Who do you build around: Draisaitl or Mackinnon?

[4EDM14OIL93]

Just give it a rest. Everyone on the Oilers gets a bump from having McDavid on the team. No one is saying that Draisaitl isn't a great player. He just gets even better results having McDavid on the team. You can watch Draisaitl and McDavid both play, and McDavid is clearly better and drives the play when both are on the ice.

Nah Draisaitl was the better player this year. McDavid was a little off. But it’s just quite hypocritical that you mention those other players lead their teams in points, but when I point out Draisaitl did too, it’s cause of McDavid and I need to give it a rest

 

[BAM]

You're absolutely right. It's not even close.

One of these two players has the following accolades:
2 x 100-point seasons
1 50-goal season
1 Art Ross Trophy
1 Hart Trophy
1 Ted Lindsay Trophy.

Hint: It's not MacKinnon.

One of these players has the pressure of being the best player on their team that opponents game plan for.

The other has always been at best the secondary option on his team for offence and will always be the second player other teams worry about.

I wonder who has it easier....

 

[4EDM14OIL93]

And he's only done that once in his 6 years in the NHL (leading the Oilers in points).

Why are you acting like Drai is better than McDavid? Everyone but Oiler fans apparently don't realize who the most dangerous player is on the Oilers and who teams primarily game-plan for (hint...it's not LD).

I’m not acting like he’s better than McDavid. But he was last year. Shouldn’t be too hard to comprehend

 

[Duke74]

It absolutely blows my mind that some of these antiquated narratives persist about Draisaitl.

I am still reading some posters that actually believe Draisaitl is a product of McDavid. I am wondering if some of those posters just time travelled from 2015. If anyone watched Oiler games, they'd realize that last year he centered his own line from late December onwards. And yes, they play together on the powerplay. God forbid the Oilers actually put their best players together on the powerplay. Should Draisaitl get punished for producing on the powerplay? I thought that the point of the powerplay was to score, but I guess not. Maybe we should discredit Mac's powerplay production too because he plays with Rantanen, Landeskog, and Makar. Finally, while Draisaitl has McDavid on his team, it's McDavid and nothing else; MacKinnon, while not having a player the caliber of McDavid, has a much deeper team around him. And yes, the Avs lost many important players to injuries but the Oilers had their fair share of injuries, none other than McDavid himself. Nuge, Yamamoto, Neal, Kassian, and Klefbom also missed some time.

Secondly, I keep reading about Draisaitl's deplorable defense. Yes, his defense was poor last season. But that doesn't mean he can't or won't defend. The problem is that the Oilers, a team more shallow than a kiddie pool last season, relied on two and only two players to score. As a result, those two players sometimes neglected their defensive responsibilities to cheat for offense. However, I don't hear the same criticism levelled at McDavid, as he struggled defensively last year as well. This year, they have more depth, so hopefully he (and McDavid) puts more effort into the defensive side of the game.

I don't mind criticism of Draisaitl. What I do mind is people constantly moving the goalposts and creating different sets of standards for players to forward their agenda of discrediting a particular player.

I thought after winning the trifecta of awards he'd garner a little more respect but I was sorely mistaken.

 

[Duke74]

One of these players has the pressure of being the best player on their team that opponents game plan for.

The other has always been at best the secondary option on his team for offence and will always be the second player other teams worry about.

I wonder who has it easier....

You're forgetting that Draisaitl plays on his own line. He no longer plays with McDavid. In fact, they don't even play together in overtime anymore. And while McDavid was injured, Draisaitl faced elite competition and passed with flying colors, going 2 PPG during McDavid's absence.

The second hole in your argument is that an entire realm of sportswriters AND players voted on these awards. If McDavid, on his separate line, faced so much more elite competition than Draisaitl, wouldn't they recognize this and award McDavid the Hart and Lindsay?

 

[GOilers88]

Lol. Lots of players get hacked down for scoring points on the PP with superstars. You want to talk about the Sedins, how about Anson Carter?

I'm not saying that Draisaitl is on the level of Anson Carter, but his numbers clearly get a bump from playing with McDavid, as do many players on the Oilers.

You're also referring to the players that lead their teams in points, with the exception of Malkin.

I'm not talking about one off players who have career years playing with superstars and neither are you guys.

No other top end players are dogged because of who is on their team. The only one I've ever seen it overly used with is Draisaitl and McDavid which is why I listed the names I did. Come to think of it the only place I ever see it is HF main boards, where logical and reasonable discussions go to die a horrible death.

