Post-Game Talk: Who else had to redo their narratives tonight?

[mkatcherin00]

Wasn't that the goal where idiot Foegele shot right into a screen instead of making the dump behind goal line play Drai wanted? All of the turnover tonight on the Drai line were when his team mates refused to make the simple cycle play or get pucks deep. Foegele in this game, in the 3rd period actually passed the puck behind into his own zone, no look, nobody was there. Foegele actually did that. On a deeper club Foegele would've been benched, again.

I did not watch the game so not sure lol.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yup, I know it wasn't a pass. But it resulted from a strong, aggressive forecheck by them. McLeod and Foegele are third line players but short-term can help Draisailt with speed, forecheck and willingness to defer to skill. Help backoff defences to give Draisaitl more space to operate and do the board work to feed him kill zone shots. Help also speed up the tempo for Draisaitl to play at.

Moving McLeod to wing most definitely helped his game too. Less responsibility as a winger than centre and can defer to Draisaitl while playing a more simple up and down game at wing. He had a great game tonight. That's the frustrating thing - we all see the flashes of what he might be but also see the extended periods where he drifts with soft, perimeter play. Maybe playing against his brother also helped bring out his quality game.

I'm not one to buy into the body language stuff around Draisaitl. Guy's a warrior and a team-first guy. Personally think his frustration is more inward based always believing and wanting to help carry this team through his own play. Burns with that elite intensity to win. And that he's bought in to the greater team need to complement McDavid as a 2C with a power forward game.

Yeah. Just to change the topic it seems kinda clear which nights McLeod is going to be bringing it. That said he was developing into quite a player under Tippett, and given more roles, and the player suffered under Woody. I really believe that for some reason Mcleod wasn't getting the same looks and usage. For instance I mentioned that McLeod would get looks with Drai from time to time, and even had some in playoffs and it looked OK. If you recall Tippett was also the one that had McLeod playing C so that RNH could be a winger. McLeod is a psyche that needs to be given minutes and bigger roles. He really needs that. It helps him to roll into games. he appears to be a player that benefits from minutes and bigger expectations.

McLeod is so good at establishing Ozone when he's playing with some talent. That alone helps Drai in his game. Means that it doesn't fall on Drai to make every aspect of transition on a line.

On one faceoff Drai wins faceoff clear in own zone, then somehow gets puck, then makes breakout pass to Foegele or Kane who f*** up the play and the next thing Drai knows its another rush against. and a puck going out, and another own zone draw. Its relentless how much his wingers were causing plays to go back. it wasn't Drai making any poor passes or drop passes. Its gotta be frustrating at times.

 

[Da McBomb]

View attachment 788535

Not bad... But they're no Steve Urkel

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Yeah. Just to change the topic it seems kinda clear which nights McLeod is going to be bringing it. That said he was developing into quite a player under Tippett, and given more roles, and the player suffered under Woody. I really believe that for some reason Mcleod wasn't getting the same looks and usage. For instance I mentioned that McLeod would get looks with Drai from time to time, and even had some in playoffs and it looked OK. If you recall Tippett was also the one that had McLeod playing C so that RNH could be a winger. McLeod is a psyche that needs to be given minutes and bigger roles. He really needs that. It helps him to roll into games. he appears to be a player that benefits from minutes and bigger expectations.

McLeod is so good at establishing Ozone when he's playing with some talent. That alone helps Drai in his game. Means that it doesn't fall on Drai to make every aspect of transition on a line.

Personally I put accountability on players for the majority of their development and deployment. McLeod is as advertised since his draft and junior days. He's a player that can dazzle with skill but prone to play a perimeter game. Has the size to bring a physical, hard game (like we see with McDavid) but seldom brings that element. His hockey sense is okay but not above average so the hands and skill elements of his game can also vary wildly.

Tippett stacked McDavid and Draisaitl and most often deferred to Nugent Hopkins to try to whip up any support on Line 2. But agreed he did experiment at times with running McLeod at centre and utilizing Nugent Hopkins' utility at wing. McLeod has to seize the opportunity through greater consistency and ironing out ability to deliver it on a game-to-game basis. The players raw toolkit is formidable. The gap is internal whether he can harness the sum of all parts imo.

