Which of these is the Senators franchise worst decision of all time?

[MainDotC]

Though brust and Keller were huge mistakes, I think trading away John emmons a for Craig Millar was our biggest mistake.

Ah yes, the Emmons for Millar trade. That's one that will always burn a whole in each Sens fan's stomach.

 

[Back in Black]

I miss KELLY. Chiarelli ain't a stupid man!

 

[supsens]

First off Chara left and we didn't pick anyone over anyone, so that was bad luck for the sens and not any kind of decision other then the one chara made.

But hands down the worst move the sens ever made was trading Tugger for Barrasso

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

First off Chara left and we didn't pick anyone over anyone, so that was bad luck for the sens and not any kind of decision other then the one chara made.

But hands down the worst move the sens ever made was trading Tugger for Barrasso

No. There was only enough cap space to accommodate one. They were both 7+ million dollar defenders at the time and we had team brimming with elite talent with big contracts or in need of big contracts very soon. Simple economics.

Redden accepted the hometown discount at a short term and that was it. There was no way we could match the offers he'd get in free agency once the decision was made (despite Murray and the rest of the staff begging to choose Chara).

I'm glad we could beat another horse to death on this issue though.

 

[KarlssonnSchultz]

Hossa for Heatley created arguably the best line we've seen in the NHL post lockout and was key in the team getting farther than it ever has before. Not even remotely close to being even considered a bad decision let alone WORST decision.

While on ice performance (4 years worth) is clearly the main way to judge a trade, I think that all the other factors do effect it. We traded a guy who loved being here and was loved by all, had a 29 goal season as well as three 30+ and one 40 goal season for a guy who at the time had one 40 goal season. One player was known around the league as a great guy, the other had some clear baggage coming with him. Instead of having Hossa until probably the time he retired, we got 4 good years out of Heatley and then turned him in to Michalek.

Another thing.. Marian Hossa was ALWAYS a better player than Dany Heatley. I don't care what anyone says I don't understand how someone could disagree.

So while I agree, the trade worked VERY well for the sens over 4 years, as a whole we traded the likely (I say likely because I know neither of them) better person, the better player, and the player that wanted to stay here more, and ended up with 2 great years and 2 decent years from an *******.

 

[Micklebot]

While on ice performance (4 years worth) is clearly the main way to judge a trade, I think that all the other factors do effect it. We traded a guy who loved being here and was loved by all, had a 29 goal season as well as three 30+ and one 40 goal season for a guy who at the time had one 40 goal season. One player was known around the league as a great guy, the other had some clear baggage coming with him. Instead of having Hossa until probably the time he retired, we got 4 good years out of Heatley and then turned him in to Michalek.

Another thing.. Marian Hossa was ALWAYS a better player than Dany Heatley. I don't care what anyone says I don't understand how someone could disagree.

So while I agree, the trade worked VERY well for the sens over 4 years, as a whole we traded the likely (I say likely because I know neither of them) better person, the better player, and the player that wanted to stay here more, and ended up with 2 great years and 2 decent years from an *******.

The trade also helped out a financially strapped team. Hossa was newly inked at 6 mil while we got 2 or 3 years of Heatley at something like 3.5.

 

[KarlssonnSchultz]

The trade also helped out a financially strapped team. Hossa was newly inked at 6 mil while we got 2 or 3 years of Heatley at something like 3.5.

Fair enough, I think my hatred for Heatley since like 2000 kind of clouds my judgment.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

The trade also helped out a financially strapped team. Hossa was newly inked at 6 mil while we got 2 or 3 years of Heatley at something like 3.5.

"Cap strapped" I believe would be a lot more appropriate here than financially strapped. We were right up against the cap for years. No team was more impacted by the salary cap than the Ottawa Senators, which is a horrible irony given the spirit of the cap in the first place. Casualties including Chara, Havlat, Hossa, Preissing.

 

[Back in Black]

"Cap strapped" I believe would be a lot more appropriate here than financially strapped. We were right up against the cap for years. No team was more impacted by the salary cap than the Ottawa Senators, which is a horrible irony given the spirit of the cap in the first place. Casualties including Chara, Havlat, Hossa, Preissing.

