Speculation: Who does Yzerman steal from Tampa Bay?

[HawkeyTalkMan]

Dale Tallon has made a fair number of trades with the Hawks since leaving them.

Bergevin has also made a couple trades with the hawks since leaving

Danault for weise/fleischman

Shaw for a few picks

 

[Laus723]

thats kind of unfair though, because dale tallon doesnt have an eye for talent

hows jack skille doing

Yeah, he’s turrible, only selected Barkov over Drouin (was called out for it), selected Trocheck in the 3rd, picked Huberdeau, and that’s just a few from Florida. Some later round guys held their own this year, but he’s crap cause he liked Skille??

Guy definitely has his flaws, but who doesn't? But it’s cool, I’m thrilled that he came here and is still here.

 

[kilowatt]

Yeah, he’s turrible, only selected Barkov over Drouin (was called out for it), selected Trocheck in the 3rd, picked Huberdeau, and that’s just a few from Florida. Some later round guys held their own this year, but he’s crap cause he liked Skille??

Guy definitely has his flaws, but who doesn't? But it’s cool, I’m thrilled that he came here and is still here.

you (or someone) said he brought talent with him from chicago. i dont think he did

he has done well drafting, but i was also just being facetious and making a joke ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[obey86]

I'm very curious how you came to this conclusion, because you cannot hide contracts over the summer with LTIR.

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding something it looks like you free up only 8.5M in space in July.

Yes you essentially can, as you can go over the cap by 10% in the offseason.

For example, let's say you have a guy making 5M who is going to go on LTIR when the season starts, and the salary cap is 80M. That means in the offseason the team can go up to 88M (80 x 1.10 = 88). So, in this example, the team spends to (let's say) 84M in the offseason (still under the 88M limit), and once the season starts the player goes on LTIR, freeing up 5M and putting them in compliance with the 80M salary cap, at 79M.

The Wings have done this the past 2-3 seasons or so.

 

[obey86]

20+ is a considerable stretch lol.
Hey if you want to spend the money that way you can always look forward to next years lottery. Detroit has some awesome pieces and if they add wisely they can make big steps. Callahan unfortunately just is not one of them.
Hey just my opinion.

No it's not actually.

If the cap increases to 83M (as projected) the Wings will have 12M in cap space. BUT, they have an additional 8.3M to spend since Franzen and Z will be going on LTIR as soon as the season starts and the team can go 10% over the salary cap in the offseason. 12M + 8.3M = ......... 20.3M. And they only have like 2-3 roster spots to fill.

So no, 20+ is not a stretch.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I'm very curious how you came to this conclusion, because you cannot hide contracts over the summer with LTIR.

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding something it looks like you free up only 8.5M in space in July.

Wanna bet, You absolutely can hide contracts if said players have career ending injuries like Franzen and Zetterberg and haven't played a single game in the prior year. Don't tell us we can't we've been doing it for the past 2-3 years now. You can absolutely had contracts this coming summer if said players are on career ending LTIR like both Z and Mule are.

 

[Devilsfan118]

Yes you essentially can, as you can go over the cap by 10% in the offseason.

For example, let's say you have a guy making 5M who is going to go on LTIR when the season starts, and the salary cap is 80M. That means in the offseason the team can go up to 88M (80 x 1.10 = 88). So, in this example, the team spends to (let's say) 84M in the offseason (still under the 88M limit), and once the season starts the player goes on LTIR, freeing up 5M and putting them in compliance with the 80M salary cap, at 79M.

The Wings have done this the past 2-3 seasons or so.

The 10% rule I knew about - but the Red Wings have 15m tied up with guys that are going to be LTIR'd. So, as you said, even with the 10% "padding"..

80M (hypothetical cap) + 8M (10% overextension) + 15M (LTIR'd contracts) - 8.5M (expiring contracts) = 94.5M.. which leaves the Red Wings over the cap in the summer. So clearly I'm missing something.

**Edit to address LTIR.

Wanna bet, You absolutely can hide contracts if said players have career ending injuries like Franzen and Zetterberg and haven't played a single game in the prior year. Don't tell us we can't we've been doing it for the past 2-3 years now. You can absolutely had contracts this coming summer if said players are on career ending LTIR like both Z and Mule are.

First off, calm down. No need to be so defensive, we're just having a discussion.

But anyway - this is news to me. Do you have an article that discusses this?

 

[obey86]

The 10% rule I knew about - but the Red Wings have 15m tied up with guys that are going to be LTIR'd. So, as you said, even with the 10% "padding"..

80M (hypothetical cap) + 8M (10% overextension) - 8.5M (expiring contracts) = 79.5M.. which leaves the Red Wings with no room to do much of anything. So they'll be in compliance, absolutely, but there isn't room to be taking on bad contracts like some folks here are suggesting.