The Oil need to have a strong, consistent (and I think physical/gritty) 3C to help lock down goal suppression needs of this team.

 

[Satire]

Drai generally looks fine to me. I think we're just too hard on him because we expect him to be playoff Drai all the time. I know he's not producing like he's used to, but he's still generally contributing and producing. We're lucky to have that problem. He definitely hasn't found his ideal linemates yet.

Team is playing a lot better than we're giving them credit for. All 3 games we lost I felt we win more often than not. We need more consistent goal tending and better finish, but otherwise the team is generally playing well.

 

[gordonhught]

Drai generally looks fine to me. I think we're just too hard on him because we expect him to be playoff Drai all the time. I know he's not producing like he's used to, but he's still generally contributing and producing. We're lucky to have that problem. He definitely hasn't found his ideal linemates yet.

Team is playing a lot better than we're giving them credit for. All 3 games we lost I felt we win more often than not. We need more consistent goal tending and better finish, but otherwise the team is generally playing well.

Generally speaking.

 

[McDeepika]

The other aspect is that when McD turns it on no other player, no other mortal stands close to him. I say this because Drai is constantly compared to the greatest player on earth and thats always going to turn out second fiddle. Drai would be the best player on 20-25 teams in the league and nobody would be complaining about his play every day, every thread.

Drai is currently being the Defensive 2nd line forward playing with mostly substandard players, he's getting the D zone starts, all the hard work, all the heavy lifting, and he's scored in each game on the road trip and I tune into the thread and the #1 topic, like usual, is how much better Drai should be. I dunno.

It is actually a compliment. I think McDavid is the best player ever (better than Gretzky). The fact that Drai can go toe to toe with him speaks to his insane skill level. You cant find his combination of size, strength, passing, shot, nastiness. The frustration comes from when he doesn't use those those tools and instead just floats around.

 

[Satire]

Generally speaking.

Of course.

 

[subnet]

Average in net is progress. just saying. Guy made some stops and to highlight he also cancelled a breakaway with a great rush out to play a puck out of harm. The Oilers on the ice were shocked, its like they didn't know what to do. Of course the only time Skinner did that he got burned with a GA.

Exactly. At this point, all we need is average. If we had average goaltending, we wouldn’t be this bad in the win/loss column. We have had so much worse than average so far this season but are still so close to the playoff hunt. We’ll get there eventually!

It’s a long season, we know that. There’s a ton of ground to make up but some of us know we’re capable and will make the playoffs in the end. Without a better goalie however, we aren’t going anywhere.

If we get even average goaltending, which we haven’t had, we’re a playoff team. If we trade for just an average or OMG a better than average goalie, I truly believe we are a contender. Not that we don’t have other holes, but with our elite PP and offensive game with Drai and McD, we really are unique. We’ve been terrible this year but I really think we are close to doing some damage in the end.

 

[Dhockey16]

It is actually a compliment. I think McDavid is the best player ever (better than Gretzky). The fact that Drai can go toe to toe with him speaks to his insane skill level. You cant find his combination of size, strength, passing, shot, nastiness. The frustration comes from when he doesn't use those those tools and instead just floats around.

Yeah, people recoil at that, but honestly that's my feeling as well. There's no hard statistical justification for saying this - best I can come up with using hard numbers is 3rd best offensive player ever behind 99 and 66. He's clearly not the greatest player ever and definitely not the most accomplished. It's just a matter of his statistical excellence plus the eye test, for lack of a better phrase.