The irony of being near the top of the cap is, we were a Cup contender, and now we are a first/second round exit team, with $20 Million cap to play with.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

The irony of being near the top of the cap is, we were a Cup contender, and now we are a first/second round exit team, with $20 Million cap to play with.

We were a first/second round exit team while spending to the cap as well, and spending a lot more in real dollars than we were a real contender. We were a lottery team while spending to the cap as well.

The irony is that the cap was created to help small market teams keep up with large markets who can spend unlimited amounts of money (see: NFL). The timing of it tore apart our team (the smallest NHL market) because so many great players were due raises in Ottawa and they were either forced to let them walk or trade (see: Chara, Havlat). It actually ended up hurting us more than helping us.

 

[Back in Black]

Yes, all while under Murray's watch!

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Yes, all while under Murray's watch!

I can see there isn't a sensible conversation to be had here.

I often wonder what it must be like though.

 

[John Holmes*]

OP must be trolling, can't be serious



Well, people easily forget the reality parts. WE HAD TO CHOOSE between Fisher and Vermette, and we chose to keep Fisher. We were very tight to the cap back then and both were or were going to be paid like 2nd line centers.

Leclaire busted because of injuries mostly, but Sens brass salvaged the trade by making a glorious pick in the draft... Murray's brass also somewhat offset the Havlat by picking up Wiercioch. A 2nd round pick doesn't have a ton of value but if you make a good pick, then it's all good



Reality is that most NHL trades don't end up as WINS or LOSSES. Vermette/Leclaire didn't help in the short term but will in the long term thanks for that extra 2nd. So for me, it's not a trade that worked well right away, but it did after a few years, there's no notion about a "win" or "loss".

Why do you keep saying it was Fisher or Vermette?

We lost the trade, and badly. Then after not being able to "afford" Vermette, Murray goes and signs Kovalev for more money?

Then goes on his annual hunt for a "top 6 forward".

Yeah OK.

 

[OmniSens]

I find the Heatley trade worked real good in our favor. Might be the Heatley homer inside me.

I'll go with Redden/Chara.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

The Vermette trade was a great move in my opinion. Two potential franchise goaltenders for a guy who didn't look like he was ever going to fulfill his potential with this team. It was a gamble totally worth taking and its worked out.

 

[HavlatMach9]

time heals wounds that past decisions don't really matter to me, except signing and trading Hossa was a really crummy thing to do.

 

[supsens]

No. There was only enough cap space to accommodate one. They were both 7+ million dollar defenders at the time and we had team brimming with elite talent with big contracts or in need of big contracts very soon. Simple economics.

Redden accepted the hometown discount at a short term and that was it. There was no way we could match the offers he'd get in free agency once the decision was made (despite Murray and the rest of the staff begging to choose Chara).

I'm glad we could beat another horse to death on this issue though.

Speaking of beating a horse to death, simple economics you said it yourself.
And don't even act like Murray begged anyone to do anything, the guy has ran the sens into the ground and set the bar knee high.

How many years has he been in charge? One playoff win in all that time.... YAY
and don't even say "rebuild" he traded a couple third liners away, and brought in old high priced UFA's, the only part of it that was a "rebuild" is the low finish in the standings.
Same thing again this year, our best prospect, one of our other best prospects and a first, for a short term rental. Can you say contract year for a desperate Murray?

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Speaking of beating a horse to death, simple economics you said it yourself.
And don't even act like Murray begged anyone to do anything, the guy has ran the sens into the ground and set the bar knee high.

How many years has he been in charge? One playoff win in all that time.... YAY
and don't even say "rebuild" he traded a couple third liners away, and brought in old high priced UFA's, the only part of it that was a "rebuild" is the low finish in the standings.
Same thing again this year, our best prospect, one of our other best prospects and a first, for a short term rental. Can you say contract year for a desperate Murray?

You'll have a hard time finding people here who will agree with you on this. Poll the main, board and you'll find the best around these parts consider Murray to be one of the best in the business.