First off, calm down. No need to be so defensive, we're just having a discussion.

But anywyay - this is news to me. Do you have an article that discusses this?

You're way off on your math man. Im not sure where you're looking for your numbers but you are wrong. They literally will have ~20M to spend this offseason as I have shown in a previous post (I think it was a response to someone else though, not you).

And the Wings don't have 15M in LTIR guys for next year, they have ~10M (Franzen and Zetterberg). With the projected cap increase to 83M and 10% overage they can get back 8.3M of that 10M. Green is expected back next season and is not expected to be on LTIR if that's who you're looking at for the extra 5M.

I'll lay everything out again, using rounded numbers for simplicity:

71M in players under contract for next season.
83M the expected salary cap after 3M increase.
Leaves them with 12M in cap space before any LTIR or offseason 10% overage.
ok, so now...
the Wings can spend up to 91.3M in the offseason (83 x 1.1) with the 10% overage. If they spend up to (say) 91M in the offseason, they could then put Franzen and Z on LTIR (make 10M combined) when the season starts, taking them back down to ~81M (91M -10M) and under the salary cap. They lose 2M of cap space for the year (the difference between 83 and 81) by doing LTIR this way.

All of the above makes their effective salary cap space equal to 91M (what they can spend up to) - 71M (current salaries on the books) = ~20M.

They will not get the full 10M in LTIR savings from Franzen and Z but they will get 8.3M of it due to the 10% overage.

Do you understand?

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

The 10% rule I knew about - but the Red Wings have 15m tied up with guys that are going to be LTIR'd. So, as you said, even with the 10% "padding"..

80M (hypothetical cap) + 8M (10% overextension) + 15M (LTIR'd contracts) - 8.5M (expiring contracts) = 94.5M.. which leaves the Red Wings over the cap in the summer. So clearly I'm missing something.

**Edit to address LTIR.



First off, calm down. No need to be so defensive, we're just having a discussion.

But anyway - this is news to me. Do you have an article that discusses this?

There's an article out there, Saying that Detroit can immediately put both Franzen and Zetterberg on LTIR if they didn't play a single game the year before. As far as LTIR is concerned players can be put on LTIR once free agency starts but you don't get the full benefit until you wait closer to the season though. But players can be placed on LTIR in the summer and don't necessarily need to be cap compliant to do so. But like the other wing poster suggested Detroit will have about $20.3 million to spend with only 3 roster spots to fill. So cap isn't an issue for us this year. Next year will be different with several RFA's like Mantha, Bertuzzi and AA needing new deals.

 

[obey86]

There's an article out there, Saying that Detroit can immediately put both Franzen and Zetterberg on LTIR if they didn't play a single game the year before. As far as LTIR is concerned players can be put on LTIR once free agency starts but you don't get the full benefit until you wait closer to the season though. But players can be placed on LTIR in the summer and don't necessarily need to be cap compliant to do so. But like the other wing poster suggested Detroit will have about $20.3 million to spend with only 3 roster spots to fill. So cap isn't an issue for us this year. Next year will be different with several RFA's like Mantha, Bertuzzi and AA needing new deals.

Yep. To explain this difference further for people who don't understand (assuming an 83M cap with a 10% overage up to 91.3M):

*If the Wings spent up to 91M in the offseason, and then when the season starts put Z and Franzen (10M combined) on LTIR, that will drop their salary number to 81M for the season (91M-10M). There is a disadvantage to doing LTIR this way, rather than being cap compliant prior to the season starting, because now the Wings have to operate for the entire season with a salary cap of 81M instead of 83M. Meaning they have ZERO wiggle room. This is how the Wings have done their LTIR the past few seasons.

*The other LTIR route is to be cap complaint PRIOR to the season starting. So in this scenario, the Wings would spend up to only (let's say) 81M in the offseason. The season starts, and now Z and Franzen are put on LTIR, saving them 10M on the cap. This puts the Wings down to 71M but (unlike the previous scenario) they can operate for the entire season using the full salary cap of 83M (rather than 81M) so its definitely advantageous for the Wings to use option 2 here for full LTIR relief.

 

[Laus723]

you (or someone) said he brought talent with him from chicago. i dont think he did

he has done well drafting, but i was also just being facetious and making a joke ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wasn’t me, but it wasn’t really a good joke. He brought Brian Campbell, Versteeg, and Kopecky to name a few. Skille was traded as well, but we didn’t exactly give much up for him. Believe it was Olesz, who also fizzled out.

 

[Petes2424]

The Wings had interest in Stralman before, so he’s probably thought of well throughout the organization. Especially if Kronwall leaves the Wings will probably make a move for him.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

The 10% rule I knew about - but the Red Wings have 15m tied up with guys that are going to be LTIR'd. So, as you said, even with the 10% "padding"..

