Who is the 5th best offensive player of all-time ??

[JaymzB]

You do realize that Hull was 36 and had a line 0f 8-7-2-9 and 2 years later he had a line of 7-5-3-8 in the Canada cup as a 38 year old right?

Your comparison of Espositio in 72 at age 30 is a little bit of cherry picking IMO. The same Canada cup listed above Espo had a line of 7-4-3-7 and was 4 years younger than Hull.

Overall if I was going to make a list of the top 10 offensive players of all time Espo wouldn't be on it as his stats are more of an indication of circumstance rather than actual skill. Heck I have Dionne higher on my list.

Also in that Canada Cup the Russians thought Bob Gainey was the MAN, pretty sure that was shared by many in the NHL at the time.

Actually, I believe Tikhanov said that famous quote about Gainey around the 79 Playoffs.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Actually, I believe Tikhanov said that famous quote about Gainey around the 79 Playoffs.

That could be true as I was going off of memory but the overall idea still applies as I doubt Gainey was ever considered a top 10 player in the NHL in any year never mind being the best player in the world.

No doubt Gainey was excellent at what he did but that quote and playing with those strong Hab teams that won cups make him one of the most over rated guys in history when I doubt he was actually much better than Craig Ramsay.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I agree with all this although I think Esposito does have some merit for top 10 consideration.

My top 20

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Jagr
6. Beliveau
7. Hull
8. Lafleur
9. Richard
10. Esposito
11. Bossy
12. Coffey
13. Stastny
14. Sakic
15. Yzerman
16. Dionne
17. Lafontaine
18. Ovechkin
19. Crosby
20. Potvin

HM: Selanne, Bure, Malkin, Trottier, Mogilny, Fedorov, Leetch, Bourque, Busyk, Clarke, Forsberg, Lindros, Messier, Robitaille, Francis, Oates.....

Quite a few question marks with this list, but no Mikita or Morenz are the two biggest

 

[Rhiessan71]

That could be true as I was going off of memory but the overall idea still applies as I doubt Gainey was ever considered a top 10 player in the NHL in any year never mind being the best player in the world.

No doubt Gainey was excellent at what he did but that quote and playing with those strong Hab teams that won cups make him one of the most over rated guys in history when I doubt he was actually much better than Craig Ramsay.

A little overrated in comparison to Ramsay sure, most can live with that statement but saying one of the most overrated in history is going too far man.

Gainey was a lot bigger and faster than Ramsay and stood out more because of it.

 

[livewell68]

Quite a few question marks with this list, but no Mikita or Morenz are the two biggest

My list includes players from the "modern era: of hockey and Mikita was more known for his defense and two-way play than for his superior offense.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My list includes players from the "modern era: of hockey and Mikita was more known for his defense and two-way play than for his superior offense.

Mikita won 4 Art Rosses in 5 years and was 2nd to teammate Bobby Hull in the other year.

 

[Hardyvan123]

A little overrated in comparison to Ramsay sure, most can live with that statement but saying one of the most overrated in history is going too far man.

Gainey was a lot bigger and faster than Ramsay and stood out more because of it.

It's being called the best player thing in the world although to be fair not many people repeat that line and Ramsay's offensive difference more than offset the advantage Gainey has on defense but once again their roles on their respective teams were quite different.

At the end of the day even if Gainey were to be given a more offensive role he just didn't have the skill set to be a 30 goal scorer except maybe once or twice and that's in a pretty weak era too. Just to note that his best season ever adjusted was 17 goals which he did twice.

 

[livewell68]

Mikita won 4 Art Rosses in 5 years and was 2nd to teammate Bobby Hull in the other year.

You know what, I actually knew Mikita had won 4 Art Ross trophies and then completely forgot about that.

I should have Mikita in the top 15 then.

Morenz however doesn't deserve to be on the list, he wasn't even a PPG player when his career was done.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Morenz however doesn't deserve to be on the list, he wasn't even a PPG player when his career was done.

Only because of the era.

