Who had a better 2019/20 Season - Ovechkin or Bergeron?

[Varan]

It isn't exactly a poor premise... depends on the fan's philosophy. Well rounded game or pure offensive forward.... a very established debate we will see for many years.

You just said it. OP made it infinitely clear with all of those charts and diagrams, where he/she lies in this debate. To the OP, it isn't a "debate" at all.

 

[Trap Jesus]

You just said it. OP made it infinitely clear with all of those charts and diagrams, where he/she lies in this debate. To the OP, it isn't a "debate" at all.

I highlighted Ovechkins shot/chance generation too, this wasn't presented one-sided, it's adding context. The poll itself is a an excercise in one-dimensional but dominant offense vs. well rounded play and dominant defense. I love how providing additional context is vilified.

Tell me, what's the "correct" way to construct the OP.

 

[Varan]

I highlighted Ovechkins shot/chance generation too, this wasn't presented one-sided, it's adding context. The poll itself is a an excercise in one-dimensional but dominant offense vs. well rounded play and dominant defense. I love how providing additional context is vilified.

Tell me, what's the "correct" way to construct the OP.

What about goal/point generation when he's on the ice? Shots/chance generation isn't much to go off of considering when he is known as arguably the best goal-scorer of all time. What are the chances his team scores when he's on the ice compared to Bergeron?

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

You just said it. OP made it infinitely clear with all of those charts and diagrams, where he/she lies in this debate. To the OP, it isn't a "debate" at all.

Why can't they have an opinion? You can take offense to that data and vote on Ovechkin's offense if you wish.... hence the poll.

 

[Varan]

Why can't they have an opinion? You can take offense to that data and vote on Ovechkin's offense if you wish.... hence the poll.

They can, instead of making it a 1-sided poll.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

What about goal/point generation when he's on the ice? Shots/chance generation isn't much to go off of considering when he is known as arguably the best goal-scorer of all time. What are the chances his team scores when he's on the ice compared to Bergeron?

What are the stats around the opposition scoring when they're on the ice?

Both players deserve their votes. Can't really go wrong. I think Bergeron does a lot more on the ice due to his all around perfection.... but Ovechkin would have scored 50 again. No wrong answer. Depends on what fans prefer.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

They can, instead of making it a 1-sided poll.

The poll results don't seem to share your concern!

 

[Trap Jesus]

What about goal/point generation when he's on the ice? Shots/chance generation isn't much to go off of considering when he is known as arguably the best goal-scorer of all time. What are the chances his team scores when he's on the ice compared to Bergeron?

Oh yeah, let's get into that so you can accuse me of being even more biased.

Ignoring defense which doesn't matter (Bergeron vs. Ovechkin):

CF/60: 63.06 vs. 61.22
FF/60: 47.07 vs. 44.2
SF/60: 35.24 vs. 31.9
GF/60: 3.75 vs. 2.95
xGF/60: 2.51 vs. 2.52

You got me, I was concealing the xGF/60 number.

The relative numbers are also way more pronounced than the raw rates by the way.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Why can't they have an opinion? You can take offense to that data and vote on Ovechkin's offense if you wish.... hence the poll.

He doesn't realize that he's arguing for the same thing as what he's accusing me of doing. I provided individualized numbers, taking linemates out of it for defense and shot generation.

I honestly think he'd accuse me of being biased unless I presented it as: Ovechkin - 48 goals, Bergeron - 31 goals

 

[ScaredStreit]

Bergeron's the better player. Ovechkin has a better shot (obviously) but Bergeron's the total package. He's going to be one of those players 20 years from now newer fans will scratch their heads and claim he's overrated by the older generation and the response will be "you had to have seen him play".

 

[Varan]

The poll results don't seem to share your concern!

The poll results are hilarious

 

[Varan]

What are the stats around the opposition scoring when they're on the ice?

Both players deserve their votes. Can't really go wrong. I think Bergeron does a lot more on the ice due to his all around perfection.... but Ovechkin would have scored 50 again. No wrong answer. Depends on what fans prefer.

+/- isn't the greatest stat in the world. Many have argued against using it. But it should be ip to OP to determine these fair stats on both offense and defense before making a poll knowing full and well he/she can influence the results

There's nothing wrong with choosing one or the other. Even if OP likes Bergeron to OV, that's fine, but keep it fair.

 

[Trap Jesus]

+/- isn't the greatest stat in the world. Many have argued against using it. But it should be ip to OP to determine these fair stats on both offense and defense before making a poll knowing full and well he/she can influence the results

There's nothing wrong with choosing one or the other. Even if OP likes Bergeron to OV, that's fine, but keep it fair.

And I did that. What you're really saying is that it should be up to you to determine fair stats.

If I included the on-ice rates at your request it would have "looked" even more biased. There is literally zero winning with this unless I include nothing but goals.

You're getting completely exposed in this argument. I've dug up the stats that you requested and it just makes it look more in Bergeron's favor.

There is literally nothing biased about the OP. I included base stats and more in depth stats that play to both of their strengths. It's up to everyone else to vote based on what they value more.

 

[Varan]

Oh yeah, let's get into that so you can accuse me of being even more biased.

Ignoring defense which doesn't matter (Bergeron vs. Ovechkin):

CF/60: 63.06 vs. 61.22
FF/60: 47.07 vs. 44.2
SF/60: 35.24 vs. 31.9
GF/60: 3.75 vs. 2.95
xGF/60: 2.51 vs. 2.52

You got me, I was concealing the xGF/60 number.