I'm as biased as anyone, we were lucky enough to have McDavid here in Erie (literally the only the reason the team didn't move, he totally could've said nah I ain't moving at 15 to a different country to play for your dogshit OHL franchise in your rust belt industrial city. seriously Connor, thanks for coming dude). Saw him play something like 60-65 games - playoffs included - over 3 years and about 20 games his draft season. His draft year was the single most ridiculous display of dominance on the ice you can imagine. That's when he grew a couple inches and his speed went to another dimension. I knew he was a generational talent for certain but I never imagined he'd look that much better than every other player in the NHL. Then, after already having chocked up 4 Art Ross trophies - as many as Sid+Ovi+Geno - he goes and nets 64 f-ing goals and 150 points last year. He's unlikely to have a season that great again but he might have a couple more 130+ point seasons in him. I really hope he can win a cup with the Oilers. If he leaves without winning his legacy will be unfairly damaged. More than anything though it's bringing a Stanley Cup back to Edmonton and to Canada. It'd only be fitting for it to be him that does it. A feather in the cap of the best hockey player I've ever seen.

In other words: Kenny H, Jeff Jackson, and Daryl Katz - go get a goddamn goaltender. Clock is ticking.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, people recoil at that, but honestly that's my feeling as well. There's no hard statistical justification for saying this - best I can come up with using hard numbers is 3rd best offensive player ever behind 99 and 66. He's clearly not the greatest player ever and definitely not the most accomplished. It's just a matter of his statistical excellence plus the eye test, for lack of a better phrase.

McDavid is the best player I've seen since mid-1990s' Mario Lemieux.

However, McDavid is not as good as Gretzky was and, at least offensively, he's not as good as Lemieux was either.

If you go by Hockey Ref's (highy flawed, but for a 'ballpark' figure) "adjusted points" method for individual seasons (ignoring pre 1929-30):
170 -- Gretzky 1986
166 -- Gretzky 1985
165 -- Lemieux 1989
163 -- Gretzky 1984 (74 games played)
159 -- Gretzky 1983
158 -- McDavid 2021 (56 game season)
156 -- Gretzky 1982
156 -- Lemieux 1996
155 -- Gretzky 1987
146 -- Gretzky 1991
146 -- McDavid 2023
145 -- Jágr 1999
144 -- Jágr 1996

By this metric (which, again, is highly flawed, I admit) McDavid's best FULL season (last year) comes out equivalent in point production to Gretzky's 1991 season in Los Angeles, but six of his nine Edmonton seasons are ahead of McDavid's best. (Had Wayne not missed six games in 1984, he likely would have an adjusted 181-point season that year. Lemieux would be up there in 1993 if not for injury, too.)

If you go by peer domination of scoring, Gretzky comes out even further ahead than this. I doubt any player in any pro-sport (in North America, anyway) will ever be as statistically dominant as Gretzky from 1981-82 through 1986-87:
1219 -- Gretzky (+459)
698 -- Bossy (+220)
681 -- Stastny (+42)
677 -- Kurri (+284)

Then, Gretzky from 1981 through 1989 (throw in 1993 and 1997) might be the best playoff performer, ever.

Then, in international hockey, it's yet more staggering: Gretzky participated in the 1978 world juniors, 1981 Canada Cup, 1982 World Championships, 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, and 1991 Canada Cups.... and he was the leading scorer in EVERY ONE.

To put this into perspective, Gretzky once "won" the scoring title on January 7th. He could have sat out every game after that and won the Art Ross.

Now, of course (a) McDavid is 'flashier' than Gretzky (the less knowledgeable hockey fan would find him more exciting to watch, maybe), and (b) it's clearly 'harder' to dominate peers at 1970s-1990s' levels in today's NHL (although, then again, it's easier now that it was before 2018). But McDavid isn't Gretzky.

That's okay -- he's McDavid, the best player in the world. I think, when it's all said and done, he's going down as a top-six player of all time.

 

[5 14 6 1]

Campbell + Broberg for Elvis 400K retained

 

[Fishy McScales]

I wonder if he needed a police escort out of the building tonight.

Nah it was just him and the McLeods left at the end of the game.

 

[Dhockey16]

McDavid is the best player I've seen since mid-1990s' Mario Lemieux.

However, McDavid is not as good as Gretzky was and, at least offensively, he's not as good as Lemieux was either.