Your assessment of who carried the team last year is also off. Drai was the better player all year. He wasn't carried by anyone. It's the laziest f***ing argument.

I really hope people start poking holes in the games and production of every player who plays on a team with elite talent. If everyone on the Oilers gets a bump because of McDavid, whether they play with him or not, then you might as well say that basically every player in the league is propped up by someone else in some fashion.

I don't know why I post on the mains. This place is such a cesspool of trolls and devoid of any consistency or logic.

 

[blankall]

I'm not talking about one off players who have career years playing with superstars and neither are you guys.

No other top end players are dogged because of who is on their team. The only one I've ever seen it overly used with is Draisaitl and McDavid which is why I listed the names I did. Come to think of it the only place I ever see it is HF main boards, where logical and reasonable discussions go to die a horrible death.

Your assessment of who carried the team last year is also off. Drai was the better player all year. He wasn't carried by anyone. It's the laziest f***ing argument.

I really hope people start poking holes in the games and production of every player who plays on a team with elite talent. If everyone on the Oilers gets a bump because of McDavid, whether they play with him or not, then you might as well say that basically every player in the league is propped up by someone else in some fashion.

I don't know why I post on the mains. This place is such a cesspool of trolls and devoid of any consistency or logic.

Lol...So it's illogical to state that a player's numbers may be inflated playing with the best player in the world? Draisaitl is not better than McDavid. I'm sorry. There's no gap in logic here.

If you had to choose one of the other are you stating you would choose Draisaitl? Yes or no?

 

[Machinehead]

MacKinnon is the correct answer.

Offense is close, defense isn't.

 

[Llamamoto]

Lol...So it's illogical to state that a player's numbers may be inflated playing with the best player in the world? Draisaitl is not better than McDavid. I'm sorry. There's no gap in logic here.

If you had to choose one of the other are you stating you would choose Draisaitl? Yes or no?

McDavid's the better player, most Oilers fans agree on that.

But last season, outside of December, Draisaitl was better. McDavid didn't look like himself for a solid portion of the year because of his knee injury.

 

[GOilers88]

Lol...So it's illogical to state that a player's numbers may be inflated playing with the best player in the world? Draisaitl is not better than McDavid. I'm sorry. There's no gap in logic here.

If you had to choose one of the other are you stating you would choose Draisaitl? Yes or no?

It's not illogical at all to say players who play with other elite players will produce better numbers.

But this is never applied to other high end players in the league. Were you as quick to point out how much Kucherovs numbers were inflated playing on a loaded Tampa PP? How about Ovie who has been on loaded teams for over a decade where he sits and waits to rip one timers? Never see anyone detract from him there.

Never see anyone take away from either Sedin twin even though they propped each other up their entire careers.

If MacK was on McDavids team, would you be saying the same things about how MacK's numbers are obviously inflated by playing with McDavid and he isn't that great on his own? I highly doubt many would.

Nobody ever knocks Malkin for being on a PP with Crosby for his entire career. I'm sure that helped inflate his numbers considering Crosby is likely the best of his generation, but they'd probably be far less without that PP time. Like Draisaitl, right?

I'm not saying Drai is as good as Malkin or Ovie, but you can't apply one line of reasoning to Drai while completely ignoring it with other elite players.

Kucherov is a great example in my opinion. Dude is mega talented and deserves the praise he gets. But he plays on the most loaded team in the league and has elite teammates all over the place. But nobody ever takes anything away from him for that, because it's f***ing stupid.

 

[Nolanitis]

Either one would be a great starting point, I favor MacKinnon

 

[CupofOil]

Lol...So it's illogical to state that a player's numbers may be inflated playing with the best player in the world? Draisaitl is not better than McDavid. I'm sorry. There's no gap in logic here.

If you had to choose one of the other are you stating you would choose Draisaitl? Yes or no?

McDavid is better player in general, Draisaitl was the better last year without a shadow of a doubt.
You pick MacKinnon if you're starting a franchise but he's one of very few players you pick over Draisaitl to start a franchise.

I hope this clears things up.

 

[beowulf]

Mackinnon though neither is a wrong answer.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

So much wrong with this post.

Saying Draisaitl may not be a top 15 player is the exact definition of “hacking” him. That is outrageous and you should be embarrassed for even suggesting that as a possibility

And you conveniently got the stats wrong for that 6 game stretch without McDavid. Oilers had a winning record. And how come he has to prove himself more? So he won’t get respect until McDavid basically misses an entire season. That is so dumb and doesn’t make any sense.

