. Espo and Bucyk only played together on the PP, where Bucyk too Cash's LW spot and played the half boards.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

I have Lafleur and Jagr next

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good Question.

I wonder out of Howe, Hull and Beliveau, who was the better defensive player? Obviously, Beliveau being a centre changes things/assignments, but I think it would be an interesting discussion.

Good question especially since Hull was a LW, Beliveau a C and Howe a RW, different responsibilities and different opponents when it comes to match-ups. So even if there was significant overlap in their careers there is very little common ground defensively.

The answer involves linemates/teammates and to a degree coaching.

Bobby Hull had the disadvantage of playing on a team with a high level of turnover of teammates and second level coaching - Pilous and Reay, a rung below Blake and Imlach. Defensively his best linemate was Chico Maki but a relatively short term combination. As a result Hull never developed the familiarity and synergy necessary to play good team defense. Add the coaching gap - Blake and Imlach tended to win line match-ups against Chicago, Detroit was a wash, Boston, NY did not matter and Hull did not have the full support that defensive play requires.

Gordie Howe and Alex Delvecchio LW/C. Played together for twenty seasons. Knew each other and the league. Together they were more effective then the sum of their individual skills. True offensively and defensively. Regardless if Delvecchio played LW or C or who the third player was they made the necessary offensive and defensive adjustments.

Jean Beliveau. Real strength was his flexibility, adapting to the various offensive / defensive systems and schemes put together by Toe Blake and the variety of wingers that he had.Played with veterans, rookies and made it work. Playing with H. Richard and Ralph Backstrom centering the other two lines the team varied the looks, switching from LHS to RHS centers, etc. Biggest asset was the ability to play against the Howe/Delvecchio combo, especially with Gilles Tremblay on LW matching against Gordie Howe. Made the difference in the 1966 SC finals.

 

[Corto]

Jagr

Then Bobby Hull.