If you go by Hockey Ref's (highy flawed, but for a 'ballpark' figure) "adjusted points" method for individual seasons (ignoring pre 1929-30):
170 -- Gretzky 1986
166 -- Gretzky 1985
165 -- Lemieux 1989
163 -- Gretzky 1984 (74 games played)
159 -- Gretzky 1983
158 -- McDavid 2021 (56 game season)
156 -- Gretzky 1982
156 -- Lemieux 1996
155 -- Gretzky 1987
146 -- Gretzky 1991
146 -- McDavid 2023
145 -- Jágr 1999
144 -- Jágr 1996

By this metric (which, again, is highly flawed, I admit) McDavid's best FULL season (last year) comes out equivalent in point production to Gretzky's 1991 season in Los Angeles, but six of his nine Edmonton seasons are ahead of McDavid's best. (Had Wayne not missed six games in 1984, he likely would have an adjusted 181-point season that year. Lemieux would be up there in 1993 if not for injury, too.)

If you go by peer domination of scoring, Gretzky comes out even further ahead than this. I doubt any player in any pro-sport (in North America, anyway) will ever be as statistically dominant as Gretzky from 1981-82 through 1986-87:
1219 -- Gretzky (+459)
698 -- Bossy (+220)
681 -- Stastny (+42)
677 -- Kurri (+284)

Then, Gretzky from 1981 through 1989 (throw in 1993 and 1997) might be the best playoff performer, ever.

Then, in international hockey, it's yet more staggering: Gretzky participated in the 1978 world juniors, 1981 Canada Cup, 1982 World Championships, 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, and 1991 Canada Cups.... and he was the leading scorer in EVERY ONE.

To put this into perspective, Gretzky once "won" the scoring title on January 7th. He could have sat out every game after that and won the Art Ross.

Now, of course (a) McDavid is 'flashier' than Gretzky (the less knowledgeable hockey fan would find him more exciting to watch, maybe), and (b) it's clearly 'harder' to dominate peers at 1970s-1990s' levels in today's NHL (although, then again, it's easier now that it was before 2018). But McDavid isn't Gretzky.

That's okay -- he's McDavid, the best player in the world. I think, when it's all said and done, he's going down as a top-six player of all time.

I'm a great fan of the game and it's history and am quite familiar with the hard statistical analysis. As I explicitly said in my post, I can't make a make a case for 97 over Gretz or Mario using numbers. Hockeyrefs adjusted points is as good a metric as we're likely to get.

There are hard to quantify criteria that are eminently valid and observable. What I can come up with quickly:

-Population size.. more people alive & playing hockey...average player will almost necessarily be better. Hard to argue this with sports fans, but clearly true.
-Goalie technique & training improvement. Every movement, position and angle is now considered, often mathematically. Equipment has gotten bigger but that's probably offset by how good sticks are now.
-Internationalization of NHL. The league in Gretzky and Mario's playing days would've been indisputably better with Soviets playing. That's 1 or 2 or 4 more games against Fetisov on D. Ditto with Tretiak. Same reason pre-segregation baseball is tough to evaluate, though to a lesser extent in hockey.
-League parity. Games are closer - many fewer opportunities to pile on insurance points.

I'm sure I can come up with more. As I said, these aren't easy to evaluate in concrete terms. But they do make a difference - in the fantasy where we could fairly calculate this stuff it might only make McDavid 0.75% more impressive. Maybe 5%. Point is, it's not nothing.

Fundamentally it's a gut feeling. I expect we'll have to wait another 25 or 30 years before we see a guy this good.

 

[T-Funk]

I can't believe they didn't scratch brown before his millions kicked in. Loyal to bums.

 

[stewy04]

So McLeods parent get season tickets? That was his best game by far!

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Call rodrigue up already. All three goals pickard let in were terrible.

 

[SaltNPeca]

Drai generally looks fine to me. I think we're just too hard on him because we expect him to be playoff Drai all the time. I know he's not producing like he's used to, but he's still generally contributing and producing. We're lucky to have that problem. He definitely hasn't found his ideal linemates yet.