During his peak (1924-1932), Morenz was:

• 1st in points with 325. 2nd place Nels Stewart had 253.
• Tied with Charlie Conacher for 1st in PPG with 1.01; however Conacher only played after the forward pass was allowed. The next highest PPG totals for players who played significant games both before and after the forward pass was allowed were Nels Stewart and Bill Cook at 0.88 PPG.
• 1st in goals with 218. 2nd place Nels Stewart had 185.
• 1st in GPG among players who played on both sides of the forward pass with 0.68. 2nd place Nels Stewart had 0.64. (Charlie Conacher had 0.71 but all of it was in the higher scoring years after the forward pass).
• 2nd in assists with 107. 1st place Frank Boucher had 129; 3rd place was a tie for 98.
• 7th in APG, but 3rd among players who played significant games before the forward pass.

Source

So you see that Morenz was the best overall offensive player of his era by a wide margin. He was the best goal scorer by a small margin over Nels Stewart, a guy who is a top 100 player by virtue of scoring goals and could do little else. He wasn't as good a playmaker as Frank Boucher, but was arguably the best of the rest.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think offensively I would take Lafleur ahead of pretty much anybody not named Lemieux , Gretzky or Howe.Followed closely by Hull , Jagr and Orr.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I never said Espo wasn't an excellent player or that he was one dimensional but he was a garbage man though. He was just as strong in the corners as he was in the slot and got quite a few assists from that hard work. All I'm saying is that he doesn't clear 60 goals let alone 70 without Orr, no doubt in my mind on that.

Even in '72, most of that Russian team was skating circles around Phil and he wasn't very effective without help from his teammates to get the puck through the neutral zone and get it deep for him.

Like c'mon man, he goes from a 61 goal scorer and 127 point player to a 35-40 goal scorer and an 80 point scorer as soon as he is without Orr. The same as what he was before Orr. Not coincidence.
He was an excellent player on his own but Orr made him great.

Either way, it's not that I wouldn't hold Phil in with the Yzerman's and Sakic's, I just wouldn't hold him in with the Hull's and Jagr's.

Well, I guess trying to dispell the garage man brand didn't work.

As for the Summit Series (the biggest event in hockey ever) say what you will, Espo was the best player in that tournament.

And if you can say Orr made Espo great, I guess we could say Coffey made Gretzky the greatest? After Coffey leaves Gretz drops 44 points. After seasons of 212, 196, 205, 208 and 183 points, Gretzky never reaches 170 again. And Gretzky was only 27 then, Espo was 33 when Orr played his last game in Boston.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You do realize that Hull was 36 and had a line 0f 8-7-2-9 and 2 years later he had a line of 7-5-3-8 in the Canada cup as a 38 year old right?

Your comparison of Espositio in 72 at age 30 is a little bit of cherry picking IMO. The same Canada cup listed above Espo had a line of 7-4-3-7 and was 4 years younger than Hull.

Overall if I was going to make a list of the top 10 offensive players of all time Espo wouldn't be on it as his stats are more of an indication of circumstance rather than actual skill. Heck I have Dionne higher on my list.

Also in that Canada Cup the Russians thought Bob Gainey was the MAN, pretty sure that was shared by many in the NHL at the time.

The guy shatters all the NHL scoring records and it wasn't skill, it was circumstance?

To quote Rhiessan71: "Like, c'mon man!"

 

[Hardyvan123]

The guy shatters all the NHL scoring records and it wasn't skill, it was circumstance?

To quote Rhiessan71: "Like, c'mon man!"

Does anyone seriously think that Phil would not have averaged at least 10-15 points a season less if he wasn't with the Bruins and Bobby Orr?

Look Phil probably would have been a very good offensive player if he had stayed on the Blacks Hawks but getting traded to the Bruins helped his career stat wise by quite a bit IMO. Big Phil before and after the Bruins raises huge questions about his being on any top 10 list and other players are more worthy and have a more credible body or work and arguments behind them IMO.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bob Gainey

For all the detractors here is an account of Bob Gainey's first shift against Bobby Orr.

http://forums.habsworld.net/index.php?showtopic=9765

Craig Ramsey could never skate or check like Gainey while benefitting from playing on a smaller rink in Buffalo.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Does anyone seriously think that Phil would not have averaged at least 10-15 points a season less if he wasn't with the Bruins and Bobby Orr?

Look Phil probably would have been a very good offensive player if he had stayed on the Blacks Hawks but getting traded to the Bruins helped his career stat wise by quite a bit IMO. Big Phil before and after the Bruins raises huge questions about his being on any top 10 list and other players are more worthy and have a more credible body or work and arguments behind them IMO.

