Who does LA pick #2

[Ziggy Stardust]

He hardly ever played with Cammalleri. Cammalleri put up 80 points predominantly with Frolov and Armstrong in 06-07, Anze's rookie year, then dropped off considerably the next year WITH Anze before being dealt.

I don't think Smyth or O'Sullivan cracked 55 points on Anze's wing.

Toffoli had one year on Anze's wing, but yes, it was his best year so I will definitely give you that.

Kopitar put up a decent amount of his points in 2007-08 playing with Cammalleri.
Anze Kopitar - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

Most of Cammalleri’s points in his most productive season in LA came when Kopitar was on the ice.
Mike Cammalleri 2006-07 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Most of O’Sullivan’s points from his most productive season of 53 points came with Anze Kopitar as his center.
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/osullpa01/scoring/2008

Also, Kaliyev is the type of winger who gives his center options because he actually likes to drive the net and finds open spots below the hashmarks. You’re really underselling his smarts in the offensive zone and his ability to get open.


The guy also set goal scoring records that matched the numbers of proven snipers.

 

[Ray Martyniuk]

I don’t know about that.

For two seasons he lit up the OHL on a Bulldogs team with no-name centers and dragged Jan Jenik and Jan Mysak on his coattails to respectability.

There is more to him than the simplistic picture you paint.

no name players? Mysak could turn out to be a lot better than Kaliyev and Jenik is much appreciated by Coyotes scouts and soon fans

 

[Token]

There won't be in the NHL. He is going to be a specialist.

Sheesh, good thing you go into this with an open mind /s

Any chance you would consider a conversation on this or are you set?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Also again suggesting there's only one season of evidence of Byfield ignores what came before, top pick in his draft, dominance at previous levels too, etc.

If you mean against CHL competition I agree that there's only one real year under the heat lamp but again some folks are acting like he only rose to prominence this year, he's been a top prospect for several, and again I'd assert if Lafreniere didn't exist as being touted as the next great thing for the last 5 years people would be falling all over themselves to exalt Byfield.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Where's Rorschach? I'm expecting him to come bash Stutzle for his performance today against a bunch of junior amateurs from Switzerland.

 

[bland]

Kopitar put up a decent amount of his points in 2007-08 playing with Cammalleri.
Anze Kopitar - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

Most of Cammalleri’s points in his most productive season in LA came when Kopitar was on the ice.
Mike Cammalleri 2006-07 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Most of O’Sullivan’s points from his most productive season of 53 points came with Anze Kopitar as his center.
Patrick O'Sullivan 2007-08 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Also, Kaliyev is the type of winger who gives his center options because he actually likes to drive the net and finds open spots below the hashmarks. You’re really underselling his smarts in the offensive zone and his ability to get open.


The guy also set goal scoring records that matched the numbers of proven snipers.

 

[bland]

Sheesh, good thing you go into this with an open mind /s

Any chance you would consider a conversation on this or are you set?

Of course, let's see how it shakes out. But I am confident of my judgement here, and wouldn't bother posting if I wasn't.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Little bit of a writeup from a good follow here



Stutzle's assist:



The Barzal comparison is almost bang on imo, right down to the tendency to hang on to the puck and skate laps. Similarly, a lot of people thought "he'll never be able to do that in the NHL" and we saw how that went, so.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

But....this is why he's not top 10

 

[King'sPawn]

Byfield has had one season under the microscope, its way, way too early to dissect his strengths and potential weaknesses. He had a hell of a year and projects to be a very, very good pro. That's his value right now, untapped potential on top of very successful available evidence. I don't see how anyone could be certain of anything about a kid with such little source material. Any criticisms or comparisons to Hall of Famers is just conjecture that doesn't do him any good. I would bet his D+1 year is going to be massive.

I am curious about your opinion of Kaliyev though. I think there is plenty of evidence at hand to get a good feeling of his pro potential.

Regarding Byfield, most of these players get scouted for years. Byfield, in particular, has played in Canada so scouts have been able to watch him quite a bit since before his draft year. He's already "old hat" to some of them, where after extensive scouting it's been easier to make remarks on him.

Keep in mind, as I said before, I love Byfield. I had him No. 2 dating back to last year, and I told John Hoven of MayorsManor to keep an eye on him before this season even started. So, I agree his D+1 will be massive. I just think there are some criticisms which, while "accurate" is also unfair and missing context.