Team is playing a lot better than we're giving them credit for. All 3 games we lost I felt we win more often than not. We need more consistent goal tending and better finish, but otherwise the team is generally playing well.

agree.

"big, lazy, slow" "just floats around"

It gets exhausting to constantly defend the player to Oiler fans who don't appreciate nor understand his methodical style of play.

imo pairing him with Brown has been a big part of his dip this season. His past production w/ Foegle was good, and this games production once he was paired with McLeod & Foegle was right there.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Is it me? or does Draisaitl flanked by McLeod and Foegele look a lot like oldschool Memorial Cup Draisatil with the Kelowna Rockets. Slows the game down to a chess game, and then he's an absolute magnet for somehow getting the puck on his stick in the right situation at the right time.

In a way it sort of resembles 39 year old Mario Lemieux when he was flanked by Morozov, and Straka.

That line works, for a lot of different reasons than with Nuge/Yam, or McDavid/Kane.

 

[BlackDogg]

Sorry if posted. Ridiculous media

 

[Drivesaitl]

McDavid is the best player I've seen since mid-1990s' Mario Lemieux.

However, McDavid is not as good as Gretzky was and, at least offensively, he's not as good as Lemieux was either.

If you go by Hockey Ref's (highy flawed, but for a 'ballpark' figure) "adjusted points" method for individual seasons (ignoring pre 1929-30):
170 -- Gretzky 1986
166 -- Gretzky 1985
165 -- Lemieux 1989
163 -- Gretzky 1984 (74 games played)
159 -- Gretzky 1983
158 -- McDavid 2021 (56 game season)
156 -- Gretzky 1982
156 -- Lemieux 1996
155 -- Gretzky 1987
146 -- Gretzky 1991
146 -- McDavid 2023
145 -- Jágr 1999
144 -- Jágr 1996

By this metric (which, again, is highly flawed, I admit) McDavid's best FULL season (last year) comes out equivalent in point production to Gretzky's 1991 season in Los Angeles, but six of his nine Edmonton seasons are ahead of McDavid's best. (Had Wayne not missed six games in 1984, he likely would have an adjusted 181-point season that year. Lemieux would be up there in 1993 if not for injury, too.)

If you go by peer domination of scoring, Gretzky comes out even further ahead than this. I doubt any player in any pro-sport (in North America, anyway) will ever be as statistically dominant as Gretzky from 1981-82 through 1986-87:
1219 -- Gretzky (+459)
698 -- Bossy (+220)
681 -- Stastny (+42)
677 -- Kurri (+284)

Then, Gretzky from 1981 through 1989 (throw in 1993 and 1997) might be the best playoff performer, ever.

Then, in international hockey, it's yet more staggering: Gretzky participated in the 1978 world juniors, 1981 Canada Cup, 1982 World Championships, 1984 Canada Cup, 1987 Canada Cup, and 1991 Canada Cups.... and he was the leading scorer in EVERY ONE.

To put this into perspective, Gretzky once "won" the scoring title on January 7th. He could have sat out every game after that and won the Art Ross.

Now, of course (a) McDavid is 'flashier' than Gretzky (the less knowledgeable hockey fan would find him more exciting to watch, maybe), and (b) it's clearly 'harder' to dominate peers at 1970s-1990s' levels in today's NHL (although, then again, it's easier now that it was before 2018). But McDavid isn't Gretzky.

That's okay -- he's McDavid, the best player in the world. I think, when it's all said and done, he's going down as a top-six player of all time.

Very good post, thanks for this one.

Gretzky was better, and I've seen both infinitely. Connor has the best athleticism but he doesn't come close to Gretz surgical precision. Gretz was an unstoppable force in his on days and nothing stopped it. Connor can be stopped or stymied by good clubs.

The players are very different. Gretz was much more the tactician exploiting any weaknesses in the enemy and finding ways to exploit even when there was no weakness. Gretz developed so many facets to rule on ice. He was a marvel. A once ever. All this and he played his career without todays improved equipment, improved skates, and advanced Carbon Graphite sticks.