Lastly, what in the world has Mack done to be put in the so called Gretzky/Lemieux tier? Absolutely nothing. Maybe he is being a tad overrated

That is literally debatable. You can debate anywhere from 1-15 IMO with him and weve seen it all in the past 2 years. It is peoples opinions. Just because they differ from yours doesnt make them wrong.

I did not convenientally get the stats wrong. McDavid missed 7 total games. 6 in the stretch youre referring too and one at the end of the season. Their record during those games was 3-2-2 (Chi W, TBL L, FLA W, CAR OTW, BOS OTL, MIN L, VGK OTL)

Obviously Gretzky/Lemieux is an exaggeration in the big picture. I was referring to two really good centers on one team, but one being the obvious better player for the entire time together. That is what Gretzky was to Messier, Lemieux to Francis, and McDavid to Draisaitl. And also the concensus here is that MacKinnon is 1-2 with McDavid. You can argue who is 1 and who is 2 all day, but whoever is in third, is a distant but still very respectable third.

Noone is saying hes an awful player or anything. IMO he is behind MacKinnon and you can throw the next dozen players in a hat and shuffle them around (Matthews, Eichel, Kucherov, Point, Barkov, Crosby, Draisaitl, Malkin, Kane, Pasta, Panarin, Ovechkin, Aho, Pettersson). Am I wrong? I do not think Draisaitl has separated himself enough from all of those names yet, where McDavid and MacKinnon have.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

You're forgetting that Draisaitl plays on his own line. He no longer plays with McDavid. In fact, they don't even play together in overtime anymore. And while McDavid was injured, Draisaitl faced elite competition and passed with flying colors, going 2 PPG during McDavid's absence.

The second hole in your argument is that an entire realm of sportswriters AND players voted on these awards. If McDavid, on his separate line, faced so much more elite competition than Draisaitl, wouldn't they recognize this and award McDavid the Hart and Lindsay?

51% of the season was played with McDavid on his line. The difference we proved via wowy that McDavid faced the majority of Elite competition. Here
97% (would be 99%+ if not for McDavids injury) on PP time was spent together. You can argue McDavid is a product of Draisaitl. That would be a new one around here.
Draisaitl did score 12 points (9ES + 3PP) in the 7 games (6 games in Feb, 1 in Mar) McDavid missed. The Oilers went 3-2-2 and Draisaitl was a -1 overall.

The entire sportwriters and players voted and it was very very close between MacKinnon (1162 or 69% 1st pl) and Draisaitl (1309 or 77% 1st pl). McDavid did not get many votes (309 or 19% 1st pl) at all because it is insane to think one player can be more valuable than another on the same team. Right there should give neither Drais or McDavid the honor, but these sportswriters look at stats only and call it a day. They dont break down advanced stats like we have the time to do here. At the end of the day the point differential was too much to overcome and that earned him the trophies. It doesnt equate to wins for the Oilers, but kudos on the trophy case.

 

[GOilers88]

That is literally debatable. You can debate anywhere from 1-15 IMO with him and weve seen it all in the past 2 years. It is peoples opinions. Just because they differ from yours doesnt make them wrong.

I did not convenientally get the stats wrong. McDavid missed 7 total games. 6 in the stretch youre referring too and one at the end of the season. Their record during those games was 3-2-2 (Chi W, TBL L, FLA W, CAR OTW, BOS OTL, MIN L, VGK OTL)

Obviously Gretzky/Lemieux is an exaggeration in the big picture. I was referring to two really good centers on one team, but one being the obvious better player for the entire time together. That is what Gretzky was to Messier, Lemieux to Francis, and McDavid to Draisaitl. And also the concensus here is that MacKinnon is 1-2 with McDavid. You can argue who is 1 and who is 2 all day, but whoever is in third, is a distant but still very respectable third.

Noone is saying hes an awful player or anything. IMO he is behind MacKinnon and you can throw the next dozen players in a hat and shuffle them around (Matthews, Eichel, Kucherov, Point, Barkov, Crosby, Draisaitl, Malkin, Kane, Pasta, Panarin, Ovechkin, Aho, Pettersson). Am I wrong? I do not think Draisaitl has separated himself enough from all of those names yet, where McDavid and MacKinnon have.

I don't think anyone in the group of names you listed, including McDavid, have put a massive gap between themselves and their peers. I certainly don't see what argument you can make that shows Mack has clearly separated himself from the likes of Panarin, Kucherov, Crosby, or Ovie.