Of Espo's 5 scoring titles, only one was by less than 15 points. That was by 13 points over Orr.

I agree that Espo probably would have scored less without Orr. As Gretzky would have (and did) score less without Coffey (and the Edmonton style of play). As Coffey would have scored less without Gretzky and Mario and Lindros and Yzerman....As would Bossy and Trottier without each other & Potvin. As would Beliveau without, well, all the HOF Canadiens.

And guess what? Orr would have scored less without Espo.

 

[livewell68]

Of Espo's 5 scoring titles, only one was by less than 15 points. That was by 13 points over Orr.

I agree that Espo probably would have scored less without Orr. As Gretzky would have (and did) score less without Coffey (and the Edmonton style of play). As Coffey would have scored less without Gretzky and Mario and Lindros and Yzerman....As would Bossy and Trottier without each other & Potvin. As would Beliveau without, well, all the HOF Canadiens.

And guess what? Orr would have scored less without Espo.

Of all these players, Jagr won 4 of his 5 Art Ross trophies without Lemieux.

 

[tazzy19]

Well, I guess trying to dispell the garage man brand didn't work.

As for the Summit Series (the biggest event in hockey ever) say what you will, Espo was the best player in that tournament.

And if you can say Orr made Espo great, I guess we could say Coffey made Gretzky the greatest? After Coffey leaves Gretz drops 44 points. After seasons of 212, 196, 205, 208 and 183 points, Gretzky never reaches 170 again. And Gretzky was only 27 then, Espo was 33 when Orr played his last game in Boston.

You forgot his 215 point season, and neglected to mention Gretzky was on pace for almost 190 points before his injury the year after Coffey left, but I still agree with you to some degree. People say that Gretzky never again reached 200 points because he went to LA. But I believe had Coffey been in LA and not Pitsburgh, it would have been Gretzky with another 190+ point season, not Lemieux in 1988-89.

 

[jkrx]

You know what, I actually knew Mikita had won 4 Art Ross trophies and then completely forgot about that.

I should have Mikita in the top 15 then.

Morenz however doesn't deserve to be on the list, he wasn't even a PPG player when his career was done.

I honestly dont think you know anything at all when it comes to the history of hockey. Stop looking at raw stats and start to read and absorb all the information you can get about great player like, for example, Howie Morenz. A guy who won 3 Hart Trophies and had the best point total by a 56 point margin during the seasons he played but doesnt deserve to be on your list.

 

[Left Circle OneTimer]

Can someone tell me why people underrate Howe so much? a six league team is basically like playing in the playoffs where everyone will know your play after the few games and can lock you down as opposed to padding totals against garbage teams. % wise hes dominated the second leading guy more than Lemieux has and by bigger margins, scoring was just an all time low when he played and the game was extremely physical yet he just dominated. I haven't seen a credible site/ magazine ect for hockey ever rank lemieux higher than howe yet everyone here seems to?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Can someone tell me why people underrate Howe so much? a six league team is basically like playing in the playoffs where everyone will know your play after the few games and can lock you down as opposed to padding totals against garbage teams. % wise hes dominated the second leading guy more than Lemieux has and by bigger margins, scoring was just an all time low when he played and the game was extremely physical yet he just dominated. I haven't seen a credible site/ magazine ect for hockey ever rank lemieux higher than howe yet everyone here seems to?

Who is "everyone?" Gordie Howe ranked 3rd on both the 2008 and 2009 versions of the History board's Top 100 players of all-time list, and Mario Lemieux ranked 4th on both.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Can someone tell me why people underrate Howe so much? a six league team is basically like playing in the playoffs where everyone will know your play after the few games and can lock you down as opposed to padding totals against garbage teams. % wise hes dominated the second leading guy more than Lemieux has and by bigger margins, scoring was just an all time low when he played and the game was extremely physical yet he just dominated. I haven't seen a credible site/ magazine ect for hockey ever rank lemieux higher than howe yet everyone here seems to?

On this board Howe does very well - 3rd all-time two votes in a row. I think he is 2nd best but that beats the hell out of many who consider Howe an afterthought when it comes to best of all time.

 

[VMBM]

You do realize that Hull was 36 and had a line 0f 8-7-2-9 and 2 years later he had a line of 7-5-3-8 in the Canada cup as a 38 year old right?