The relative numbers are also way more pronounced than the raw rates by the way.

You're bringing up 2 things now. Your title states who had the better season, but these stats are displaying who is the better player.

Everyone knows that Bergeron is the better player overall, but season is a completely different ball park. Compare line-mates: Kuznetzov (who is having a down season again) and Wilson to Pasta and Marchand. Are you serious?

Bergeron has zero offensive workload to carry on his line. So generally if you play with great players, you look better. It is very simple.

Ovechkin won the Rocket once again. Out pointed Bergeron (once again). Did more with lesser line-mates. Plays in the tougher division. It is clear who had the better season.

 

[Varan]

And I did that. What you're really saying is that it should be up to you to determine fair stats.

If I included the on-ice rates at your request it would have "looked" even more biased. There is literally zero winning with this unless I include nothing but goals.

You're getting completely exposed in this argument. I've dug up the stats that you requested and it just makes it look more in Bergeron's favor.

There is literally nothing biased about the OP. I included base stats and more in depth stats that play to both of their strengths. It's up to everyone else to vote based on what they value more.

How am I getting exposed when your stats don't even follow your initial poll question? Who is the better player: McDavid or Drai? Who had the better season?

 

[Trap Jesus]

You're bringing up 2 things now. Your title states who had the better season, but these stats are displaying who is the better player.

Everyone knows that Bergeron is the better player overall, but season is a completely different ball park. Compare line-mates: Kuznetzov (who is having a down season again) and Wilson to Pasta and Marchand. Are you serious?

Bergeron has zero offensive workload to carry on his line. So generally if you play with great players, you look better. It is very simple.

Ovechkin won the Rocket once again. Out pointed Bergeron (once again). Did more with lesser line-mates. Plays in the tougher division. It is clear who had the better season.

What are you even talking about? Better player in a season is the same thing as having a better season. Everything provided is from this season.

 

[Varan]

What are you even talking about? Better player in a season is the same thing as having a better season. Everything provided is from this season.

No it's not. This is false. See McDavid and Drai this past year.

See when Price won everything in 2015. Ovechkin and Crosby were still considered the 2 best players in the league.

See when Kucherov just last season had a season for the ages. Many still believed McDavid to be the best player in the league, despite the 12-point gap and obviously the team record.

See it in the NBA. LeBron James is regarded as the best player of his era and arguably the GOAT. Just because Harden or KD or Curry (his first MVP) won the MVP, doesn't mean that they were better than LeBron. That is simply not the case. They had better seasons than LBJ (team-wise and stats-wise), but were not regarded the better player

 

[K Fleur]

A few people in here clearly don’t understand the largest aspect too why Boston’s 1st line is so great.

 

[Varan]

A few people in here clearly don’t understand the largest aspect too why Boston’s 1st line is so great.

You mean that the players cover up each other's weaknesses? Sure. Those 3 are a perfect fit.

Is it fair for me to say that you don't understand why the Caps have been either the top seed or a high seed since 2007? It cuts both ways.

 

[Trap Jesus]

No it's not. This is false. See McDavid and Drai this past year.

See when Price won everything in 2015. Ovechkin and Crosby were still considered the 2 best players in the league.

See when Kucherov just last season had a season for the ages. Many still believed McDavid to be the best player in the league, despite the 12-point gap and obviously the team record.

See it in the NBA. LeBron James is regarded as the best player of his era and arguably the GOAT. Just because Harden or KD or Curry (his first MVP) won the MVP, doesn't mean that they were better than LeBron. That is simply not the case. They had better seasons than LBJ (team-wise and stats-wise), but were not regarded the better player

I don't know what your point is, theres no reputation for this poll, it's just looking at their play this season in a vacuum from other years.

 

[Varan]

I don't know what your point is, theres no reputation for this poll, it's just looking at their play this season in a vacuum from other years.

My point is:

Better season ≠ Better player

The advanced stats (and the eye test) show that Bergeron is a better overall player than #8. Ovechkin had the better season though.

I brought up those examples to explain the validity in "Better season ≠ Better player"

 

[K Fleur]

You mean that the players cover up each other's weaknesses? Sure. Those 3 are a perfect fit.

Kinda, but no.

Is it fair for me to say that you don't understand why the Caps have been either the top seed or a high seed since 2007? It cuts both ways.

Huh?

 

[Trap Jesus]

My point is:

Better season ≠ Better player

The advanced stats (and the eye test) show that Bergeron is a better overall player than #8. Ovechkin had the better season though.

I brought up those examples to explain the validity in "Better season ≠ Better player"

You're going completely off the rails here. Why does that matter at all, just compare their play this season lol.

 

[Varan]

You're going completely off the rails here. Why does that matter at all, just compare their play this season lol.

LMAO BRO

Season doesn’t mean who is the better player. Ovechkin played better this season when taking into account team-mates, competition, production, etc. Bergeron is a better player overall

How hard is that to understand

 

[Trap Jesus]

LMAO BRO

Season doesn’t mean who is the better player. Ovechkin played better this season when taking into account team-mates, competition, production, etc. Bergeron is a better player overall

How hard is that to understand

That's not the part I don't understand. I understand you wanting I take a player based on what they did this season, that's literally what the poll is. I don't understand what all this "better player" nonsense you're bringing up is.