Connor is the blow the doors off fella. Far less subtle but more explosive edges. Gretz was no slouch at this either and would dance on skates in any direction while making complex plays. Connor wants to use speed and quick starts to exploit and score. Gretz used them to create open ice, separation, and to either score or devise a trap.

In talking about Wayne Gretzky important to mention that his game was so involved, so predatory that he would actually look at the glass to see where everybody is on ice. who does that? Todays Plexiglass and lighting would make it even easier for Gretz to do that. Gretz would play the game like chess knowing where the pieces are and what exploits were open given a particular positional setup of pieces. Gretz played the game, in real time, as if he had the video from directly above and with all camera angles. This is what he processed when he played. Nobody else like it.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Sorry if posted. Ridiculous media

Connor must've been thinking are these f***ing people high?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Personally I put accountability on players for the majority of their development and deployment. McLeod is as advertised since his draft and junior days. He's a player that can dazzle with skill but prone to play a perimeter game. Has the size to bring a physical, hard game (like we see with McDavid) but seldom brings that element. His hockey sense is okay but not above average so the hands and skill elements of his game can also vary wildly.

Tippett stacked McDavid and Draisaitl and most often deferred to Nugent Hopkins to try to whip up any support on Line 2. But agreed he did experiment at times with running McLeod at centre and utilizing Nugent Hopkins' utility at wing. McLeod has to seize the opportunity through greater consistency and ironing out ability to deliver it on a game-to-game basis. The players raw toolkit is formidable. The gap is internal whether he can harness the sum of all parts imo.

The Oil need to have a strong, consistent (and I think physical/gritty) 3C to help lock down goal suppression needs of this team.

But as I stated Mcleod NEEDS toi to untrack. needs more roles and expectations. Throw more at him and he does more. Its like Booch in that regard without the weapons. But Booch will try out more plays given more minutes. Booch was incredible again in this game, what a player. He's an allstar now and possibility of superstar. Back to McLeod he also tries different shakes, cuts, circles the more time he's given. Its hard to explain but the more footprints he has on a game with minutes, the better he is. All the McLeods are like this. These are players that grew up playing ALL the minutes. They are throwbacks, the way they play is throw pucks out on a lake and skate miles. Ryan McLeod needs roles like a fish needs water.

This is why I want more looks particularly with Drai, and that the speed and Ryans ability to find open areas benefits Drai as it gives him a cycle target and it gives him a guy that will be first to pucks. McLeods game was completely stymied by Woodcroft and we might now see an awakening. Not noted nearly enough was Woody was very impatient with mistakes and would frequently allocate minutes away from players making them (although he played favorites) but mistakes are required to learn. Look again how Booch game is exploding under KK and Coffey. Its like a next tier has been triggered. The constant matra is "you are here to make plays, so make plays" that is so much more refreshing then a stop making any mistakes approach, which is antithetical to hockey.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

Sorry if posted. Ridiculous media

Is that the new “Marty Reasonser is Joe Sakic with a better shot”?

 

[joestevens29]

Personally I put accountability on players for the majority of their development and deployment. McLeod is as advertised since his draft and junior days. He's a player that can dazzle with skill but prone to play a perimeter game. Has the size to bring a physical, hard game (like we see with McDavid) but seldom brings that element. His hockey sense is okay but not above average so the hands and skill elements of his game can also vary wildly.

Tippett stacked McDavid and Draisaitl and most often deferred to Nugent Hopkins to try to whip up any support on Line 2. But agreed he did experiment at times with running McLeod at centre and utilizing Nugent Hopkins' utility at wing. McLeod has to seize the opportunity through greater consistency and ironing out ability to deliver it on a game-to-game basis. The players raw toolkit is formidable. The gap is internal whether he can harness the sum of all parts imo.

The Oil need to have a strong, consistent (and I think physical/gritty) 3C to help lock down goal suppression needs of this team.

I honestly didn't remember the scouting report on McLeod, but Yaremchuk was saying a friend that was scouting in the AHL said the biggest knock is he is afraid to get into the tough areas. I mean if the guy isn't doing that in junior what are the odds he'll ever do that at the NHL level?