80M (hypothetical cap) + 8M (10% overextension) + 15M (LTIR'd contracts) - 8.5M (expiring contracts) = 94.5M.. which leaves the Red Wings over the cap in the summer. So clearly I'm missing something.

**Edit to address LTIR.



First off, calm down. No need to be so defensive, we're just having a discussion.

But anyway - this is news to me. Do you have an article that discusses this?

Uhh... Where are you getting the other $5M?

Franzen and Zetterberg account for $10M.

 

[Clayonator]

I mean, Detroit's been drafting particularly well since 2013, lol.

Detroit’s been drafting well since the 90’s hahaha

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Detroit’s been drafting well since the 90’s hahaha

Ehh. There were some dark years between 06-11.

 

[ccman68]

Brisebois isn’t stupid so Yzerman definitely isn’t gonna steal away a hidden gem or anything.

If he does take someone it’s gonna either be a guy like Johnson or Palat or possibly even a guy like Girardi. Definitely not the kind of guys that are gonna do much for you.

 

[Leviathan]

JT Miller. He likes the player more than Brisebois.

 

[Son of Petter]

Poaching Mikael Granlund doesn’t count? Amazing buy low job by them.

Fair enough. I had something a different in mind when reading about 'poaching talent'. None of those would even remotely qualify.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Out of curiosity, would Tampa want to free up cap enough to trade Callahan and their 1st (27th) for Detroit's 2nd? (35th)

If Nolan Foote is off the board I'd consider this. To anyone saying that's not enough to take Callahan I say BS. The cost to move up in the draft from 35 to 27 is usually a late 2nd or early 3rd. So essentially Detroit sends the 35 and one of the other 2nd's they have or their 3rd for the 27th. Tampa then sends that pick back to Detroit + Callahan for future considerations. Tampa pays a late 2nd to move Callahan. Callahan should be a useful bottom 6 wing most of the year then can be flipped for anaadditional pick at the deadline. I wouldn't call that a bad deal for Detroit.

 

[Iceman]

Out of curiosity, would Tampa want to free up cap enough to trade Callahan and their 1st (27th) for Detroit's 2nd? (35th)

Yes, getting rid of Callahan for 8 spots drop is very nice. The cost to get rid of Callahan has been exaggerated imo, but dropping 8 spots is nothing. You generally get what you want in late 1st/early 2nd because that’s usually where teams rankings starts to differ.

 

[Vitto79]

Wings are still in cap hell for a year or more so answer is no one

 

[obey86]

If Nolan Foote is off the board I'd consider this. To anyone saying that's not enough to take Callahan I say BS. The cost to move up in the draft from 35 to 27 is usually a late 2nd or early 3rd. So essentially Detroit sends the 35 and one of the other 2nd's they have or their 3rd for the 27th. Tampa then sends that pick back to Detroit + Callahan for future considerations. Tampa pays a late 2nd to move Callahan. Callahan should be a useful bottom 6 wing most of the year then can be flipped for anaadditional pick at the deadline. I wouldn't call that a bad deal for Detroit.

What? I don't get it. Why is Detroit sending TB a pick in this scenario...and why do two separate trades need to be made to get Callahan to DET?

 

[angry pirate]

I thought you had to be cap compliant to start the season, meaning that the Wings would need to be at 83 Million including LTIR. As soon as the season starts, they get put on LTIR, and gain that cap space after Day 1 to replace them.

The 10% exception is for off-season only, so that teams can make some signings/trades but the expectation is that they clear that overage before Day 1.

 

[obey86]

Wings are still in cap hell for a year or more so answer is no one

Wrong.

The Wings will have up to ~20M to spend next offseason with only like 4 roster to spots to fill. The following offseason, an additional ~20M opens up (although they will likely need to use most of that to re-sign Athanasiou, Mantha, and Bertuzzi.)

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Wings are still in cap hell for a year or more so answer is no one

Reading back before you speak can go a long way to prevent you from putting your foot in your mouth...

Larkin - $6.1M
Nielsen - $5.25M
Abdelkader - $4.25M
Helm - $3.85M
Mantha - $3.3M
Athanasiou - $3.0M
Glendening - $1.8M
Bertuzzi - $1.4M
Hirose - $925K
Zadina - $925K
Rasmussen - $894K
Svechnikov - $863K

Green - $5.375M
Dekeyser - $5.0M
Ericsson - $4.25M
Daley $3.16M
Bowey $1.0M
Cholowski - $894K
Hronek - $714K

Howard - $4.0M
Bernier - $3.0M

12 Forwards, 7 defenders, 2 goalies. $59.95M. The buyouts on Weiss and Ouelette have just under a $2M hit, which gives them about $21M under an $83M cap.

And yes, you can factor in LTIR before the drop dead date at the start of the season. Detroit's done it for the last two years.