But hey, its easy to forget about guys like Maclean, Turris, Methot, Karlsson, Ryan, Conacher and Lehner. Run into the ground indeed. Who cares about context or reality?

 

[HavlatMach9]

And don't even act like Murray begged anyone to do anything, the guy has ran the sens into the ground and set the bar knee high.

And he was about to be fired, but had a plan and looks to have turned our team around.

How many years has he been in charge? One playoff win in all that time.... YAY

He took on a team whose most important players were declining, and as we're unable to attract core free agents (not that they that good anyways), our decline in retrospect is understandable without strong prospects.

and don't even say "rebuild" he traded a couple third liners away, and brought in old high priced UFA's, the only part of it that was a "rebuild" is the low finish in the standings.

You're mixing two different times. Old UFAs were signed before the rebuild and they weren't able to turn the team into a contender. Then a rebuild was necessary. In hindsight, keeping the veterans during the rebuild helped the team grow quicker with the help of Gonchar/Alfie/Phillips

Same thing again this year, our best prospect, one of our other best prospects and a first, for a short term rental. Can you say contract year for a desperate Murray?

Hmm? Same thing? It's the first time recently Ottawa has made a significant trade to bring real talent. Without a 1st liner winger, the Sens aren't going anywhere, call it Murray's bet to make us our team real good.

And Murray may be desperate, but not for another contract, but to be successful before he hangs it up.

 

[YNWA14]

Yashin for Spezza and Chara. Spezza is a terrible captain and Chara left us to go win a cup. This left us with nothing.

 

[Xspyrit]

The trade also helped out a financially strapped team. Hossa was newly inked at 6 mil while we got 2 or 3 years of Heatley at something like 3.5.

It was 4.5, like Spezza

The irony of being near the top of the cap is, we were a Cup contender, and now we are a first/second round exit team, with $20 Million cap to play with.

Calm down a bit, we made it farther than 2nd round only twice in modern history (2002-03 & 2006-07)

Why do you keep saying it was Fisher or Vermette?

We lost the trade, and badly. Then after not being able to "afford" Vermette, Murray goes and signs Kovalev for more money?

Then goes on his annual hunt for a "top 6 forward".

Simply because it's a cold straight fact?

Both were centers (and weren't very effective as Wingers). Fisher had a 4.2 cap hit and Vermette was due for another raise (makes 3.75 now), we simply couldn't afford both without leaving other holes (again no quality prospects who could have come out cheap to fill holes). Kovalev was a winger.

Vermette had a great season in 2009-10 with Nash but averaged 41 pts per 82 games the following 3 years. Sounds like tweener numbers... Kovalev averaged 48 pts per 82 games with the Sens, could have been better if the team didn't suck that much offensively in 2010-11

We didn't make out great on deal because of Leclaire incapacity to stay healthy but we easily salvaged this deal with Lehner...

But keep thinking XBOX style and ok we "lost" the trade if you want.

Speaking of beating a horse to death, simple economics you said it yourself.
And don't even act like Murray begged anyone to do anything, the guy has ran the sens into the ground and set the bar knee high.

How many years has he been in charge? One playoff win in all that time.... YAY
and don't even say "rebuild" he traded a couple third liners away, and brought in old high priced UFA's, the only part of it that was a "rebuild" is the low finish in the standings.
Same thing again this year, our best prospect, one of our other best prospects and a first, for a short term rental. Can you say contract year for a desperate Murray?

I could spend a lot of time explaining the context but is it really worth it? Going to pass on this lol. I don't feel like it's worth it.

But I'll say one thing at least to (hopefully) make you think a little deeper. Any NHL team that doesn't have a good prospect will eventually be forced to rebuild... Check our 2002-2007 drafting just for fun.

 

[DylanSensFan]

Yes, all while under Murray's watch!

you're simply a fool for even bothering to make this comment.

 

[guyzeur]

Not drafting Pronger,
Not keeping Chara
Trading Pavol Demitra
Drafting Lee



Trading Hossa
Trading Havlat



Hiring Pierre Gauthier
Hiring John Muckler

 

[The Fuhr*]

When BM took over we had assets like the San Jose Sharks... If he was better at what he did he could have kept the core of the cup team together and systematically added youth over the years like the Sharks.