Regarding Kaliyev, I'll try to keep it short. Not because I don't want to discuss it, but I don't want to veer off topic. I'd be more than happy to hop on and either continue either via DMs or on a separate thread.

Long story short, there is an extra season of evaluation. But I still think it's too early to pencil a player in a role after his D+1 season. That said, if we were forced to evaluate a player with the cut off being his D+1 season, I'd disagree with you in the "specialist" or even his likely incompatibility with Kopitar. Here's why:

- Kaliyev is truly one of the dual-threats when it comes to offense, at least at the junior level. He has a dangerous shot, but he's an underrated playmaker. Those 105 assists the past two seasons aren't by accident and aren't all from teammates hammering in rebounds.
- Like Byfield, Kaliyev is on the younger side of his draft class (he just turned 19 less than a month ago)
- As previously alluded, Kaliyev was able to score points even when Jan Jenik was out. It's not like he was depending on someone to feed him. He was self-reliant.
- He tries to generate offense from all over. His heatmap from last season is below, showing where he shoots from. Most notably at even strength, he's fighting from right in front. You need to be a worker to be willing to do that:

- I know you're not a fan of analytics, but Kaliyev is No. 10 overall in primary points/game in all the CHL (which includes OHL, QMJHL, and WHL) of all age groups (according to pick224.com). Considering Hamilton was not a strong offensive team, Kaliyev was showing a willingness and ability to drive the play

I just think there's a lot more to Kaliyev than you're giving credit for, and I think it's too early to reach a conclusion.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I also think Kaliyev did not look totally out of place in his limited NHL action, for what that's worth. He's got a big brain. He might not be able to get to the D zone to be a big deal there, but there's room for a Vanek type. Especially on this team that has been starved for offense, it would be foolish to wonder "yeah but can he play d?"

 

[The Lukeman]

One thing I hate about Stutzle's game is how he cycles in the zone. Its one of his few downsides and it is not effective on smaller ice. When circles in and out, he leaves himself open for only about 1-2 seconds and the rest of the time he becomes irrelevant to the play. He produces A LOT like this in the DEL. It forces his team to cycle on the other side of the ice. Granted they got a goal here, but an NHL pk would easily dismantle this set up. The DEL has larger ice and is very poor defensively, so we see this work okay there.

This is a perfect reason why I say Stutzle tries to skate his way into production. It relies on defensive breakdowns solely from skating. It happens a lot in lower tier hockey, but rarely in the NHL. He skates his way into those excellent passes. It shows off his IQ, but it's not efficient.

It reminds me of when Jeff Carter scored goal #4 in game 6 against New Jersey. He comes off the bench and scores because no one can pick him up due to the line change. Its like Stutzle is trying to replicate it, but your not going to be successful against defensively sound competition (aka the NHL).

 

[tbrown33]

Regarding Byfield, most of these players get scouted for years. Byfield, in particular, has played in Canada so scouts have been able to watch him quite a bit since before his draft year. He's already "old hat" to some of them, where after extensive scouting it's been easier to make remarks on him.

Keep in mind, as I said before, I love Byfield. I had him No. 2 dating back to last year, and I told John Hoven of MayorsManor to keep an eye on him before this season even started. So, I agree his D+1 will be massive. I just think there are some criticisms which, while "accurate" is also unfair and missing context.

Regarding Kaliyev, I'll try to keep it short. Not because I don't want to discuss it, but I don't want to veer off topic. I'd be more than happy to hop on and either continue either via DMs or on a separate thread.

Long story short, there is an extra season of evaluation. But I still think it's too early to pencil a player in a role after his D+1 season. That said, if we were forced to evaluate a player with the cut off being his D+1 season, I'd disagree with you in the "specialist" or even his likely incompatibility with Kopitar. Here's why:

- Kaliyev is truly one of the dual-threats when it comes to offense, at least at the junior level. He has a dangerous shot, but he's an underrated playmaker. Those 105 assists the past two seasons aren't by accident and aren't all from teammates hammering in rebounds.
- Like Byfield, Kaliyev is on the younger side of his draft class (he just turned 19 less than a month ago)
- As previously alluded, Kaliyev was able to score points even when Jan Jenik was out. It's not like he was depending on someone to feed him. He was self-reliant.
- He tries to generate offense from all over. His heatmap from last season is below, showing where he shoots from. Most notably at even strength, he's fighting from right in front. You need to be a worker to be willing to do that:

- I know you're not a fan of analytics, but Kaliyev is No. 10 overall in primary points/game in all the CHL (which includes OHL, QMJHL, and WHL) of all age groups (according to pick224.com). Considering Hamilton was not a strong offensive team, Kaliyev was showing a willingness and ability to drive the play

I just think there's a lot more to Kaliyev than you're giving credit for, and I think it's too early to reach a conclusion.

damn he scored twice below the goalline?