Your comparison of Espositio in 72 at age 30 is a little bit of cherry picking IMO. The same Canada cup listed above Espo had a line of 7-4-3-7 and was 4 years younger than Hull.

Overall if I was going to make a list of the top 10 offensive players of all time Espo wouldn't be on it as his stats are more of an indication of circumstance rather than actual skill. Heck I have Dionne higher on my list.

Also in that Canada Cup the Russians thought Bob Gainey was the MAN, pretty sure that was shared by many in the NHL at the time.

I was answering a post, and the point was that IMO Esposito's performance in 1972 deserves a little more credit than what was shown there.

Bobby Hull aged very well (how much worse was he in 1974 than he would have been in 1972?), he prepared himself a lot better than anyone in 1972, as did the whole team, and it's no guarantee that he would have outperformed Espo in 1972.

MAYBE if Orr and Hull had played in 1972, then MAYBE Espo wouldn't have had to outdo himself and MAYBE would have been in their shadow. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE. I can certainly accept that not many people would have heard of Paul Henderson, if Orr and Hull indeed had played (but even that, who knows?).

I do think that people sometimes overrate single great performances (tournament/series/game): look at Alexander Yakushev in 1972; he was a very good player, was one of the top Russians of his era, but not THE best. It might very well be that Esposito just happened to have a very good series, where he looked better than he was, and it doesn't necessarily prove his greatness. Personally, I wouldn't sure as hell choose Espo as #5. But as said, the point was really that you shouldn't knock his performance with things like "if Orr and/or Hull had played".

'The Russians' in Gainey's case was either Tikhonov or Tarasov, depending on a source. I once started a thread on the subject and I don't think it was ever resolved whether it was just a case of something getting lost in translation or whether there was a genuine quote along the lines of "Bob Gainey is the best player in the world". Anyway, I think it's fair to say that Esposito looms a lot larger in the minds of Soviet ex-players than Bob Gainey, whaddyathink?

Yes, Marcel Dionne was a great performer during the regular season... and unfortunately for him, not much else.

 

[Left Circle OneTimer]

On this board Howe does very well - 3rd all-time two votes in a row. I think he is 2nd best but that beats the hell out of many who consider Howe an afterthought when it comes to best of all time.

I think hes the second best also. I mean what exactly puts Bobby Orr over him? Yes he put up ridiculous numbers as a defenseman but the idea of him being better than Gretzky is never thought up so why Howe? Howe is the only other person outside of Gretzky to dominate the scoring competition by ridiculous margins and played a long career unlike Orr and didn't slow down. he also gets no credit for being 10x a better defender than the other top forwards of all time and brought the physical game while still being a skilled scorer and being an enforcer at the same time. The guy did everything and longer

And by everyone i mean most people outside the History forums.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think hes the second best also. I mean what exactly puts Bobby Orr over him? Yes he put up ridiculous numbers as a defenseman but the idea of him being better than Gretzky is never thought up so why Howe? Howe is the only other person outside of Gretzky to dominate the scoring competition by ridiculous margins and played a long career unlike Orr and didn't slow down. he also gets no credit for being 10x a better defender than the other top forwards of all time and brought the physical game while still being a skilled scorer and being an enforcer at the same time. The guy did everything and longer

And by everyone i mean most people outside the History forums.

I don't know who you are talking to. On the HOH board, Gretzky over Orr is always a close vote.

The case for Orr over Howe is that Orr was simply even more dominant and more game changing at his peak. I go back and forth between Orr and Howe for my #2 and #3 players of all time.

I think you're giving Howe a bit too much credit for his defense. He was always a strong backchecker, but when he was winning Art Rosses by huge margins in the early 50s, he and Ted Lindsay were allowed to take more offensive chances than players on most teams - they played an extremely aggressive dump and chance game and counted on the center (Sid Abel or Alex Delvecchio) to cover for them defensively.

Even at his offensive peak, Howe was definitely more responsible defensively than Gretzky or Lemieux, but I don't think he became "10 times" better than them until after his offense had cooled off just a tad to where other players could beat him out for Art Rosses.

 

[canucks4ever]

If Gordie Howe truly was 'offensive minded but not that good defensively' from 1951 and 1954, I might consider dropping him to 4th on the all time list. He seems to be a jean beliveau/bobby hull type player with freakish longevity. Offensively he's not on the same level as 1988-1996 Mario Lemieux.