In fact all of those guys have more individual hardware AND team hardware that should tell us they've managed to do better this far. But apparently we can't use trophies, team or individual, or stats (because those are inflated by teammates and not indicative of an individual's talent) to assess players value here, so I'm stumped.

 

[topshelf15]

Can it not be both?? lol

 

[Duke74]

The entire sportwriters and players voted and it was very very close between MacKinnon (1162 or 69% 1st pl) and Draisaitl (1309 or 77% 1st pl).

This fact in itself contradicts your (and others') previous AINEC assertion. MacKinnon may (or may not) be the better player, but regardless, the gap is razor-thin.

 

[avsfan9]

It’s pretty much the same as having a choice between Crosby and Malkin. Malkin can be as good or better many nights but 90% of people are taking Crosby.

 

[King K Rool]

Lol...So it's illogical to state that a player's numbers may be inflated playing with the best player in the world? Draisaitl is not better than McDavid. I'm sorry. There's no gap in logic here.

If you had to choose one of the other are you stating you would choose Draisaitl? Yes or no?

My God man

No one is saying Drai is better than McDavid, they are saying Drai was better than McDavid last year. How.Is.This.So.Hard.To.Understand?

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

I don't think anyone in the group of names you listed, including McDavid, have put a massive gap between themselves and their peers. I certainly don't see what argument you can make that shows Mack has clearly separated himself from the likes of Panarin, Kucherov, Crosby, or Ovie.

In fact all of those guys have more individual hardware AND team hardware that should tell us they've managed to do better this far. But apparently we can't use trophies, team or individual, or stats (because those are inflated by teammates and not indicative of an individual's talent) to assess players value here, so I'm stumped.

I agree none of these guys are Gretzky to the rest of the league, but McDavid and MacKinnon are the clear 1-2 and I think that has been proven to be the general thought around here as of today. Sure one season can change that just like one season pushed Drais way up the list in your opinion from that group I mentioned, where in my opinion I need another season like that proving it and even then the McDavid factor is hard to ignore.

 

[blankall]

My God man

No one is saying Drai is better than McDavid, they are saying Drai was better than McDavid last year. How.Is.This.So.Hard.To.Understand?

Do you or do you not think that having McDavid on the same team helped Draisaitl last year?

 

[4EDM14OIL93]

That is literally debatable. You can debate anywhere from 1-15 IMO with him and weve seen it all in the past 2 years. It is peoples opinions. Just because they differ from yours doesnt make them wrong.

I did not convenientally get the stats wrong. McDavid missed 7 total games. 6 in the stretch youre referring too and one at the end of the season. Their record during those games was 3-2-2 (Chi W, TBL L, FLA W, CAR OTW, BOS OTL, MIN L, VGK OTL)

Obviously Gretzky/Lemieux is an exaggeration in the big picture. I was referring to two really good centers on one team, but one being the obvious better player for the entire time together. That is what Gretzky was to Messier, Lemieux to Francis, and McDavid to Draisaitl. And also the concensus here is that MacKinnon is 1-2 with McDavid. You can argue who is 1 and who is 2 all day, but whoever is in third, is a distant but still very respectable third.

Noone is saying hes an awful player or anything. IMO he is behind MacKinnon and you can throw the next dozen players in a hat and shuffle them around (Matthews, Eichel, Kucherov, Point, Barkov, Crosby, Draisaitl, Malkin, Kane, Pasta, Panarin, Ovechkin, Aho, Pettersson). Am I wrong? I do not think Draisaitl has separated himself enough from all of those names yet, where McDavid and MacKinnon have.

How has Draisaitl not separated himself from the likes of Matthews, Eichel, Barkov, Aho, Pettersson, current Ovi, etc? Please tell me how. He was on pace for nearly 130 points, and already has a 50 goal season under his belt

 

[4EDM14OIL93]

Do you or do you not think that having McDavid on the same team helped Draisaitl last year?

Having good players on your team helps, yes. However you keep ignoring that Draisaitl was the better of the two last year. Why is having good players on your team a negative? And why does it only apply to Oilers players?

 

[McVespa99]

I guess I have a hard time believing that the oilers have two players the are better to build around than MacKinnon but still end up with worse overall results. I know that’s just going to get spun back around to blaming (mis)management, but how incompetent do you have to be to squander seasons where you have two players better than MacKinnon?

Hockey is the ultimate team game. A team with no stars but great depth will win most times. The Oilers have had 0 depth for years. Also in hockey the best forwards play less than 35% of the game. That means your depth players are on most of the game. If that is "spin" so be it.
To answer your last question you have to be Chiarelli level incompetent