 

[The Lukeman]

I watched and did a complete shift by shift breakdown of Stutzle's game today against Switzerland.

Here is the link to the google sheet that breaks down each individual shift and what he did.

Here is the YouTube link to the game with all the time stamps in the google sheet.

To summarize, Jokke Nevalainen's assessment about Stutzle's game today is correct, it was pretty disappointing and he did not look like a top 5 pick today. He definitely has played better games. We got a good look at him at center, and I didn't like it.

Positives:
Made several nice passes, one that led to an assist. Was able to make a couple of transition plays (either skating, or stretch passes that worked). His skating also showed, where he was able to blow by opponents several times to get the puck into the offensive zone. Also drew a penalty moving his feet.

He also forced 4 takeaways, including several good offensive forechecks. He makes his money checking opponents between offensive face off circle and center ice. That 1/3rd of the ice was Stutzle's most effective area. He was also decent in the faceoff circle. Went 8/17 (47%) against center men who were older than him. Not bad at all.



Negatives:
Today's game made me very doubtful of Stutzle's ability to play center. In nearly every single instance, Stutzle would be the first player leaving the zone trying to force a stretch pass opportunity, or he was the last player to enter his defensive zone. Centers do not do that, wingers do. As a center he played like a winger. He never covered the center of the defensive end, and all 3 goals were scored from that area and were scored because he did not cover his man.

He also only handled the puck 5 times in the offensive zone the entire game, despite getting 16:39 of ice time and playing as the #1 line for Germany. Countless amount of times where Germany was in the offensive zone, and he did not play a factor due to not being an option. He did score an assist on a good pass, but it came only after him skating around the world and generating nothing for 15 seconds, until a teammate (Peterka) was open. This was a common theme tonight. Stutzle would often stickhandle is way through anything and everything. Led 6 turnovers. Some of which were very avoidable with an easy pass to a teammate that was in good position. That was when Stutzle looked most noticeable.

The most difficult thing about Stutzle is how played the power play. He cycles in and out of his zone to generate speed. This results in him being in a good position for about 1-2 seconds, and then is unavailable for 7-8 seconds. Every time he was on the ice during the power play, he was not an option, and the puck stayed on the opposite side of the ice. That strategy works in the DEL, because of the larger ice. It does not work on smaller rinks.

Played an okay 1st period, good 2nd period, and a bad 3rd period.

 

[cyclones22]

I watched and did a complete shift by shift breakdown of Stutzle's game today against Switzerland.

Here is the link to the google sheet that breaks down each individual shift and what he did.

Here is the YouTube link to the game with all the time stamps in the google sheet.

To summarize, Jokke Nevalainen's assessment about Stutzle's game today is correct, it was pretty disappointing and he did not look like a top 5 pick today. He definitely has played better games. We got a good look at him at center, and I didn't like it.

Positives:
Made several nice passes, one that led to an assist. Was able to make a couple of transition plays (either skating, or stretch passes that worked). His skating also showed, where he was able to blow by opponents several times to get the puck into the offensive zone. Also drew a penalty moving his feet.

He also forced 4 takeaways, including several good offensive forechecks. He makes his money checking opponents between offensive face off circle and center ice. That 1/3rd of the ice was Stutzle's most effective area. He was also decent in the faceoff circle. Went 8/17 (47%) against center men who were older than him. Not bad at all.



Negatives:
Today's game made me very doubtful of Stutzle's ability to play center. In nearly every single instance, Stutzle would be the first player leaving the zone trying to force a stretch pass opportunity, or he was the last player to enter his defensive zone. Centers do not do that, wingers do. As a center he played like a winger. He never covered the center of the defensive end, and all 3 goals were scored from that area and were scored because he did not cover his man.

He also only handled the puck 5 times in the offensive zone the entire game, despite getting 16:39 of ice time and playing as the #1 line for Germany. Countless amount of times where Germany was in the offensive zone, and he did not play a factor due to not being an option. He did score an assist on a good pass, but it came only after him skating around the world and generating nothing for 15 seconds, until a teammate (Peterka) was open. This was a common theme tonight. Stutzle would often stickhandle is way through anything and everything. Led 6 turnovers. Some of which were very avoidable with an easy pass to a teammate that was in good position. That was when Stutzle looked most noticeable.