Dude also traded
Silvferberg, Noesen and a 1st that could be lottery for Ryan a UFA in two seasons... Silvferberg may end up out scoring Ryan this year.

 

[Xspyrit]

When BM took over we had assets like the San Jose Sharks... If he was better at what he did he could have kept the core of the cup team together and systematically added youth over the years like the Sharks.

Well while you're saying that, maybe you don't even believe it (well I hope), but it fits your agenda like it always had.

I will bring a little bit of context (but more for other people), just compare rosters in 2006-07 and 2007-08. Murray kept the same players except :

Peter Schaefer : only played 79 NHL games after he left Ottawa. Good foresight from Murray to dump his salary and get back a cheap and useful player (Donovan)

Tom Preissing : only played 103 NHL games after he left Ottawa. Again, good foresight from Murray to not re-sign him after a "wonderful statistical season", he got 2.75 per (2.75 was more significant than it is today) from the Kings for 4 years and didn't even come close to live up to the contract. Dodged another bullet.

Mike Comrie : another player that quickly fade away. He made 7.375 total the following 2 years with the Isles, but it doesn't look like it was really worth it in the end. He was a rental for the Sens in 2006-07 (41 games played + playoffs but was UFA). At least, he was worth it for that and we only paid Kaigodorov (good move Muckler!)

Denis Hamel : do I need to write anything?

Oleg Saprykin : another rental, never played in the NHL after

New players in 2007-08 were Foligno, Robitaille, Richardson, Donovan, Bass and a Stillman/Commodore

The Sens started 2007-08 with a 15-2 record, establishing a NHL record. But, the team falled apart after, can it be blamed on Murray? Emery antics, Meszaros and Redden started to regress heavily and Gerber back to being Gerber again. The team finished 1st in scoring again but defense, coaching and goaltending sucked. I blame Murray for the coaching choice, that's it.

After that, he was forced to react and try to right the ship. Corvo (who was sucking that year) wanted out and Eaves (who was probably our best prospect, sigh) was injury-prone and not producing. He traded them for Stillman (provided secondary scoring and made Vermette produce) and Commodore (who unfortunately sucked for us). I doubt many things could have right that sinking ship that year, maybe Crosby. And how do you get elite talent (we needed a #1 D-man on defense) if you don't have assets to trade? Glad we didn't trade our 1st because we drafted Erik Karlsson with a 18th overall pick (traded it with a 3rd to move up and select 15th)

Then, the following year, Heatley fiasco happened and we still had a lackluster prospect pool that forced us to sign all of our players in their prime (and asking for money after the Cup run) with the cap being thighter than ever. Meszaros also asked for too much money as a RFA and forced us to trade him, but he wasn't even close to his play in his rookie year in 2005-06

Finally, Alfie slowly started to decline and couldn't carry the team like he did before (understandable as he was getting old)

The constant was still a lack of good prospects to come in and fill holes adequately and since Ottawa isn't really a favorable UFA destination, there's just not much that you can do. I wish Murray could have signed better UFAs, but in reality, who wants to play in Ottawa? Answer is stars on the decline or 3rd tier players

As most things in life, it's a cycle and there's natural competition. Of course a NHL team can't stay as a contender forever, Devils, Wings and Sens have been the teams that lasted the longest. So really, we have not much to complain (or well, we shouldn't)

So, you see when you put things in context? But you make it seem like you are not able to simply understand, many people repeated it to you ad nauseam but you still come out with the same crap. Clear bias or simply a lack of insight?

Dude also traded
Silvferberg, Noesen and a 1st that could be lottery for Ryan a UFA in two seasons... Silvferberg may end up out scoring Ryan this year.

Remains to be seen, wouldn't be surprised if Ryan will always be the best player in the deal by far. No idea where our ick is going to end (frankly it should be around 15th in a weak draft) and no idea if we can retain Ryan after his 2 years, but it's not like we'll let him go without a fight or try to get assets back. You have to pay to get and we paid. Elite talent has a price, and well you know it, just look at your initial comments regarding the trade...