The most difficult thing about Stutzle is how played the power play. He cycles in and out of his zone to generate speed. This results in him being in a good position for about 1-2 seconds, and then is unavailable for 7-8 seconds. Every time he was on the ice during the power play, he was not an option, and the puck stayed on the opposite side of the ice. That strategy works in the DEL, because of the larger ice. It does not work on smaller rinks.

Played an okay 1st period, good 2nd period, and a bad 3rd period.

This is why I read everything this guy posts. The Lukeman and King'sPawn are the MVPs of this thread. And not just because they also prefer Byfield at #2 as I do. They do and they back it up with analysis to the nth degree.

 

[Crownroyal21]

I agree 100%

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Honestly the Stutzle scouting report reads more and more like Barzal.

I think he'll find success in the NHL in similar fashion, and that people aren't going to like some of those things that make him so effective.

One just has to hope it's not a vision issue with Stutzle. I hope it's Barzal's borderline-arrogance with the puck.

 

[cyclones22]

Honestly the Stutzle scouting report reads more and more like Barzal.

I think he'll find success in the NHL in similar fashion, and that people aren't going to like some of those things that make him so effective.

One just has to hope it's not a vision issue with Stutzle. I hope it's Barzal's borderline-arrogance with the puck.

Barzal is a comparable I've thought of as well. Fine player and I'd take him on the team. But is he worth the #2 overall?

 

[Fishhead]

Barzal is a comparable I've thought of as well. Fine player and I'd take him on the team. But is he worth the #2 overall?

If he was guaranteed to turn into what he is now, then yes. Most redrafts have him going 3rd, and that's after McDavid and Eichel. In a typical draft I think he's at least a #2, he's a first line center - if not a franchise center.

I'd be ecstatic if whoever we pick at #2 puts up those kind of numbers.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The other thing that Stutzle does that really fits this version of the Kings is that Carl Hagelin-esque ability that @The Lukeman points out "He makes his money checking opponents between offensive face off circle and center ice." He's an absolute menace to the opposing breakout. Think of everything we like about Lizotte and add some speed and size and a gigantic amount of skill.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

I also think Kaliyev did not look totally out of place in his limited NHL action, for what that's worth.

I feel like I really missed something here, when did Kaliyev have any NHL action??

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I feel like I really missed something here, when did Kaliyev have any NHL action??

You didn't miss much. It was preseason, lol.

 

[Cat Herder]

Germany is playing the Swiss again today. They are in the 1st intermission and there is no score

Watch here

 

[Ray Martyniuk]

Spades are spades. Pretending all players are compatible doesn't do anyone any favors.

Kaliyev is not a well rounded player. He hides off of the puck, reads and jumps into lanes. He is going to need someone who creates those lanes otherwise he won't be as effective.

Kopitar carries the puck, draws in defenders, then dishes to linemates in close proximity who are cycling at the same pace. He is an option quarterback who would rather retain possession than risk 20 foot passes. He has been that player for his entire career - a hall of fame career at that. But he needs puck retrievers and cyclers on his wings - Kaliyev is neither. Gaborik was a highly skilled winger, but he was also a workhorse who supported play and didn't depend on someone else to make space for him. Everyone else who thrived with Anze were hard workers - Williams, Iafallo, Brown, Lucic - none of those guys played off of the puck, they cycled, recovered and supported - not Kaliyev's strengths.

Just like how he and Kovalchuk were incompatible, it will be the same with Kaliyev.

Kaliyev will survive by scoring goals! Do we have a centre that can play to his wheel-house...Kopi-Star,Carter,Kempe...Byfield,Turcotte...That's the question and can Kaliyev be a plus player. He'll need to learn to check some for certain and over time get better and better at it,but never forget why the Kings drafted him...potential elite goal scorer...the jump to the NHL from juniors at 19 is massive its not like going to University from High school...its more like doing a masters from high school and few do accomplish what is potentially is there...Stars play at 17,18,19...You don't to be the guy that plays 4th line minutes after being a Star scorer in Junior/College/Europe! PS if these players are to make it lets don't make them Wingers of the opposite sides they've played most of their lives! There are only so many Gaborik's(would have liked him in LA from 2000)! That would've been a treat...oh ya Kaliyev...he's got to be a 1st-2nd line winger,hopefully his strong side

 

[Nickster]

A thread of all Byfield's goals this year: